Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Ginger n Lemon · 15-10-2020 02:26PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

A lot don't even need that when working from home. I bought a few plain t-sh1rts online thats about all since the start of the year.

Clothes retailers have been under pressure from online however so it may not be all down to covid. Personally I don't really get buying loads of clothes online as sizes vary so much I always need to try things on so I would not like to see clothes retailers disappear.

:D:D

Love it

_Kaiser_ · 15-10-2020 02:28PM

Just like Golfgate, it's do as we say not as we do for our boys and girls at the top:

TDs have been given a “severe rebuke” for failing to comply with Covid-19 guidelines and rules and, in some instances, abusing compliance staff in Leinster House and the Convention Centre.

A private meeting of the Dáil’s business committee heard what was described as a “damning” briefing from an Oireachtas’s director of compliance on Wednesday on the poor level of adherence to rules like social distancing and wearing masks in parliament.

The official specifically cited a picture published in Wednesday’s newspapers of Ministers Paschal Donohoe and Michael McGrath ascending the Convention Centre escalator ahead of their Budget day speeches without wearing face coverings.

Instances such as people moving furniture that was spaced out for social distancing and failing to keep two-metres apart were also raised in a report that was delivered verbally to the business committee on Wednesday.

The official specifically raised serious concerns about a lack of mask wearing, poor social distancing by groups of TDs within Leinster House and the movement of furniture in the Dáil canteen.

The Oireachtas have also received complaints from staff in the Dublin Convention Centre over TDs failing to comply with Covid regulations. Leinster House Covid-19 compliance officers have said they have been met with resistance from some TD when they have asked them to adhere to the regulations.

“They haven’t been met with best cooperation,” a source said. “There have been examples of people meeting in groups and not standing part and when they have been asked to maintain a social distancing they have laughed at the suggestion."

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 02:29PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Yeap, and we want sensible well thought out guidance based on solid science...not made up on a sticky note in some office in Merrion street.

The economy apart from the export sector is stagnant and declining, so lets cut the carp like these silly restrictions and get down to guidance that works.

I`m not that sure or economy is that stagnant. Especially when compared to others. Even those that choose an alternative route to ours.
Our GDP figures for the period of our lockdown were better than many others and the fall in income tax revenue was low.
But if you have a proposal based on well thought out guidance based on solid science then I would genuinely like to hear it.

CalamariFritti · 15-10-2020 02:34PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-face-masks-what-you-need-to-know

https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/13/covid-19-experts-masks-are-as-important-as-a-vaccine.html

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0714-americans-to-wear-masks.html

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

https://files.fast.ai/papers/masks_lit_review.pdf

and any amount of other sources if you look.

Been through this on the other thread.

Did you actually read any of these? Full of strong language but when it comes to actual evidence its all coulds, shoulds and mays. The odd time they stretch to an indicates.

Penfailed · 15-10-2020 02:35PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

that 15% is 30.9.2020

before countrywide level 3, 3 counties L4 now.

Before pamela scott announcement too

So you made up the 25% figure?

Tenzor07 · 15-10-2020 02:41PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I`m not that sure or economy is that stagnant. Especially when compared to others. Even those that choose an alternative route to ours.
Our GDP figures for the period of our lockdown were better than many others and the fall in income tax revenue was low.
But if you have a proposal based on well thought out guidance based on solid science then I would genuinely like to hear it.

I'm sure there's an economics student on here who can explain in detail.... But the GDP figures are artificially inflated by the pharma and tech export market, they don't reflect the domestic economy, which is one of the worst in Europe: https://www.thejournal.ie/pandemic-lockdown-economic-forecast-5226321-Oct2020/

Let's look at what our successful EU neighbors have done to manage the virus and retain as much of the economy as possible..

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 02:42PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Are you now saying we have 80% immunity from a BCG vaccine where the only evidence on it being in anyway connected to the prevention of infection is of the could be, maybe who knows variety.

