GAA Infastructure

grbear · 14-10-2020 11:41AM

The plans for Casement look great but at the moment I don't see how they are affordable without significant alteration. Someone has to find another €36 million in order to get that stadium design built. That issue needs to be addressed before people start getting too excited.

Pogue eile · 14-10-2020 12:13PM

grbear wrote: »

The plans for Casement look great but at the moment I don't see how they are affordable without significant alteration. Someone has to find another €36 million in order to get that stadium design built. That issue needs to be addressed before people start getting too excited.

I'm pretty sure the NI assembly have financial obligations to projects like this under the GFA - not that they have a pot to pi*s in either!!

threeball · 14-10-2020 03:39PM

Pogue eile wrote: »

It's a 32 county organisation so yes that is exactly what I am saying! Has a cost-benefit analysis been done on all the stadia in the 26 counties that haven't been filled in the last 20 years?

So you'd like to see an organisation that pushes itself to the edge of financial collapse just so they can throw up another monument. Just repeat all the mistakes of PUC and other pointless stadia just so everyone can have a white elephant. Very intelligent plan you have there.

grbear · 14-10-2020 10:38PM

Pogue eile wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the NI assembly have financial obligations to projects like this under the GFA - not that they have a pot to pi*s in either!!

They've committed £62 million to it at the moment. If they were to meet the GAA halfway on the remainder and up that to £77 million in total then I don't think you'd have to be a member of the TUV to start questioning if thats the best use of limited resources. The plan is a bit of a Field of Dreams, build it and they will come type job. At the moment it's hard to imagine Casement holding multiple games per year with a 10,000+ attendance. There'd be the Ulster final and that'd be about it.

Pete_Cavan · 15-10-2020 08:29AM

A lot of the problem with Casement is the site itself; its confined nature creates problems and pushes up costs, it is also not suitable for having tens of thousands of people descend on it for matches. The chances of this stadium being built were always very slim, for multiple reasons. They should have looked for a different site and either sold Casement for development or created a pitch for local clubs and community facilities there. The dream of the stadium hosting games at the RWC23 is long gone but even then the cost of building a fancy 30k+ stadium with lots of corporate facilities was highly questionable. Antrim GAA need a facility designed around their needs, not a once a year game. For the GAA, spending €6 - 7m on a new main stand in Clones would be far better value than throwing €30m at the Casement white elephant.

Pogue eile · 15-10-2020 10:27AM

threeball wrote: »

So you'd like to see an organisation that pushes itself to the edge of financial collapse just so they can throw up another monument. Just repeat all the mistakes of PUC and other pointless stadia just so everyone can have a white elephant. Very intelligent plan you have there.

To be fair I may have misinterpreted your original post that I quotes, I mistakenly thought that you were suggesting it was a waste because it was located in Antrim.

I actually agree with you that we have far far too many large stadia that for the most part go unused. I personally think that each county should have a 20-25k stadium and have one 45-50k stadium in each province that is owned by the provincial council - the reason that most counties want the big stadium is to make sure that another county doesn't get all the big games and gate receipts.

Look at Munster alone - Killarney, Gaelic Grounds, Parc de Frank and Semple Stadium - in any given year one at the most will be filled.

threeball · 15-10-2020 04:16PM

Pogue eile wrote: »

To be fair I may have misinterpreted your original post that I quotes, I mistakenly thought that you were suggesting it was a waste because it was located in Antrim.

I actually agree with you that we have far far too many large stadia that for the most part go unused. I personally think that each county should have a 20-25k stadium and have one 45-50k stadium in each province that is owned by the provincial council - the reason that most counties want the big stadium is to make sure that another county doesn't get all the big games and gate receipts.

Look at Munster alone - Killarney, Gaelic Grounds, Parc de Frank and Semple Stadium - in any given year one at the most will be filled.

