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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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Comments

  • #4382
    Suckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    It was only posted a few days ago - here

    Second most expensive alcohol in the EU, we're slightly behind Finland which is 91% above the EU average.
    Didn't Finland have some sort of ban on alcohol (dry law?), which led to people coming up with creative ways to hide it?

    Or something like that..?
    I'm sure somebody here will have more information on it (which wouldn't be hard) , but I have a distant memory of watching a programme years ago that spoke about that, which led to all sorts of alcohol filled desserts and liquer filled sweets etc..
    And after their dry law, some government owned company (was set up for that reason) makes and distributes all of the alcohol in the country??
    I was under the impression that they are at the extreme end of the scale when it comes to alcohol.


    Off to search I go.


  • #4383
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Suckit wrote: »
    Didn't Finland have some sort of ban on alcohol (dry law?), which led to people coming up with creative ways to hide it?

    Or something like that..?
    I'm sure somebody here will have more information on it (which wouldn't be hard) , but I have a distant memory of watching a programme years ago that spoke about that, which led to all sorts of alcohol filled desserts and liquer filled sweets etc..
    And after their dry law, some government owned company (was set up for that reason) makes and distributes all of the alcohol in the country??
    I was under the impression that they are at the extreme end of the scale when it comes to alcohol.


    Off to search I go.


    Many years ago my mother went on the ferry from Helsinki to Tallinn, possibly the original booze cruise. Finnish nationals would go to Tallinn and stock up on booze and bring home. She said she never saw so many drunk old ladies in her life.

    She talked about stepping over passed out old ladies on the stairs on the ferry.


  • #4384
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    British Prime Minister Boris Johnson's controversial Brexit bill could delay the introduction of minimum alcohol pricing across Ireland.

    That's according to Alcohol Action Ireland, as the Internal Market Bill makes its way through the House of Commons.

    The Oireachtas passed minimum pricing legislation in 2018, but they want to introduce it at the same time as the North.

    But Eunan McKinney, from Alcohol Action Ireland, says it should no longer be delayed because of the latest Brexit developments. He said Mr Johnson's bill will cause difficulties for Northern Ireland Minister for Health Robin Swann as he looks to introduce minimum alcohol pricing.

    Mr McKinney said: "The Internal Market Bill seeks to establish an internal market within the United Kingdom. The Scottish administration in particular have identified this as a real problem, that is one of the problems Nicola Sturgeon [Scottish First Minister] has most significantly with the Internal Market Bill."

    He added: "It is stripping away devolved powers, if you strip away the devolved powers, that certainly will curtail Robin Swann's ability to bring about minimum unit pricing in Northern Ireland."

    Finally something good to say about Boris.


  • #4385
    wonga77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,629 ✭✭✭wonga77


    I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Many years ago my mother went on the ferry from Helsinki to Tallinn, possibly the original booze cruise. Finnish nationals would go to Tallinn and stock up on booze and bring home. She said she never saw so many drunk old ladies in her life.

    She talked about stepping over passed out old ladies on the stairs on the ferry.

    Ive done that trip a few times, you're quite correct about them flocking to Talinn for the cheap booze. Not as common now as I think the prices arent as cheap as they were. I never saw anyone passed out though


  • #4386
    Suckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    I searched a little, and found out that they definitely do seem at the extreme end of things, even though they are slightly relaxing some laws. They also seem to have invented the alcohol sweets :)
    This caught my attention, but no doubt won't be cheap.
    Anyway, OT, but it was because I was surprised that we are closer to Finland prices (which are very high due to their strict laws) than anywhere else, which imho is probably enough.
    We don't need Eunan McKinney and his ilk adding pressure to things on our behalf.


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  • #4387
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,779 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There's an awful whiff of "none purer than a reformed hoor" off those organisations. Terrified that someone, somewhere might be enjoying themselves.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #4388
    Eleven Benevolent Elephants
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭Eleven Benevolent Elephants


    I'm going to enjoy my homebrew tonight. It's probably not as nice as other people here would make it but it gets the job done.


  • #4389
    elperello
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,261 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    E McKinney back in the news calling for immediate implementation of MUP without waiting for NI to move.