No that's not what I'm saying, we have an average death age with Covid of 89 years of age, I'm making an assumption they never had the BCG or MMR vaccine.
If those vaccines which most of our population have had from the 50's on are effective we stand a good chance of it not killing the 120,000 Irish people by December the Irish Independent were predicting in February without any restrictions outside of care environments.
There's a load of things in the mix, weather, humidity indoors, whether your blood type A or O and so on.

I honestly believe what we have is a major overreaction to the benefits of restrictions that are tearing everything we've worked for over the last 12 years to shreds.

darconio · 15-10-2020 02:54PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Absolute lunacy.
It shows that the other 90% have not been infected.

In my opinion it could also mean that a percentage is immune, a percentage is asymptomatic (and hence doesn't feel the necessity of being violated by this test) and the majority already had it/have it with mild symptoms comparable with the standard influenza/cold.

I'll quote myself for a break down of these big numbers

darconio wrote: »

I'm not very good at math, and I will probably make some mistakes in my calculation, however I wanted to break down these 800 cases that the media are so eager to feed us on a daily basis.

According to this chart we are currently testing 3 people every 1000

On a Dublin population of 1.3 million means that we had nearly 4000 people tested (how that number is achieved is beyond me but let's assume it's real)
Of these 4000 we had about 300 tested positive : that's 7.5% people with the deadly virus

Calculating this over a population of 1.3 million would mean that potentially around 100.000 people are already infected. This is only a daily count so according to the numbers and to the daily infection rate in 10 days we could have the whole Dublin population infected. Because remember: you just need to go out without ppe and touch the same apple in lidl that was touched by one of these plagued individuals (shame on them!) and that's it, you are going to die.

With these big numbers it's clear that:

- We are doomed: lockdown or not lockdown it's already too late, we probably have already the deadly virus, the fact that only 1 person died with the covid yesterday it's irrelevant, we are all going to die, but our hands will be spotless and it doesn't matter if our last words will be muffled by a face covering.

-If the above is not true, then means that the testing for corona is not reporting correctly or, amazingly, that covid-19 is not as deadly or scary as they want us to believe

This was 2 days ago, the fact that the daily number of positive has increased since, only means that the above was not only an assumption, but instead was not that far from reality.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 02:56PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No that's not what I'm saying, we have an average death age with Covid of 89 years of age, I'm making an assumption they never had the BCG or MMR vaccine.
If those vaccines which most of our population have had from the 50's on are effective we stand a good chance of it not killing the 120,000 Irish people by December the Irish Independent were predicting in February without any restrictions outside of care environments.
There's a load of things in the mix, weather, humidity indoors, whether your blood type A or O and so on.

I honestly believe what we have is a major overreaction to the benefits of restrictions that are tearing everything we've worked for over the last 12 years to shreds.

So in essence no scientific prove to back it up your BCG theory, and contrary to all the evidence on acquired herd immunity your just guessing on both.
I`m afraid when it comes down to the guesswork of a random individual and science for myself personally, I`ll go with science if it`s all the same to you.

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 03:05PM

charlie14 wrote: »

So in essence no scientific prove to back it up your BCG theory, and contrary to all the evidence on acquired herd immunity your just guessing on both.
I`m afraid when it comes down to the guesswork of a random individual and science for myself personally, I`ll go with science if it`s all the same to you.

Will you do me a favour and google "covid bcg" and come back with your findings on the science, you appear to have not looked at any.

CalamariFritti · 15-10-2020 03:08PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Absolute lunacy.
It shows that the other 90% have not been infected.
If you believe this figure of 80% immunity is anywhere close to reality then can you explain how we got there.?
We have a population of 5 million. We have less than 40,000 confirmed infections.

80% immunity would mean that 4 million people have been infected and now have immunity. Do you seriously believe that every one of the 40,000 who have been infected in turn infected another 100 people without anyone noticing ?

If that conman Cummings used his crayons for doing the most basic mathematical calculation rather than drawing graphs then he would know that.
But then he is not stupid. He knows that already. But when it comes to feeding the gullible what they want to hear for the sake of publicity, he will happily feed them whatever level of ****e they want.
It`s called playing to the audience. After all who do self styled gurus make their money from othe than the gullible.

