Budget 2021

vintagevrs · 10-10-2020 3:34pm #1

Anyone know if there is on any impact to CC tax rates for pre co2 tax bands?

Thanks

Atlantic Dawn · 10-10-2020 3:53pm

Myself I think they will do a 5-10% across the board increase with perhaps full electric vehicles left alone.

Hellrazer · 10-10-2020 4:34pm

Its the greens who are in charge of the Transport ministry AGAIN.

Expect them to **** it up like they last time telling us all to buy diesels.

There will be big taxes put on these diesels now and probably petrol as well.

Electric will probably receive incentives despite us not having the infrastructure for an all electric car park.

They don't even have a real mandate just a nod and wink agreement with FG and FF just to keep the shinners out.

vintagevrs · 10-10-2020 5:06pm

All the media reports as per your post are on diesel and co2. I'm interested in any changes to the old cc rates, esp the top cc bracket if anyone knows? Cheers

Leonard Hofstadter · 10-10-2020 8:33pm

While I completely agree that the Greens love making the lives of motorists miserable, taxation rates are actually decided by the Minister for Finance (which is controlled by Fine Gael).

bazz26 · 13-10-2020 1:47pm

Just announced:

Minister Donohoe says VRT reliefs for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles and hybrids will be allowed to expire and relief for Battery Electric Vehicles to be tapered.

The Nitrogen Oxide surcharge bands are being adjusted so that higher NOx emitting vehicles will pay more.

On Motor Tax, rates will remain unchanged for all cars in the engine sized regime and all but the most pollutant cars in the post-2008 regime.

A third Motor Tax table for cars registered from 1 January 2021 is being opened to take account of the introduction of the WLTP emissions test.

So there will be a 3 tier motor tax system now instead of 2!

Atlantic Dawn · 13-10-2020 1:51pm

Hopefully they class 'most polluting cars' as something sensible like 170 g/km of CO2 or over.

bazz26 · 13-10-2020 1:54pm

How many "most polluting cars" are here that are on post 2008 rates?

awec · 13-10-2020 1:56pm

https://twitter.com/RTEbusiness/status/1315996875087065093

I guess this will see the price of fuel rise at the pumps. Anyone able to work out by how much?

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 1:57pm

I wish they'd just say "income for the exchequer" in place of "to combat climate change"

saabsaab · 13-10-2020 1:58pm

They fluffed it. Should have brought in one system to cover all. based on the amount of fossil fuel you burn.

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:03pm

awec wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RTEbusiness/status/1315996875087065093

I guess this will see the price of fuel rise at the pumps. Anyone able to work out by how much?

Think it adds 7 cents a litre.

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 2:04pm

that's not bad sure a trump tweet could swing the price by that much

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:05pm

Fuel is at a low price at the moment. It’ll surely go back to near what it was once demand picks up globally.
Not so long ago it was €1.50 a litre.

bazz26 · 13-10-2020 2:10pm

The reason fuel prices are low is because of the global market price and low demand during Covid, not because taxes on it are low. If the logic used to increase taxes when the market price is low then surely the same logic should be used to reduce it when the market price is high but anyone with half a brain in their head knows that won't happen.

Atlantic Dawn · 13-10-2020 2:11pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Fuel is at a low price at the moment. It’ll surely go back to near what it was once demand picks up globally.
Not so long ago it was €1.50 a litre.

Yes petrol was a few cent off €1.50 in January this year.

13-10-2020 2:14pm

I agree that they should work out the average that car tax is per car (ie; the average tax paid might be, i dunno, €382.51, for example). Round it off (upwards, obviously) and just charge every car €400. Doesn't matter when it was made, what kind of engine, and get rid of the whole complicated system that comes with it. If you drive a 7ltr american import, then you'll pay more at the pump anyway, than Mary in her .9ltr micra. All evens out.

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:16pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Fuel is at a low price at the moment. It’ll surely go back to near what it was once demand picks up globally.
Not so long ago it was €1.50 a litre.

bazz26 wrote: »

The reason fuel prices are low is because of the global market price and low demand during Covid, not because taxes on it are low. If the logic used to increase taxes when the market price is low then surely the same logic should be used to reduce it when the market price is high but anyone with half a brain in their head knows that won't happen.

My point is that we won’t notice 7c now but it’ll hurt more when it goes back up

Birka · 13-10-2020 2:16pm

Last year, petrol went up 1.7 cent a litre and diesel went up 2 cent a litre after a €6 increase in carbon tax. This €7.50 increase in carbon tax won't result in increases much more than last year's

Larbre34 · 13-10-2020 2:25pm

Birka wrote: »

Last year, petrol went up 1.7 cent a litre and diesel went up 2 cent a litre after a €6 increase in carbon tax. This €7.50 increase in carbon tax won't result in increases much more than last year's

I went looking for this myself. Spot on.