    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/alcohol-minimum-unit-pricing-5213835-Sep2020/


  • #4390
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    elperello wrote: »
    E McKinney back in the news calling for immediate implementation of MUP without waiting for NI to move.


    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/alcohol-minimum-unit-pricing-5213835-Sep2020/

    What a f*cking w*nker


  • #4391
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,357 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    elperello wrote: »
    E McKinney back in the news calling for immediate implementation of MUP without waiting for NI to move.
    That's one of those times when it's better to keep your mouth shut in case people assume you're an idiot rather than proving it.

    Thanks to road improvements NI is a lot easier to get to so inconvenience isn't as big a factor as it was.

    Revenue can predict how much Excise and VAT will be lost to the UK if that was done. Money that then wouldn't be available for the HSE.


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  • #4392
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,779 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    elperello wrote: »
    E McKinney back in the news calling for immediate implementation of MUP without waiting for NI to move.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/alcohol-minimum-unit-pricing-5213835-Sep2020/

    Lying through his teeth. €11 bottles of Irish Whiskey? Not in Ireland tha'ts for sure.

    Also ignoring that overall alcohol consumption has gone down since pubs were closed, off sales increased but overall consumption is still less.

    Alcohol consumption per capita peaked in 2000 and has been falling ever since.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #4393
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,413 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Lying through his teeth. €11 bottles of Irish Whiskey? Not in Ireland tha'ts for sure.
    Also ignoring that overall alcohol consumption has gone down since pubs were closed, off sales increased but overall consumption is still less.
    Alcohol consumption per capita peaked in 2000 and has been falling ever since.

    In their survey, they listed Drombeg Doonbeg which is €11 in Dunnes as a 40% Irish whiskey. It's a whiskey liqueur at about 20% - 25%.
    You would think if they're going to lead with that claim they would double check their figures... but nope.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #4394
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Lying through his teeth. €11 bottles of Irish Whiskey? Not in Ireland tha'ts for sure.

    Also ignoring that overall alcohol consumption has gone down since pubs were closed, off sales increased but overall consumption is still less.

    Alcohol consumption per capita peaked in 2000 and has been falling ever since.


    Thats a statistic none of the nimbys like to acknowledge


  • #4395
    elperello
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,261 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Vintners Federation of Ireland (your friendly local) red in tooth and claw.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/vintners-call-for-minimum-pricing-off-licence-5228993-Oct2020/

    Don't forget.


  • #4396
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,134 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    elperello wrote: »
    Vintners Federation of Ireland (your friendly local) red in tooth and claw.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/vintners-call-for-minimum-pricing-off-licence-5228993-Oct2020/

    Don't forget.

    gee, i wonder what they might mean by this
    Cribben claimed that allowing people to consume alcohol in a controlled environment makes more sense than to for it to go unsupervised by those buying in bulk.


  • #4397
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    The Vinters are calling for regulation of alcohol sales so it is consumed only in supervised environments, while the drugs crowd are calling for the deregulation of hard drugs so they can be consumed in a regulated environment. :confused:


  • #4398
    Parabellum9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭Parabellum9


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    The Vinters are calling for regulation of alcohol sales so it is consumed only in supervised environments, while the drugs crowd are calling for the deregulation of hard drugs so they can be consumed in a regulated environment. :confused:

    The VFI can go **** themselves now, any sympathy I had for them is gone after today’s statement. Sour bitter pricks trying to level things by bull**** means, there is a reason they can’t open in full at the moment. People buying slabs etc is none of their ****ing business and they would do well to get back in their box quickly, people are getting on just fine without pubs and stoking the fires is not a good idea at this point.


  • #4399
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Parabellum9 wrote: »
    The VFI can go **** themselves now, any sympathy I had for them is gone after today’s statement. Sour bitter pricks trying to level things by bull**** means, there is a reason they can’t open in full at the moment. People buying slabs etc is none of their ****ing business and they would do well to get back in their box quickly, people are getting on just fine without pubs and stoking the fires is not a good idea at this point.