You can assume that at the very least you may multiply that number by 10. Even the WHO says so by now. Which puts other numbers into perspective.

paw patrol · 15-10-2020 03:20PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Except of course that herd immunity is unachievable without a vaccine and trying to achieve it would be scandalous.

you think that.
what happens if there is no vaccine.

social distance forever...fcuk that.

15-10-2020 03:39PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Just like Golfgate, it's do as we say not as we do for our boys and girls at the top:

and what about the gardai?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/court-shuts-down-after-senior-member-of-an-garda-siochana-tested-positive-for-covid-19-39625051.html

This lad took a test and went about his business as normal dealing with god knows who in the public arena

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 03:47PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I'm sure there's an economics student on here who can explain in detail.... But the GDP figures are artificially inflated by the pharma and tech export market, they don't reflect the domestic economy, which is one of the worst in Europe: https://www.thejournal.ie/pandemic-lockdown-economic-forecast-5226321-Oct2020/

Let's look at what our successful EU neighbors have done to manage the virus and retain as much of the economy as possible..

We are not the only country that has pharma and tech export companies.Neither are we the only one that plays fast and loose when it comes to taxing them. GDP figures are simply what they are, and we are calculating ours within the set-down requirements. Income tax returns during lockdown strongly suggests that the economy was nowhere near the the level of doom and gloom some were claiming at the time.

That aside I am all in favor of looking at how successful EU neighbors have managed the virus and retained as much of their economy as possible on well thought out guidelines based on solid science as you said earlier.
I`m sure others here are too. Have you any that you feel fits the bill ?

15-10-2020 03:51PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

:D:D

Love it

During lockdown when all clothes shops were closed so had no other option.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 04:04PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You can assume that at the very least you may multiply that number by 10. Even the WHO says so by now. Which puts other numbers into perspective.

That has been the assumption taken by some countries with much higher infection than Ireland on acquiring herd immunity. Unfortunately it has been proven wrong time after time.

But for the crack, lets say you are correct and 400,000 have been infected here. Cummins figure claims I believe that we have herd immunity due to 80% having acquired immunity.
The maths aren`t that difficult.

80% of 5 million is 4 million.
400,000 subtracted from 4 million leaves you short by 3.6 million.

The man may know very little in the field he is now dabbling in as a self promotion vehicle to gain attention for his latest venture in selling his nutritional bs, but as a qualified chemical engineer I would, at the very least, have expected him to be capable of very basic mathematics.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 04:07PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Will you do me a favour and google "covid bcg" and come back with your findings on the science, you appear to have not looked at any.

I have, and long before now. It still states perhaps, maybe and who knows.
Not a very scientific basis for any claim imo.

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-10-2020 04:14PM

charlie14 wrote: »

The man may know very little in the field he is now dabbling in as a self promotion vehicle to gain attention for his latest venture in selling his nutritional bs,.

Roll out this nutritional bs (as you call it) I'd say, the more the better, to reduce the amount of lardies cake eaters.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-s-obesity-rate-among-world-s-worst-1.2594266

Ireland is set to become the most obese country in Europe, with the UK, within a decade, according to a study published in The Lancet.

Irish men already have the highest body mass index (BMI) – a key measure of overweight – in Europe, while Irish women rank third, the study shows.

Almost one-fifth of the world’s obese adults (118 million) live in Ireland and five other high-income English-speaking countries – Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the US.

One-quarter of the world’s severely obese adults live in the same six countries.

By 2025, 37 per cent of Irish women will be obese, just behind 38 per cent in the UK, the study forecasts.
Among men, 38 per cent in Ireland and the UK will be obese.

Obese folks are 200% more likely not to recover from China Flu.
It also makes any final vaccine 50% less effective.
Not great 'figures'.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 04:18PM

darconio wrote: »

In my opinion it could also mean that a percentage is immune, a percentage is asymptomatic (and hence doesn't feel the necessity of being violated by this test) and the majority already had it/have it with mild symptoms comparable with the standard influenza/cold.