Yes that was the crux of my argument. I'm of the same belief as you, one central 40-45k stadium to Croke park specs and standards in each province and I think counties should really not be looking to develop anything over 10-15k as they're a waste of money. Small stadia to a high standard suitable for club and county is far preferable to empty monoliths which give atmosphere to nothing.

willietherock · 15-10-2020 04:33PM

threeball wrote: »

So you'd like to see an organisation that pushes itself to the edge of financial collapse just so they can throw up another monument. Just repeat all the mistakes of PUC and other pointless stadia just so everyone can have a white elephant. Very intelligent plan you have there.

Nothing pointless about the likes of PUC, badly needed to accomodate Cork hurling massive support base.

threeball · 15-10-2020 04:56PM

willietherock wrote: »

Nothing pointless about the likes of PUC, badly needed to accomodate Cork hurling massive support base.

Tell me, how many times was PUC filled or even 75% filled since it opened?

willietherock · 15-10-2020 06:02PM

threeball wrote: »

Tell me, how many times was PUC filled or even 75% filled since it opened?

There was 30k + at the first group game v Tipp last yr. Same the yr before for Limerick. Any home Munster hurling final will be a complete sell out. Clare/Waterford expect ~20k Even the footballers going well will see Kerry every 2nd yr and 1 super 8 home match ~ 20k odd . All this for a "pointless" stadium.

BonnieSituation · 15-10-2020 06:13PM

willietherock wrote: »

Nothing pointless about the likes of PUC, badly needed to accomodate Cork hurling massive support base.

The sheer amount of money that PUC cost is what's pointless and still managed to have no roof on it.

PUC needed the upgrade but it didn't need to waste so much money on what we got.

Coillte_Bhoy · 15-10-2020 06:28PM

Pogue eile wrote: »

To be fair I may have misinterpreted your original post that I quotes, I mistakenly thought that you were suggesting it was a waste because it was located in Antrim.

Well thats exactly why i think it's a waste

Pogue eile wrote: »

I actually agree with you that we have far far too many large stadia that for the most part go unused. I personally think that each county should have a 20-25k stadium and have one 45-50k stadium in each province that is owned by the provincial council - the reason that most counties want the big stadium is to make sure that another county doesn't get all the big games and gate receipts.

Look at Munster alone - Killarney, Gaelic Grounds, Parc de Frank and Semple Stadium - in any given year one at the most will be filled.

Massive contradiction there in fairness. If there were to be a few 45k in strategic locations then there would be little need of 25k ones. 15/18k for the bigger counties maybe but for the smaller counties 10k would certainly be enough. I stand to be corrected but i think that outside of Dublin, only Mayo has drawn a 15k+ crowd for an NFL game

threeball · 15-10-2020 07:36PM

willietherock wrote: »

There was 30k + at the first group game v Tipp last yr. Same the yr before for Limerick. Any home Munster hurling final will be a complete sell out. Clare/Waterford expect ~20k Even the footballers going well will see Kerry every 2nd yr and 1 super 8 home match ~ 20k odd . All this for a "pointless" stadium.

So one game every year at 60% capacity and the odd one at 40% capacity is worth €110m in your world. No wonder the Cork finances are fcuked. You haven't a hurling or a football team in the top 6 at the moment yet 110m was better spent on a vanity project. How about they built 25k for the people that actually come rather than the imaginary 20k that never show up and save 50 million.

Pete_Cavan · 15-10-2020 09:00PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Massive contradiction there in fairness. If there were to be a few 45k in strategic locations then there would be little need of 25k ones. 15/18k for the bigger counties maybe but for the smaller counties 10k would certainly be enough. I stand to be corrected but i think that outside of Dublin, only Mayo has drawn a 15k+ crowd for an NFL game

This thing gets trotted out every so often in this thread but it makes absolutely no sense. It would be more expensive demolishing terraces and then building smaller ones. Leaving existing terraces in place costs little or nothing, even if someone says the capacity is "too much". The focus should be on providing good facilities, not some preconceived capacity.