With differences of as much as 10 to 12c a litre on both fuels between different fuel stations that I have seen in Dublin, this won't make that much of a difference to anyone.

I also applaud the Ministers' decisions to end HEV and BEV incentives and to introduce a WLTP emissions based Motor Tax rate for 2021+ cars. This will give absolute clarity to real world costs to change and operate for consumers seeking to make an educated decision for their motoring needs.

It also does not penalise the likes of me who invested in a diesel vehicle when it was highly encouraged by previous Govt policies and who will happily change over to a hybrid option when I change cars next.

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:28pm

Glad they levelled the playing field with hybrids.

vintagevrs · 13-10-2020 2:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I agree that they should work out the average that car tax is per car (ie; the average tax paid might be, i dunno, €382.51, for example). Round it off (upwards, obviously) and just charge every car €400. Doesn't matter when it was made, what kind of engine, and get rid of the whole complicated system that comes with it. If you drive a 7ltr american import, then you'll pay more at the pump anyway, than Mary in her .9ltr micra. All evens out.

€382.51

That part made me laugh. Not that it's wrong or anything, just so specific!

hawkwing · 13-10-2020 2:31pm

This will add €1.28 to the cost of a 60-litre tank of petrol or €1.47 to the same amount of diesel

Capra · 13-10-2020 2:32pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Hopefully they class 'most polluting cars' as something sensible like 170 g/km of CO2 or over.

That is basically every single desirable car on sale. Say goodbye to things as humble as a Fiesta ST or a Golf GTI. Don't every dream of doing even remotely well for yourself and buying an AMG or M car to reward yourself for your toil.

Just to put this into perspective, according to statistics on this only 0.07% of new cars fall into the highest co2 tax bracket. It's basically ensuring only the very wealthy can have a nice car. It really is totally against the spirit of striving to achieve something for yourself. There is no environmental benefit to this. Its just miserable begredugery.

I was hoping to buy a Yaris GR4 next January. This has almost certainly made them completely unattainable. It was already going to be a 50k+ car on the old system.

bazz26 · 13-10-2020 2:34pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

My point is that we won’t notice 7c now but it’ll hurt more when it goes back up

Oh I know, it wasn't aimed at you.

I was more making my point to those who were in favor of increasing it because it's currently low. Are they equally in favor of reducing it when the market price goes up again based on the logic they are using? We all know the tax won't be reduced on it when the market price is high.

bazz26 · 13-10-2020 2:37pm

I'd say the majority of those wealthy elite probably don't even register their high end cars here and who would blame them.

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 2:39pm

and those who do, they are probably pool cars. it's very silly

carsfan2 · 13-10-2020 2:42pm

Have they published the new vrt or car tax rates yet?
Will be interesting to hear SIMI reaction.

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:47pm

carsfan2 wrote: »

Will be interesting to hear SIMI reaction.

Let me ruin it for you. SIMI will be very disappointed

Conor Faughnan, spokesperson on everything will go into a bit spiel.

Then we will forget about it til next year.

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 2:49pm

pearse doherty is after saying there's an increase in motor tax on older cars.

Is someone going to tell him they haven't touched those rates?

vintagevrs · 13-10-2020 2:51pm

frozenfrozen wrote: »

pearse doherty is after saying there's an increase in motor tax on older cars.

Is someone going to tell him they haven't touched those rates?

Are the CC rates untouched? Trying to find out what the new rates are here but not sure if they are released yet.

KCross · 13-10-2020 2:52pm

This is an interesting one....

To create a level playing field between new cars and used imports, which have been subject to different emissions tests, I am ensuring that used imports subject to the weaker emissions test will have their CO2 values uplifted to a level equivalent with the WLTP test to which all new cars are subject.

How will they "uplift" the values without actually testing them. I presume it will be a sledgehammer process of just loading all used imports with a high value unless you can provide evidence of your own?

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:53pm

Jaysus that is gonna be so confusing

colm_mcm · 13-10-2020 2:53pm

vintagevrs wrote: »

Are the CC rates untouched? Trying to find out what the new rates are here but not sure if they are released yet.

Apparently they are to stay the same

Dravokivich · 13-10-2020 2:55pm

frozenfrozen wrote: »

pearse doherty is after saying there's an increase in motor tax on older cars.

Is someone going to tell him they haven't touched those rates?

He was talking about hospital breads too. I didn't know that was an issue.

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 2:56pm

vintagevrs wrote: »

Are the CC rates untouched? Trying to find out what the new rates are here but not sure if they are released yet.

