Level 3 National restrictions - Your Q & A's megathread

Beasty · 06-10-2020 8:11am #1

The rest of us join Dublin and Donegal on Level 3 at midnight tonight

This thread is where you can ask questions about what it means, and some of the practical issues surrounding the increase in restrictions being brought in

sydthebeat · 06-10-2020 8:13am

When will those idiots who aren't wearing masks, gathering in large groups and generally being reckless dickheads ever cop on???

EDit · 06-10-2020 8:15am

Good idea...my question is whether it is a strict “do not travel outside of your county” or whether there is a distance limit alternative. i live in Athlone (on the Westmeath side) but my local PO is on the Roscommon side (~5 mins in the car). Strictly speaking, am i breaking the Level 3 rules by going to that PO?

sydthebeat · 06-10-2020 8:17am

EDit wrote: »

Good idea...my question is whether it is a strict “do not travel outside of your county” or whether there is a distance limit alternative. i live in Athlone (on the Westmeath side) but my local PO is on the Roscommon side (~5 mins in the car). Strictly speaking, am i breaking the Level 3 rules by going to that PO?

Essential travel is still allowed

Jim_Hodge · 06-10-2020 8:20am

EDit wrote: »

Good idea...my question is whether it is a strict “do not travel outside of your county” or whether there is a distance limit alternative. i live in Athlone (on the Westmeath side) but my local PO is on the Roscommon side (~5 mins in the car). Strictly speaking, am i breaking the Level 3 rules by going to that PO?

Of course you can. Shopping or the PO are permitted as essential travel.

Beasty · 06-10-2020 10:06am

sydthebeat wrote: »

When will those idiots who aren't wearing masks, gathering in large groups and generally being reckless dickheads ever cop on???

Please stick to the topic. There's a dedicated mask thread and the main thread is another place to discuss them. Beyond how requirements may or may not change under Level 3 it's not a topic for this thread

km79 · 06-10-2020 10:36am

We have a hotel break booked in our own county in a few weeks time
Assuming things don’t escalate further we may go
However I am still confused by the wording of hotels “services limited to residents”
Does that mean that the bar and restaurant attached to hotel can serve people who are boiled in to stay only ?
We would definitely go if that was the case !
We went over the summer to another hotel in the town when all other pubs were closed and the hotel bar was chaos and a very unpleasant experience !

froog · 06-10-2020 10:47am

km79 wrote: »

We have a hotel break booked in our own county in a few weeks time
Assuming things don’t escalate further we may go
However I am still confused by the wording of hotels “services limited to residents”
Does that mean that the bar and restaurant attached to hotel can serve people who are boiled in to stay only ?
We would definitely go if that was the case !
We went over the summer to another hotel in the town when all other pubs were closed and the hotel bar was chaos and a very unpleasant experience !

Yes, bar/food for residents only.

airmax87 · 06-10-2020 12:37pm

Why exactly arent donegal/dublin at a higher level ?

fly_agaric · 06-10-2020 1:48pm

airmax87 wrote: »

Why exactly arent donegal/dublin at a higher level ?

I believe there's a few other counties (or regions/towns within them) with similar problems now (when measured by new cases /100k people - see https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/).

That is probably why. They are not quite so "special" any more.
An attempt at being consistent would require more counties to be moved to "level 4" along side those 2 and it looks like govt. are going with a strategy of keeping as much as possible open around the country for as long as they can.

kksaints · 06-10-2020 1:51pm

Do driving lessons count as essential journey's and will driving tests take place. I have a test in a few weeks time in a different county to the one that I'm currently resident.

MOH · 06-10-2020 2:38pm

Despite the fact that everyone keeps calling it level 3, we're not at Level 3.

The Level 3 plan was published on September 15th and had remained largely unchanged until Monday, with the exception of additions indicating the extra restrictions applying to Dublin and Donegal.

There have been a couple of significant changes made to it since Sunday and the sections for restaurants and pubs now contain the restrictions which were originally only present at level 4.

The other main change was the additional of a line to the restriction on weddings to state that guests may not attend a wedding in a different county.

Some other sections around sport have been rewritten since the original but I think the meaning is largely unchanged.

I appreciate that it's an evolving situation. But the whole point of having a clearly defined five stage plan is that you can say "we're going to level 3" and everyone knows what that means. If you're going to a particular level but with changes, then that should be highlighted as such, as was done for Dublin and Donegal.

But by silently rewriting the definition of level 3 the very first time it's been used nationwide, they've just totally undermined it It's actually worse than not having a five stage plan at all, since people are being told we're at level 3 but we have restrictions contradicting what level 3 previously stated. It may as well go in the bin now.

So there is no 5 stage plan, or level 3, we just have whatever restrictions are put in place on an ad-hoc basis.

ellejay · 06-10-2020 3:22pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

I believe there's a few other counties (or regions/towns within them) with similar problems now (when measured by new cases /100k people - see https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/).

That is probably why. They are not quite so "special" any more.
An attempt at being consistent would require more counties to be moved to "level 4" along side those 2 and it looks like govt. are going with a strategy of keeping as much as possible open around the country for as long as they can.

that link is vey interesting, thank you

BraveDonut · 06-10-2020 4:05pm

To clarify - is outdoor dining in pubs limited to 15 people for level 3 or is that level 4?

(Can't imagine anywhere bothering to open at that rate)

Charles Babbage · 06-10-2020 4:08pm

EDit wrote: »

Good idea...my question is whether it is a strict “do not travel outside of your county” or whether there is a distance limit alternative. i live in Athlone (on the Westmeath side) but my local PO is on the Roscommon side (~5 mins in the car). Strictly speaking, am i breaking the Level 3 rules by going to that PO?

In June they had a 15km idea for people on county boundaries, they should really clarify this.

MOH · 06-10-2020 4:20pm

BraveDonut wrote: »

To clarify - is outdoor dining in pubs limited to 15 people for level 3 or is that level 4?

(Can't imagine anywhere bothering to open at that rate)

It was only level at 4 until yesterday, then they changed level 3 from "indoor with additional restrictions" to outdoor with 15 people only.

sphinxicus · 06-10-2020 4:35pm

MOH wrote: »

The other main change was the additional of a line to the restriction on weddings to state that guests may not attend a wedding in a different county.

Sadly some hotels seem to be turning a blind eye to this addition and are actively suggesting that you provide an address that is within the same county as the hotel.

MOH wrote: »

But by silently rewriting the definition of level 3 the very first time it's been used nationwide, they've just totally undermined it It's actually worse than not having a five stage plan at all, since people are being told we're at level 3 but we have restrictions contradicting what level 3 previously stated. It may as well go in the bin now.

So there is no 5 stage plan, or level 3, we just have whatever restrictions are put in place on an ad-hoc basis.

You are spot on here. They have amended it too much now. The communication from the govt has been farcical. No wonder people are confused as to what they should/shouldn’t do. I could even understand some of the hotels getting confused (although the example i mentioned was a blatant lets get around the rules incident).

New Zealand had it spot on with their levels. They published them, they stuck to them regardless of who in the public moaned. In the end it was very slick, if the situation hit the targets set for moving to the next level, it happened and joe public knew what that meant for them.

The only consistent message ive seen here is, "socially distance, wash your hands, cough etiquette"

Thargor · 06-10-2020 4:57pm

Our landlord sends a cleaner around twice a month that we don't really want at the best of times nevermind during a pandemic, are level 3 restrictions enough to tell him to piss off?

drunkmonkey · 06-10-2020 5:06pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Essential travel is still allowed

All travel is still allowed, the Guards do not have any power to stop you making your lawful way to whatever place you want.

They were pulled up on this before for passing off guidelines as the law. They've done it again and the media is endorsing it with the language used.

moonage · 06-10-2020 5:33pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

All travel is still allowed, the Guards do not have any power to stop you making your lawful way to whatever place you want.

They were pulled up on this before for passing off guidelines as the law. They've done it again and the media is endorsing it with the language used.

I wonder how much of Level 3 is advice and not law.

Clearly, things like "it is advised ,"it is recommended" are guidelines. For example, are the following the law or guidelines?

-visitors to private homes and gardens should be limited to a maximum number of 6 from one other household.
-no social/family gatherings should take place, with exemptions to this for weddings and funerals (see below).
-no organised indoor gatherings should take place. Organised outdoor gatherings are permitted, up to a maximum of 15 people.

MOH · 06-10-2020 6:11pm

moonage wrote: »

I wonder how much of Level 3 is advice and not law.

Clearly, things like "it is advised ,"it is recommended" are guidelines. For example, are the following the law or guidelines?

They're laws, or will be shortly - they've issued SIs for all the regional restrictions so far (e.g. SI 352 implemented those restrictions for Dublin).

I'm not sure about enforcement though. They're all issued under the same of section the 1947 Health Act and that includes "Regulations under this section may provide for their enforcement and execution by officers of the Minister and by health authorities and their officers.....".

But if the SI itself doesn't specify enforcement measures then I don't know. I can't be bothered trawling through all the amendments since 1947 to see if something was added. Or presumable they could issue a separate SI to cover that.

JP Liz V1 · 06-10-2020 6:23pm

BraveDonut wrote: »

To clarify - is outdoor dining in pubs limited to 15 people for level 3 or is that level 4?

(Can't imagine anywhere bothering to open at that rate)

I think no indoor dining only outdoor dining for 15, and with this weather, lovely

deniseedoo · 07-10-2020 11:55am

Due to attend a wedding that will happen while restrictions are in place. My understanding is that a wedding is not an essential journey and says on gov.ie website that guests cannot attend weddings in another county to the one they are resident in.
Most guests at this wedding would be attending from outside the county (only 25, I know).

Groom called last night and said the hotel have said not to worry about it, have guests from different counties, they won't be checking that.

Is this not a breach of restrictions? I know I'm free not to attend and I probably won't, but it is concerning that a hotel is willingly letting a group from at least 6 different counties gather for a whole day.
Posting out of interest more than anything else, maybe I have it wrong.

MIRMIR82 · 07-10-2020 12:07pm

Yes, hotel is in breach 100%

dmakc · 07-10-2020 12:12pm

Under a blanket level approach defining people by their county is a joke to begin with. Let them enjoy their day it was fine only a few days ago.

If you're not comfortable then don't go. No need to spoil it on everyone else

deniseedoo · 07-10-2020 12:13pm

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

Yes, hotel is in breach 100%

Seems very unfair on so many other hotels who have had to close because they can't justify opening their doors when there will be restrictions in place on who can visit. Doesn't seem right that another can just decide 'f#$k that.' I know they have lost a lot of money and need the business but at what cost?

wardides · 07-10-2020 12:14pm

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

Yes, hotel is in breach 100%

Just to play devils advocate, if everyone is booked in to stay at a hotel (aka a resident that day) what are they in breach of? I don't think it is legally up to hotel to check if all the wedding party are coming from the same county. If they are serving alcohol & food to non residents of the hotel then it looks like they are in breach of gov advice.

deniseedoo · 07-10-2020 12:18pm

dmakc wrote: »

Under a blanket level approach defining people by their county is a joke to begin with. Let them enjoy their day it was fine only a few days ago.

If you're not comfortable then don't go. No need to spoil it on everyone else

How will I be spoiling it? As I said, I'm unlikely to go. Made it clear in the original post that I am just asking out of curiosity, I'm not planning on calling in the guards on them. Jesus

Inquitus · 07-10-2020 12:19pm

Given the county restriction is unenforceable advice, if stopped by the Gardai you only need to thank them for their advice and continue on your journey. Personally I will be staying in my county, but at the end of the day this is your choice, and you would be breaking no law. I also have not paid for a hotel stay at a wedding as you might have already.

TexasTornado · 07-10-2020 12:20pm

deniseedoo wrote: »

Due to attend a wedding that will happen while restrictions are in place. My understanding is that a wedding is not an essential journey and says on gov.ie website that guests cannot attend weddings in another county to the one they are resident in.
Most guests at this wedding would be attending from outside the county (only 25, I know).

Groom called last night and said the hotel have said not to worry about it, have guests from different counties, they won't be checking that.

Is this not a breach of restrictions? I know I'm free not to attend and I probably won't, but it is concerning that a hotel is willingly letting a group from at least 6 different counties gather for a whole day.
Posting out of interest more than anything else, maybe I have it wrong.

It's carry on like that from hotels that will screw us all.

deniseedoo · 07-10-2020 12:27pm

Mr.S wrote: »

Is it the hotels responsibility to ask every guest which county they travelled from? Surely that's on the individual. What if the guests lie? There is no way to "prove" it.

The hotel has to ensure capacity is limited per restrictions and that is 100% their responsibility.

Traveling from another county to attend the wedding is a breach of restrictions, but (IMO) it doesn't fall to the hotel themselves to enforce.

Given that the guest list is so small, would there not be a way of asking the couple to provide those details? I suppose they could like as well, you're right. I know it's a burden but given the circumstances. An outbreak of covid related to a wedding is a lot worse than extra admin.

07-10-2020 12:28pm

Mr.S wrote: »

Is it the hotels responsibility to ask every guest which county they travelled from? Surely that's on the individual. What if the guests lie? There is no way to "prove" it.

The hotel has to ensure capacity is limited per restrictions and that is 100% their responsibility.

Traveling from another county to attend the wedding is a breach of restrictions, but (IMO) it doesn't fall to the hotel themselves to enforce.

Precisely.

Can hardly expect a hotel to seek proof of address upon guest's arrival.

MrStuffins · 07-10-2020 12:41pm

deniseedoo wrote: »

Is this not a breach of restrictions? I know I'm free not to attend and I probably won't, but it is concerning that a hotel is willingly letting a group from at least 6 different counties gather for a whole day.

Your concern is not for the wedding, but that the hotel is letting people from different counties attend?

The couple must have been really hard-up for guests if they invited someone like you to their wedding!

finbarrk · 07-10-2020 12:43pm

Any clarity on Hotel Bars? Seemingly residents can be served. But does the hotel bar carry the same restrictions as any other bar? Meaning an outside area for dining/drinking?

Van.Bosch · 07-10-2020 12:48pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Your concern is not for the wedding, but that the hotel is letting people from different counties attend?

The couple must have been really hard-up for guests if they invited someone like you to their wedding!

Don’t think the OP has any concerns, has said a few times they are asking out of curiosity.

dmakc · 07-10-2020 12:50pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Don’t think the OP has any concerns, has said a few times they are asking out of curiosity.

He literally said it's concerning...

Thierry12 · 07-10-2020 12:51pm

No food at this wedding?

looksee · 07-10-2020 12:52pm

The rules are not being made for the entertainment of the government, they are a serious attempt to restrict the spread of the disease. With the level of ignorant, self-centred, stupid responses on show here they are at nothing.

Its almost a pity that it can't be relied on that the people willing to break the rules are the ones to fall sick, with the long term consequences of a viral illness, or death as a result. Sadly it is as likely to be some young one waiting on tables at the wedding, who can't afford to refuse to work, who will end up sick. But that's ok, so long as we don't tell on other people, and show how independent/macho we are by refusing to cooperate.

MrStuffins · 07-10-2020 12:52pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Don’t think the OP has any concerns, has said a few times they are asking out of curiosity.

deniseedoo wrote: »

it is concerning that a hotel is willingly letting a group from at least 6 different counties gather for a whole day.

I don't think the poster is genuine now that I see it's a new reg

07-10-2020 12:54pm

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

Yes, hotel is in breach 100%

How? Has the hotel travelled? No. It hasn't.

The guests stress in breach but then they are only breaching health recommendations, not legal requirements so they can if they want to.

My doctor tells me to eat more veg and less red meat, I still don't.

munchkin_utd · 07-10-2020 12:55pm

MIRMIR82 wrote: »

Yes, hotel is in breach 100%

in breach of what exactly?

There is advice not to cross county boundaries (which btw were randomly created lines on the map by the english 100s of years ago when carving up Ireland as presents for soldiers and suporters) , its not a law.

You are allowed to cross county bounds (by the non legally binding advice) for essential travel -which is not defined
Some define it as visiting relatives (which for many of us who havent seen our parents since last christmas, is getting more necessary by the day) but travelling to be at a one in a lifetime family occassion is not really a frivolous occassion that you can postpone till another time so to many thats very essential travel.

If the only people who are travelling around the country are visiting eldery relatives or attending the miniscule amount of weddings happening nowadays, then the aim of the directive still has its full effect.

woodchuck · 07-10-2020 12:57pm

Technically it's breaking the restrictions, but I don't think it's up to the hotel to police this.

It's bloody hard for couples though, especially with changes happening at the last minute. They've probably gone from having a guestlist of 50 down to 25 within a matter of days. And now they're worrying about where all their guests live and if they can actually travel a few miles across the county border to attend!

deniseedoo · 07-10-2020 12:58pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Your concern is not for the wedding, but that the hotel is letting people from different counties attend?

The couple must have been really hard-up for guests if they invited someone like you to their wedding!

I'm disappointed for them but yeah, my ultimate concern is for the health of my family and if I can avoid attending an event where there is a higher risk of getting the virus. , I'll do it.

gingerhousewife · 07-10-2020 1:02pm

Seems to me the hotel needs to ensure the numbers are within the limit of 25. It is up to each guest to decide if they should travel outside their county. It's the guests who would be ignoring the advice, not the hotel.

whomitconcerns · 07-10-2020 1:03pm

deniseedoo wrote: »

I'm disappointed for them but yeah, my ultimate concern is for the health of my family and if I can avoid attending an event where there is a higher risk of getting the virus. , I'll do it.

Why is there a higher risk, are there some crazies going? Otherwise it's paranoia based on arbitrary rule. You think county boundaries stop a virus?

wardides · 07-10-2020 1:05pm

looksee wrote: »

The rules are not being made for the entertainment of the government, they are a serious attempt to restrict the spread of the disease. With the level of ignorant, self-centred, stupid responses on show here they are at nothing.

Its almost a pity that it can't be relied on that the people willing to break the rules are the ones to fall sick, with the long term consequences of a viral illness, or death as a result. Sadly it is as likely to be some young one waiting on tables at the wedding, who can't afford to refuse to work, who will end up sick. But that's ok, so long as we don't tell on other people, and show how independent/macho we are by refusing to cooperate.

Technically, the rules are being made because the government have inadequately prepared our health service for a pandemic. That was the advice from NPHET that, based off our current health service and fragile ICU capacity, we need to drastically act to stem the spread. I don't think you can be called ignorant for not 100% acting or relying on the advice of a government that have shown themselves, numerous times, to be quite incompetent over the past 12 weeks.

I'm not sure how a hotel or a couple can be blamed for spreading the virus, just because they're all from Kerry and some of their siblings now live in Dublin and need to travel down for the wedding. This is the same government who pushed travelling & staycations across the country for the past 8 weeks, and launched a tax incentive to spend in restaurants & hotels, of which only started 7 days ago!

MrStuffins · 07-10-2020 1:05pm

deniseedoo wrote: »

I'm disappointed for them but yeah, my ultimate concern is for the health of my family and if I can avoid attending an event where there is a higher risk of getting the virus. , I'll do it.

It's very easy to avoid attending the event. Just don't go.

suicide_circus · 07-10-2020 1:06pm

If the couple are going to ignore the spirit of the restrictions like that, they could at least temperature check all guests on arrival, everything outside and be strict as hell on the social distancing;

"Ah do you remember our wedding, dearest? What a lovely day"

"It sure was, pity it killed off Great-Aunty Betty and left Cousin Oisin with narcolepsy though..."

keenanem · 07-10-2020 1:09pm

I honestly think this is one of the guidelines that really doesn't make sense
in all the weddings I've been to none of them have been In the same county to where the bride or groom live.
My brother is due to get married end of October in Dublin, we are based in Wicklow, so does that mean none of the guests can attend the wedding?

munchkin_utd · 07-10-2020 1:19pm

keenanem wrote: »

I honestly think this is one of the guidelines that really doesn't make sense
in all the weddings I've been to none of them have been In the same county to where the bride or groom live.
My brother is due to get married end of October in Dublin, we are based in Wicklow, so does that mean none of the guests can attend the wedding?

Actually, thats a good point

but weddings are in the same bracket as funerals allowed more attendees than anything else, so that surely is a government signal that they are an essential visit / trip

07-10-2020 1:27pm

Numerous hotels are cancelling the bookings of people from outside their county or totally closing up for the duration of level 3 so some hotels are definitely considering it their place to not allow people from other counties stay.

From what I’ve heard of recent weddings once the function room doors close it’s a free for all and no restrictions, social distancing etc so a wedding is a risky thing to be running at the moment imo and a possible cluster creator.

Level 3 National restrictions - Your Q & A's megathread

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