The 45k "mini Croke Parks" which is often touted would also cost a fortune. Munster already has multiple large stadiums, PUC is brand new but makes no sense to send every big game there, the current set up works well enough. Building a mini CP in Connacht would likely cost >€50m, putting €10m each into McHale and Pearse would be better value. Clones is the home of the Ulster final, it just needs a new main stand. We don't need to build new stadiums, just have sensible investment in existing.

threeball · 15-10-2020 09:34PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This thing gets trotted out every so often in this thread but it makes absolutely no sense. It would be more expensive demolishing terraces and then building smaller ones. Leaving existing terraces in place costs little or nothing, even if someone says the capacity is "too much". The focus should be on providing good facilities, not some preconceived capacity.

The 45k "mini Croke Parks" which is often touted would also cost a fortune. Munster already has multiple large stadiums, PUC is brand new but makes no sense to send every big game there, the current set up works well enough. Building a mini CP in Connacht would likely cost >€50m, putting €10m each into McHale and Pearse would be better value. Clones is the home of the Ulster final, it just needs a new main stand. We don't need to build new stadiums, just have sensible investment in existing.

No one is suggesting tearing down existing stadia but as they come up for refurbishment they should be refurbished to a decent size that lends atmosphere to league and club games. Some counties such as Gslway should sell their stadium at a massive profit and build a more compact stadium with better facilities and location.
There's more to stadia than just their upfront cost, upkeep is the real cost and big stadia costs more to keep. Lots of big stadia cost a hell of a lot to keep.

willietherock · 15-10-2020 09:38PM

threeball wrote: »

So one game every year at 60% capacity and the odd one at 40% capacity is worth €110m in your world. No wonder the Cork finances are fcuked. You haven't a hurling or a football team in the top 6 at the moment yet 110m was better spent on a vanity project. How about they built 25k for the people that actually come rather than the imaginary 20k that never show up and save 50 million.

A 25 k stadium LOL
And where exactly would Cork play Tipp/Lim, Munster hurling finals, Kerry football matches?
Where not talking the likes of Galway footballers here with a relatively small support base. Cork hurlers brought 40k + up to an All Ire semi with 2 yrs ago.

threeball · 15-10-2020 10:07PM

willietherock wrote: »

A 25 k stadium LOL
And where exactly would Cork play Tipp/Lim, Munster hurling finals, Kerry football matches?
Where not talking the likes of Galway footballers here with a relatively small support base. Cork hurlers brought 40k + up to an All Ire semi with 2 yrs ago.

The only thing lol is your overinflated sense of importance and the figures you throw about. 3yrs in and you haven't filled your own stadium yet. If you're only reaching an AISF once a decade its no wonder a crowd shows up

willietherock · 15-10-2020 11:36PM

threeball wrote: »

The only thing lol is your overinflated sense of importance and the figures you throw about. 3yrs in and you haven't filled your own stadium yet. If you're only reaching an AISF once a decade its no wonder a crowd shows up

Typical snowflake Galway football type. Don't like it up 'em.

threeball · 15-10-2020 11:55PM

willietherock wrote: »

Typical snowflake Galway football type. Don't like it up 'em.

Cork aren't fit to put it up to anyone at the moment.

Pete_Cavan · 16-10-2020 07:27AM

threeball wrote: »

No one is suggesting tearing down existing stadia but as they come up for refurbishment they should be refurbished to a decent size that lends atmosphere to league and club games. Some counties such as Gslway should sell their stadium at a massive profit and build a more compact stadium with better facilities and location.
There's more to stadia than just their upfront cost, upkeep is the real cost and big stadia costs more to keep. Lots of big stadia cost a hell of a lot to keep.

In most county grounds, 80% or more of capacity is provided by concrete terraces which last a very long time and have little maintenance costs. If need to you can break out concrete and pour new, to reduce capacity you would need to demolish and rebuild which would cost more for no benefit. Again, the focus shouldn't be on capacity, it should be on facilities.

threeball · 16-10-2020 08:24AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

In most county grounds, 80% or more of capacity is provided by concrete terraces which last a very long time and have little maintenance costs. If need to you can break out concrete and pour new, to reduce capacity you would need to demolish and rebuild which would cost more for no benefit. Again, the focus shouldn't be on capacity, it should be on facilities.