    I posted this elsewhere but, about six weeks ago i was in blackrock and fancied a pint, one place had a sign up in the window. Cocktail sausages and chips 9 euro, so it fell within the guidelines, i went in and stood at the bar and got ignored by the barman for about five minutes until i grabbed his attention and ordered and he said "we're closing'. I said, it's only 9pm. He goes "yeah but the kitchen closes at 9".

    This was after weeks of closure. I thought to myself, would you not maybe get the chef to give you a crash course in how to work the microwave and the deep fat fryer? That way you could stay open for a couple more hours.

    I really think some publicans don't have a clue and have zero imagination. Anything beyond pulling pints befuddles them so they get onto the VFI to complain.

    My uncle ran a small rural pub years ago. The price of the pint went up by 5 cent but he didn't raise his prices. I asked him why not, he said, yeah then at the end of the night I'll be counting out all these 1,2 and 5 cent coins. No my time is more precious.

    If they didn't have one already I'd say there are alot of man caves around the country getting retro fitted with beer taps.


  • #4400
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,131 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    After seeing the Vintners latest statement I never want to darken their doors again. I can't believe these people even have the voice they do, like they're an authority on our lives, only in Ireland...


  • #4401
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,214 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And that is exactly the response we should be doing. I would have some sympathy for their position if they had ever shown any inkling to care about patrolling their patrons in the past. Too often they allow excessive drinking for profits. Continuing to serve customers clearly had enough or suffering from drinking problems.

    So they are far the safe places them think themselves to be *

    So people should boycott them. This MUP is clearly in their interests, and is being pushed by them and we should always push back against one sector trying to control us and other competitors like this.

    * of course there are examples of individual publications that are focused on safe, but the vintners as a grouping they are not


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  • #4402
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,394 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A pub owner sent my aunt a get well soon card when she was dying of liver failure ably assisted by said pub... if you never went in to a pub and saw an old sot in a corner who's clearly had many beyond the one too many; never saw fights outside pubs etc you might be convinced that its somehow a safe regulated environment. But it isn't

    The LVA/VFI (treat them interchangeably, they even merged for a time) have been trying to hamper off-sales since the 50s; even though they themselves joined in with the Next Door and Cheers chains.


  • #4403
    Suckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    "Suuport, not sympathy" - Increase the price and reduce the VAT :rolleyes:

    https://twitter.com/VFIpubs/status/1314898738083762176


  • #4404
    irishproduce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭irishproduce


    Parabellum9 wrote: »
    The VFI can go **** themselves now, any sympathy I had for them is gone after today’s statement. Sour bitter pricks trying to level things by bull**** means, there is a reason they can’t open in full at the moment. People buying slabs etc is none of their ****ing business and they would do well to get back in their box quickly, people are getting on just fine without pubs and stoking the fires is not a good idea at this point.

    Agreed.
    Their statement comes across as if they were the rightful distributors of alcohol and that people buying drinks to take home somehow undermines their remit.

    I've news for them. Buying and selling of alcohol is an area they participate in, they don't control or own the process.
    They should be told back off.


  • #4405
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,779 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's obvious what VFI/LVA are trying to do, but the politicians who pander to them are worse.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #4406
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,782 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Some research evidence on the Scottish MUP:

    https://voxeu.org/article/alcohol-price-floors-and-their-effect-heavy-drinking

    Prices

    Overall, up 5% on average, per unit of alcohol

    "This average price increase masks a great deal of variation in the price changes experienced by different products. Figure 2a shows that prior to the reform close to 50% of transactions in Scotland in the year before the reform were below the floor. Figure 2b shows the distribution of prices before and after the introduction of the reform, and the average price change conditional on the product’s price in the year prior to the reform. Some very cheap products experienced price increases in excess of 100%, while products that were previously priced above the floor exhibit very little change in price."

    Quantities down 11%, "with larger falls for more heavily drinking households."


    So far, this seems to support MUP.

    "This makes it relatively well targeted at the alcohol purchases of heavy drinkers, because they disproportionally buy relatively cheap alcohol products."


  • #4407
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,394 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Consumption figures alone don't support anything.