I'll quote myself for a break down of these big numbers

This was 2 days ago, the fact that the daily number of positive has increased since, only means that the above was not only an assumption, but instead was not that far from reality.

That is exactly the theory that Giesecke and Tegnell had proping up their herd immunity strategy.
Giesecke even went as far as stating in one to two months the whole country would have achieved herd immunity.
Test results showed that they were never even close. Not even for their epicenter of infections Stockholm. Both nationally and for epicenters in Spain and Italy that used lockdown the figures were actually better. As was France.

Cases are again rising there with over a 1,000 new infections today.

15-10-2020 04:22PM

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I'm sure there's an economics student on here who can explain in detail.... But the GDP figures are artificially inflated by the pharma and tech export market, they don't reflect the domestic economy, which is one of the worst in Europe: https://www.thejournal.ie/pandemic-lockdown-economic-forecast-5226321-Oct2020/

Let's look at what our successful EU neighbors have done to manage the virus and retain as much of the economy as possible..

You are talking like pharma and tech are not massive industries here employing a very large workforce and significantly contributing to the economy including pretty much not being impacted at all by covid, with some benefitting.

charlie14 · 15-10-2020 04:24PM

Natalie Thankful Welt wrote: »

Roll out this nutritional bs (as you call it) I'd say, the more the better, to reduce the amount of lardies cake eaters.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-s-obesity-rate-among-world-s-worst-1.2594266
Ireland is set to become the most obese country in Europe, with the UK, within a decade, according to a study published in The Lancet.

Irish men already have the highest body mass index (BMI) – a key measure of overweight – in Europe, while Irish women rank third, the study shows.

Almost one-fifth of the world’s obese adults (118 million) live in Ireland and five other high-income English-speaking countries – Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the US.

One-quarter of the world’s severely obese adults live in the same six countries.

By 2025, 37 per cent of Irish women will be obese, just behind 38 per cent in the UK, the study forecasts.
Among men, 38 per cent in Ireland and the UK will be obese.
Obese folks are 200% more likely not to recover from China Flu.
It also makes any final vaccine 50% less effective.
Not great 'figures'.

I have no problem with him selling himself as some sort of nutritional guru.

I have a problem with him attempting to sell his 80% immunity BS as a vehicle to promote attention to himself as a nutritional guru.

Real Donald Trump · 15-10-2020 04:25PM

Natalie Thankful Welt wrote: »

Roll out this nutritional bs (as you call it) I'd say, the more the better, to reduce the amount of lardies cake eaters.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ireland-s-obesity-rate-among-world-s-worst-1.2594266
Ireland is set to become the most obese country in Europe, with the UK, within a decade, according to a study published in The Lancet.

Irish men already have the highest body mass index (BMI) – a key measure of overweight – in Europe, while Irish women rank third, the study shows.

Almost one-fifth of the world’s obese adults (118 million) live in Ireland and five other high-income English-speaking countries – Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the US.

One-quarter of the world’s severely obese adults live in the same six countries.

By 2025, 37 per cent of Irish women will be obese, just behind 38 per cent in the UK, the study forecasts.
Among men, 38 per cent in Ireland and the UK will be obese.
Obese folks are 200% more likely not to recover from China Flu.
It also makes any final vaccine 50% less effective.
Not great 'figures'.

Careful now, we dont want upset any obese folks with facts.

Captain_Crash · 15-10-2020 04:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've literally posted it within the last two pages. The most glaring one is that he claims there is 80% immunity already amongst the population.

Sorry for being late in following this up. Ironically, this 80% immune conversation is back just as I read back over the thread. So anyway, in Ivor's case. I can see why we would say and believe this. He bases it on the fact that 80% of positive cases are asymptomatic, or as some medical professionals would call, immune.

I'm not going to get into a debate about weather being asymptomatic means someone is immune because I just don't know enough. But you'll find doctors who believe it does, and equally doctors who believe otherwise.

Immune is defined as "the ability of an organism to resist a particular infection or toxin by the action of specific antibodies or sensitized white blood cells" and the medical definition of immunity is "a condition of being able to resist a particular disease especially through preventing development of a pathogenic microorganism or by counteracting the effects of its product" thanks Google. So why is it that 80% of people are not showing any symptoms? is it immunity?