Facilities includes seating and shelter. Its one of the first requirements, so 80% terrace does not cut the mustard.

Pogue eile · 16-10-2020 10:38AM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Massive contradiction there in fairness. If there were to be a few 45k in strategic locations then there would be little need of 25k ones. 15/18k for the bigger counties maybe but for the smaller counties 10k would certainly be enough. I stand to be corrected but i think that outside of Dublin, only Mayo has drawn a 15k+ crowd for an NFL game

I fail to see the contradiction myself. These 'county grounds' that I am talking about are already in place. And not sure why you are limiting stadiums to National Football League games only?

Pete_Cavan · 16-10-2020 12:57PM

threeball wrote: »

Facilities includes seating and shelter. Its one of the first requirements, so 80% terrace does not cut the mustard.

If you want to replace terraces because they don't "cut the mustard" then you are talking about "tearing down existing stadia", or at least large parts of them, which you previously said you weren't talking about. Replacing a terrace with a seated and sheltered stand is a multi million euro project, I thought the objective here was to save money?

Hawkeye9212 · 16-10-2020 03:09PM

willietherock wrote: »

A 25 k stadium LOL
And where exactly would Cork play Tipp/Lim, Munster hurling finals, Kerry football matches?
Where not talking the likes of Galway footballers here with a relatively small support base. Cork hurlers brought 40k + up to an All Ire semi with 2 yrs ago.

Semple Stadium/Gaelic Grounds for Munster SFs and final.

beggars_bush · 16-10-2020 09:38PM

threeball wrote: »

Facilities includes seating and shelter. Its one of the first requirements, so 80% terrace does not cut the mustard.

I prefer standing at a game

Coillte_Bhoy · 16-10-2020 10:16PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This thing gets trotted out every so often in this thread but it makes absolutely no sense. It would be more expensive demolishing terraces and then building smaller ones. Leaving existing terraces in place costs little or nothing, even if someone says the capacity is "too much". The focus should be on providing good facilities, not some preconceived capacity.

The 45k "mini Croke Parks" which is often touted would also cost a fortune. Munster already has multiple large stadiums, PUC is brand new but makes no sense to send every big game there, the current set up works well enough. Building a mini CP in Connacht would likely cost >€50m, putting €10m each into McHale and Pearse would be better value. Clones is the home of the Ulster final, it just needs a new main stand. We don't need to build new stadiums, just have sensible investment in existing.

Oh i agree with you, i was just making the point that if there were to be these mini Crokers then we wouldnt also need 25k stadia

Coillte_Bhoy · 16-10-2020 10:20PM

Pogue eile wrote: »

I fail to see the contradiction myself. These 'county grounds' that I am talking about are already in place. And not sure why you are limiting stadiums to National Football League games only?

These county grounds with 20/25k capacity are not in place, without researching, id say about 8 counties have them.

Coillte_Bhoy · 16-10-2020 10:23PM

beggars_bush wrote: »

I prefer standing at a game

So do i but not too many covered terraces out there

threeball · 16-10-2020 11:50PM

beggars_bush wrote: »

I prefer standing at a game

You'd have the option of that whilst those that want to sit would have that option too. Terraces should be covered in my opinion.

Coillte_Bhoy · 17-10-2020 12:41AM

threeball wrote: »

You'd have the option of that whilst those that want to sit would have that option too. Terraces should be covered in my opinion.

Absolutley, and we dont need the whole ground covered but next time a Co Board is looking at upgrading their ground, covering enough terracing, that with a stand might keep 12-15k people dry would be an idea and if that cost means letting 10k of terracing that will rarely be used go to ruin, then so be it

GAA Infastructure

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