    Harm outcomes and transfers to drug use need to be accounted for too

    As do any increase in bulk off sales in Carlisle / Berwick!


  • #4408
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    "This makes it relatively well targeted at the alcohol purchases of heavy drinkers, because they disproportionally buy relatively cheap alcohol products."

    That is a huge leap of logic.

    Is there any source for this theory or just presumption?


  • #4409
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,782 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    However, they continue:

    How does a price floor compare to an ethanol tax?

    "We use the model to compare the welfare impact of the price floor with that of an ethanol tax that achieves the same aggregate reduction in alcohol as the price floor. When the externality associated with each unit of alcohol consumed is constant, the ethanol tax out-performs the price floor, increasing welfare by more than the price floor. However, when the alcohol consumption of heavy drinkers creates even moderately larger externalities than that of lighter drinkers, the price floor leads to larger welfare gains than the ethanol tax. This is because the price floor is much better targeted at heavy drinkers, and thus leads to a larger reduction in external costs, which more than offsets the fact it leads to losses in tax revenue."

    See my emphasis, the MUP is better so far, as it better targets the heavy drinkers, even though it doesn't bring in tax for State.

    BUT...........

    "However, reforms to the tax system that tax stronger drinks more heavily can achieve similar welfare gains to the price floor. This is because they increase the price of stronger alcohol products by more, which are also consumed disproportionately by heavy drinkers. In Griffith et al. (2020b), we show that a simple two-rate tax system that taxes drinks in proportion to their ethanol content, with a higher rate on strong spirits, is almost as well targeted at heavy drinkers as a price floor, but leads to an increase in tax revenue. Until now, EU regulations have constrained the UK's ability to reform alcohol taxes in this way, but this type of reform may now be possible."


    So a 2-rate or 2-tier excise can achieve the same welfare gains as MUP, and collect taxes for the State.


  • #4410
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,782 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/15183

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/15176

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/15184


    Minimum unit pricing works better if implemented alongside reformed alcohol taxes
    Rachel Griffith, Martin O'Connell and Kate Smith
    Press release


    The UK government has put out a call for evidence, seeking views on how well the alcohol duty system currently works and how it could be reformed. In new IFS research – funded by the European Research Council and the Economic and Social Research Council and published today - we show that minimum unit prices for alcohol are reasonably well targeted at heavy drinkers, but come at the cost of hindering competition and reducing tax revenues. A minimum unit price, combined with a more coherent set of taxes on alcohol, would be just as well targeted at heavy drinkers and would limit the fall in revenue for the exchequer.


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  • #4411
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Geuze wrote: »
    However, they continue:

    How does a price floor compare to an ethanol tax?

    "We use the model to compare the welfare impact of the price floor with that of an ethanol tax that achieves the same aggregate reduction in alcohol as the price floor. When the externality associated with each unit of alcohol consumed is constant, the ethanol tax out-performs the price floor, increasing welfare by more than the price floor. However, when the alcohol consumption of heavy drinkers creates even moderately larger externalities than that of lighter drinkers, the price floor leads to larger welfare gains than the ethanol tax. This is because the price floor is much better targeted at heavy drinkers, and thus leads to a larger reduction in external costs, which more than offsets the fact it leads to losses in tax revenue."

    See my emphasis, the MUP is better so far, as it better targets the heavy drinkers, even though it doesn't bring in tax for State.

    BUT...........

    "However, reforms to the tax system that tax stronger drinks more heavily can achieve similar welfare gains to the price floor. This is because they increase the price of stronger alcohol products by more, which are also consumed disproportionately by heavy drinkers. In Griffith et al. (2020b), we show that a simple two-rate tax system that taxes drinks in proportion to their ethanol content, with a higher rate on strong spirits, is almost as well targeted at heavy drinkers as a price floor, but leads to an increase in tax revenue. Until now, EU regulations have constrained the UK's ability to reform alcohol taxes in this way, but this type of reform may now be possible."


    So a 2-rate ot 2-tier excise can achieve the same welfare gains as MUP, and collect taxes for the State.

    I got a headache reading that.

    Sounds anti-EU to me. Surprise, surprise.


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