That's what pascal donohue said earlier, just that from jan 1st they will use wltp or whatever rates and the higher Co2 cars will be increased. Haven't heard or seen any concrete numbers

Joe 90 · 13-10-2020 2:59pm

Capra wrote: »

That is basically every single desirable car on sale. Say goodbye to things as humble as a Fiesta ST or a Golf GTI. Don't every dream of doing even remotely well for yourself and buying an AMG or M car to reward yourself for your toil.

Just to put this into perspective, according to statistics on this only 0.07% of new cars fall into the highest co2 tax bracket. It's basically ensuring only the very wealthy can have a nice car. It really is totally against the spirit of striving to achieve something for yourself. There is no environmental benefit to this. Its just miserable begredugery.

I was hoping to buy a Yaris GR4 next January. This has almost certainly made them completely unattainable. It was already going to be a 50k+ car on the old system.

It's always been the way in Ireland, when I was young anything over 2 litres was absolute robbery. Now it's anything vaguely desirable.

ba_barabus · 13-10-2020 3:01pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Glad they levelled the playing field with hybrids.

Does that mean they taxing them the same now as a regular petrol car?

So it's either some form of or BEV in the VRT bands?

Hogzy · 13-10-2020 3:01pm

New rates are on page 19 of this document

Irishder · 13-10-2020 3:02pm

Clear as mud. I am thinking about getting a 2017 Megane Estate from either the north or the UK. Based on todays budget would i be better off buying this year or next year?

Thanks

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 13-10-2020 3:05pm

Wtf does “most polluting cars post 2008” mean? I just want to know is my tax going up, Jesus wept.

RGARDINR · 13-10-2020 3:06pm

So I have a 192 seat arona automatic petrol. Pay 225 tax a year what way would it be now?

bazz26 · 13-10-2020 3:07pm

To me it's the cars that are on the top emissions based tax rates.

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 3:07pm

Hogzy wrote: »

New rates are on page 19 of this document

interesting so my car at 144 or so co2 would actually be cheaper on the new grouping @ 19.5% vrt instead of the current 23%

(except I know with the new testing my car would score a higher Co2 figure and they are increasing nox..)

but the change doesn't look too drastic at all

Hogzy · 13-10-2020 3:08pm

Irishder wrote: »

Clear as mud. I am thinking about getting a 2017 Megane Estate from either the north or the UK. Based on todays budget would i be better off buying this year or next year?

Thanks

Whats the C02 of the car currently? My understanding is that any imports that are pre Sept 2018 use the old C02 NEDC test. So pre Sept 2018 cars need to have their C02 emisions multiplied by C02 x 0.9227 + 34.554 for petrol cars and C02 x 1.1405 + 12.858
for diesel cars and that will be their WLTP emissions under the new system. And your VRT will be calculated off that.

So if a NEDC tested petrol car has a CO2 value of 110 g/km on the vehicle registration documentation which would attract a rate of 16%. Revenue uplifts this CO2 value to a WLTP equivalent value as follows: y = 110(0.9227) + 34.554 y = 136

This car is then subject to an 18% VRT rate.

Its ridiculously complicated!

ELM327 · 13-10-2020 3:09pm

vintagevrs wrote: »

Are the CC rates untouched? Trying to find out what the new rates are here but not sure if they are released yet.

Yes untouched
http://budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2021/Documents/Budget/BUDGET%2021_Tax%20Policy%20Changes.pdf

Cheensbo · 13-10-2020 3:09pm

P19 of doc as linked by Hogzy

Idbatterim · 13-10-2020 3:12pm

Top rate of motor tax on emissions now e2400! Lol! Lol!

Hogzy · 13-10-2020 3:12pm

If you are importing a car with a reg between Sept 2019 and now with 119g/km CO2 then youre actually saving 3% in VRT. Thats a huge amount. Is that correct?

frozenfrozen · 13-10-2020 3:13pm

top rate only gone up by 50 quid, I thought they'd be doubling it by the way they were talking about it

KCross · 13-10-2020 3:13pm

KCross wrote: »

This is an interesting one....
To create a level playing field between new cars and used imports, which have been subject to different emissions tests, I am ensuring that used imports subject to the weaker emissions test will have their CO2 values uplifted to a level equivalent with the WLTP test to which all new cars are subject.

How will they "uplift" the values without actually testing them. I presume it will be a sledgehammer process of just loading all used imports with a high value unless you can provide evidence of your own?

And another tough one here...

The charging structure for the NOx surcharge is also adjusted so that 1-40 mg are charged at €5 per mg, and 41-80 mg are charged at €15 per mg

Thats an effective increase from last year, isnt it?

Having said that, might not make any difference with Brexit... importing from the UK might become just a memory.

Budget 2021

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