So there is a point in arguing that someone who is asymptomatic is resisting infection and hence by definition immune. But where did this immunity come from? I don't (and I don't think anyone does) believe 80% of the population have had the virus, so is it t-cells from other viruses they've had in the past fighting it off in asymptomatic people??

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immunity

Edit: Spelling

drunkmonkey · 15-10-2020 04:38PM

Will someone explain to me why there back raving in Whuhan if there is no underlying immunity or new vaccine. What do they know we don't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpfQyM2LT5Q

CIARAN_BOYLE · 15-10-2020 04:44PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there back raving in Whuhan if there is no underlying immunity or new vaccine. What do they know we don't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpfQyM2LT5Q

Don't they have border control there?

CalamariFritti · 15-10-2020 04:46PM

charlie14 wrote: »

That has been the assumption taken by some countries with much higher infection than Ireland on acquiring herd immunity. Unfortunately it has been proven wrong time after time.

But for the crack, lets say you are correct and 400,000 have been infected here. Cummins figure claims I believe that we have herd immunity due to 80% having acquired immunity.
The maths aren`t that difficult.

80% of 5 million is 4 million.
400,000 subtracted from 4 million leaves you short by 3.6 million.

The man may know very little in the field he is now dabbling in as a self promotion vehicle to gain attention for his latest venture in selling his nutritional bs, but as a qualified chemical engineer I would, at the very least, have expected him to be capable of very basic mathematics.

Totally with you. I have no love for Cummins. He makes some very valid points but he does not talk like someone who assesses facts and makes up his mind. He has made up his mind and tries to bend facts to suit. Some dont need bending mind, but he makes no distinction between those and the ones that do. For that I couldn't take him seriously.

I also would not believe that we have reached herd immunity or anything close. 400,000 sounds possible. Could be more could be less. Nobody knows. But not enough for herd immunity. Never said it was.

But for the life of me I cant understand what is wrong with the idea of herd immunity? We're trying to achieve that through vaccine anyway. There is no reason to believe the vaccine immunity path is any less risky or achieves longer immunity or as a matter of fact any immunity any time soon.

15-10-2020 04:54PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Don't they have border control there?

They have suspended the VISAs of anyone who has left the country anyway or they had as I know of someone working over there for a european company and they came home when it kicked off but cant go back yet.

Wanderer78 · 15-10-2020 04:55PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there back raving in Whuhan if there is no underlying immunity or new vaccine. What do they know we don't?

its clearly obvious the whole covid thing was planned by them, just for the laugh, maybe!

CIARAN_BOYLE · 15-10-2020 04:58PM

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Totally with you. I have no love for Cummins. He makes some very valid points but he does not talk like someone who assesses facts and makes up his mind. He has made up his mind and tries to bend facts to suit. Some dont need bending mind, but he makes no distinction between those and the ones that do. For that I couldn't take him seriously.

I also would not believe that we have reached herd immunity or anything close. 400,000 sounds possible. Could be more could be less. Nobody knows. But not enough for herd immunity. Never said it was.

But for the life of me I cant understand what is wrong with the idea of herd immunity? We're trying to achieve that through vaccine anyway. There is no reason to believe the vaccine immunity path is any less risky or achieves longer immunity or as a matter of fact any immunity any time soon.

If we need 3.6 million cases the hospitals won't be able to handle people needing serious care. Icu might as well not exist. Even if we spread it out over a couple of years. Herd immunity in Ireland is like saying give me 200k deaths please.

LessOutragePlz · 15-10-2020 04:58PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Will someone explain to me why there back raving in Whuhan if there is no underlying immunity or new vaccine. What do they know we don't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpfQyM2LT5Q

The description gives you the answer that you're looking for.

"However their health QR and body temperature were checked at the entrance"

They're probably keeping a very good track on it and catching any infections early to stop to spread.

They could also be lying about the situation which is also highly possible or they could also have a vaccine that they've told no one about.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings