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Armenia and Azerbaijan conflict

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    #122
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,471 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Looks like fighting is spreading into Azerbaijan. The Nagorno-Karabakh military has shelled the cities of Ganja (Azerbaijan's second city) and Beylagan which are both well inside Azeri territory. The Azeri have now warned that military targets inside Armenia are now valid targets

    https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/azerbaijan-says-armenian-forces-shell-second-city-of-ganja-644446

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #123
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Russia took back the Crimea and nobody tried stop them.

    The Russians aren't fazed by much.

    Russia doesn't like a proper fight ,it's all great invading a country or part of country who's caught off guard Georgia ,and a weak Ukraine government and poorly resourced and equipped military for most part ,
    Georgia was a prime example suprise attack on the country which included attacks on primarily civilian infrastructure was going well for the first 24 hours once the Georgians started fighting back and russian tanks and aircraft got taken out , Putin decided that was enough ,was he making a point or did he realised he was in for a fight ,
    By all reports Azerbaijan has seen hundreds of flights of cargo aircraft fly in from Isreal and turkey over the last number of years ,
    Including air defence systems ,now Armenia had something like 50 s300s but at the rate of current losses they might not have any left to make a difference ,
    For russia they have 5000 troops in Armenia but if Georgia gets involved (highly unlikely) they would end up fighting on multiple fronts with nothing to really gain ,

    Id expect this to last 2 weeks at most before Armenia decides peace talks are the best option ,I don't think Turks are running the show
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    #124
    Cheerful Spring2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    Russia took back the Crimea and nobody tried stop them.

    The Russians aren't fazed by much.

    Armenia has a military alliance with Russia. If the request for help is triggered Russia may have no choice.

    CTSO security arrangement Armenia a member.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization#:~:text=The%20Collective%20Security%20Treaty%20Organization,signed%20on%2015%20May%201992.

    Russia refuses the help request this security treaty arrangement may collapse. Putin has to make tough decision here in the next 48 to 72 hours to a week. Armenia not winning the battlefield and probably will lose large swathes of the disputed territory in seven days. It reminds me of Syria. Will they allow Turkey/islamic expansion to go that far? Nobody will know till it unfolds.


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    #125
    Cheerful Spring2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Gatling wrote: »
    Russia doesn't like a proper fight ,it's all great invading a country or part of country who's caught off guard Georgia ,and a weak Ukraine government and poorly resourced and equipped military for most part ,
    Georgia was a prime example suprise attack on the country which included attacks on primarily civilian infrastructure was going well for the first 24 hours once the Georgians started fighting back and russian tanks and aircraft got taken out , Putin decided that was enough ,was he making a point or did he realised he was in for a fight ,
    By all reports Azerbaijan has seen hundreds of flights of cargo aircraft fly in from Isreal and turkey over the last number of years ,
    Including air defence systems ,now Armenia had something like 50 s300s but at the rate of current losses they might not have any left to make a difference ,
    For russia they have 5000 troops in Armenia but if Georgia gets involved (highly unlikely) they would end up fighting on multiple fronts with nothing to really gain ,

    Id expect this to last 2 weeks at most before Armenia decides peace talks are the best option ,I don't think Turks are running the show

    Hitler thought the same and lost his best troops in eastern Europe. Its a myth Soviet Union only won because of the winter, actually most of the battles werre won in the summer time and autumn. The soviet generals outclassed the Nazi generals with superior strategies.

    Thats false history. Georgia got battered and lost the war.
    Date 7–12 August 2008
    (5 days)
    Location
    Georgia
    South Ossetia
    Abkhazia

    Result
    Russian, South Ossetian and Abkhaz victory

    Expulsion of ethnic Georgians from South Ossetia and the Kodori Gorge in Abkhazia[1][2]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

    Ukraine also lost there war. They accepted they couldn't unite the breakaway territory once the split from the Ukraine. All military efforts to do so failed.

    Only thing i agree with here is Armenia seems to be losing the battlefield at the moment.


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    #126
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

    Thats false histor

    Ukraine also lost there war. They accepted they couldn't unite the breakaway territory once the split from the Ukraine.

    Stop with the b's you haven't a clue .

    Ukraine lost their war lol explains why Putin had to hide the losses of men and equipment and were held of by a bunch of rag tag militia's , remember crying about the azoz battalions and Right wing groups mainly football houligans.

    Russias biggest success was shooting down flight MH17

    Actually russian losses for Afghanistan , Chechen wars and Ukraine far exceeds American casualties in the various wars on terror
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #127
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »
    Armenia has a military alliance with Russia. If the request for help is triggered Russia may have no choice.

    CTSO security arrangement Armenia a member.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization#:~:text=The%20Collective%20Security%20Treaty%20Organization,signed%20on%2015%20May%201992.

    Russia refuses the help request this security treaty arrangement may collapse. Putin has to make tough decision here in the next 48 to 72 hours to a week. Armenia not winning the battlefield and probably will lose large swathes of the disputed territory in seven days. It reminds me of Syria. Will they allow Turkey/islamic expansion to go that far? Nobody will know till it unfolds.

    Good point in bringing up the CTSO which is often overlooked.

    No doubt Russia doesn't want to be drawn into a localized conflict, but to be honest this is beginning to look more regional now as fighting spills out of Nagorno-Karabakh. There will come a point where Armenia will have to trigger the CTSO if they start coming under serious pressure. I'd imagine Russian diplomacy is in overdrive behind the scenes trying to prevent a formal triggering of the CTSO at the minute.

    The situation in Belarus is also important in a way. Why should the Belarusian security forces feel confident in continuing to crack down on dissidents if they realize the CTSO is worthless and they will not receive Russian assistance if things start to implode domestically? It's a balancing act for Russia. The last thing it wants is for a hostile Belarusian Government to take power on its doorstep.

    To be honest, the situation in both the caucasus and Eastern Europe in recent years is alarming. Serious political pressures in Ukraine and Belarus and escalating ethnic tensions in the likes of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. Then we have Turkish nationalists who are clearly fervent for war. It's dangerous.


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    #128
    Cheerful Spring2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Gatling wrote: »
    Stop with the b's you haven't a clue .

    Ukraine lost their war lol explains why Putin had to hide the losses of men and equipment and were held of by a bunch of rag tag militia's , remember crying about the azoz battalions and Right wing groups mainly football houligans.

    Russias biggest success was shooting down flight MH17

    Actually russian losses for Afghanistan , Chechen wars and Ukraine far exceeds American casualties in the various wars on terror

    It's false history Crimea, Kherson Oblast, Donetsk Oblast and Luhansk Oblast are all held still today by Russian backed forces :confused: All advances by the Ukranian army was crushed. Putin could have taken all off Ukraine if he wanted but wasn't the goal. He only defended areas allied with Russia.

    Russia won the Checken war. Facts don't seem to matter for you :) There always losses in a war, its the end result that matters.

    Mikhail Gorbachev, redrew the soviet forces because he had bigger plans in mind. The Soviet Union lost interest in holding this territory. Nine years of war fighting there was enough. America there since 2003 and still hasn't won.


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    #129
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »
    All advances by the Ukranian army was crushed.

    Seems your wrong but not for the first time ...



    I'd imagine Sputnik doesn't pay well
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    #130
    Cheerful Spring2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,705 ✭✭✭Cheerful Spring2


    Gatling wrote: »
    Seems your wrong but not for the first time ...

    What land did they take back from the Russian-backed forces? If it's wrong, you can point out in a map that shows Ukranian army successes.

    Another fact you haven't read.
    Date 7 August – 2 September 2014[4][5]
    (3 weeks and 5 days)
    Location
    Ilovaisk, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine
    Result
    Decisive DPR/Russian victory    [6][7][8]

    One of the factors that led to the signing of the Minsk Protocol

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ilovaisk


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    #131
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »
    What land did they take back from the Russian-backed forces?


    Quite a bit they pushed the Russians back and wasn't it a bunch of lads who help off the best of Russia could muster to take Mariupol port from football supporters .

    Thousands of Russian men and armour lost to a rag tag group .

    Ukraine is still Ukraine bar parts under occupation ,donesk airport is another prime example , high russian casualties for nothing against a small poor equipped volunteers who were begging for food and supplies on social media , Putin had to order the complete destruction of the airport because his forces couldn't take it ,
    Imagine in this day and age hiding war dead with secret mass burials and refusing to tell his family's were there sons and fathers were buried because of secrecy laws he brought in .

    Victorious if that's what you call it id hate to see what you consider a loss for russia
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #132
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Meanwhile back in Armenia


    Armenia's president reached out to trump wanting to ask if Turkey had permission to attack Armenia with with f16s and possibly American weapons ,
    They got as far as an advisor who promised a return call from Donald just before his covid diagnosis ,

    Slightly odd that they went to America asking for help considering they are russian backed,

    There's so far no proof Turkish jets are operating out of Azerbaijan ,bar a photo of a Turkish patch on a uniform on social media we've seen nothing else to go on

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/10/04/world/europe/armenia-nagorno-karabakh-trump.amp.html
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    #133
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Azeris claiming that the Armenians are using ballistic missiles now.

    https://twitter.com/Conflicts/status/1312838435493863425


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    #134
    Jimbob1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭Jimbob1977


    I wonder if either nation has nuclear weapons?

    Or did Russian SSR take everything with them after the collapse of the Soviet Union?


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    #135
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Jimbob1977 wrote: »
    I wonder if either nation has nuclear weapons?

    Or did Russian SSR take everything with them after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

    Neither Armenia or Azerbaijan had nuclear weapons when the Soviet Union collapsed and still don't have any.

    Turkey do not have have any nuclear weapons either, although they host nuclear weapons via NATO which are controlled by the US.


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    #136
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Neither Armenia or Azerbaijan had nuclear weapons when the Soviet Union collapsed and still don't have any.

    Turkey do not have have any nuclear weapons either, although they host nuclear weapons via NATO which are controlled by the US.

    Apparently 40 warheads at most being held at Incirlik airbase they shipped a good amount out to Romania after the fake coup in Turkey a few years ago
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #137
    toffee dave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭toffee dave


    Gatling wrote: »
    Quite a bit they pushed the Russians back and wasn't it a bunch of lads who help off the best of Russia could muster to take Mariupol port from football supporters .

    Thousands of Russian men and armour lost to a rag tag group .

    Ukraine is still Ukraine bar parts under occupation ,donesk airport is another prime example , high russian casualties for nothing against a small poor equipped volunteers who were begging for food and supplies on social media , Putin had to order the complete destruction of the airport because his forces couldn't take it ,
    Imagine in this day and age hiding war dead with secret mass burials and refusing to tell his family's were there sons and fathers were buried because of secrecy laws he brought in .

    Victorious if that's what you call it id hate to see what you consider a loss for russia
    Along with volunteers,Donetsk Airport was defended by the 79th and 95th airmobile brigades,as well as mechanized brigades of the regular Ukrainian military.They ended up withdrawing and giving up the airport.
    Today Russia and Russian backed separatist's control over 7% of Ukrainian territory.As for Georgia,they lost South Ossetia along with parts of Abaktaza in less then a week of fighting.


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    #138
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Incredible stuff seeing Erdogan funnelling in jihadi scumbags from Syria but no real surprise there considering he was actively sponsoring some of these groups and passively facilitating ISIS. The jihadi militias in control of Idlib are effectively Turkish proxies now.

    I’ve said it before, Erdogan is one of the biggest threats to peace in the world today representing both aggressive militaristic nationalism and also expansionist reactionary Islamic fundamentalism at the same time.


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    #139
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Seems be a rumour doing the rounds that Belarus was supplying Azerbaijan with with weapons ,we know Lukashenko is both broke and losing his grip on power in Belarus ongoing weekly protests about his fixed election ,now considering there part of this loose military group with Russia and Armenia ,it doesn't bode well that one of the supposed lynchpins to that alliance is supplying an aggressor to the alliance
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    #140
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    FTA69 wrote: »

    I’ve said it before, Erdogan is one of the biggest threats to peace in the world today representing both aggressive militaristic nationalism and also expansionist reactionary Islamic fundamentalism at the same time.

    But are they ,the only places I've heard it was the guardian (pro Putin) and unvaried claims on twitter and Armenian media (pro russian) we have seen claims of Turkish f16s bombing in Armenia and shooting down their aircraft ,
    But absolutely no evidence has been shown that any of it is true ,
    Erdokan is an absolute **** head , maybe he's more of s bad guy because he's publicly slapped Putin on several occasions now
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    #141
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Gatling wrote: »
    But are they ,the only places I've heard it was the guardian (pro Putin) and unvaried claims on twitter and Armenian media (pro russian) we have seen claims of Turkish f16s bombing in Armenia and shooting down their aircraft ,
    But absolutely no evidence has been shown that any of it is true ,
    Erdokan is an absolute **** head , maybe he's more of s bad guy because he's publicly slapped Putin on several occasions now

    1) I’m critical of Erdogan because he’s a religious conservative, a de facto dictator and someone pursuing expansionist and aggressive foreign policy while maintaining crippling oppression of the Kurds - I don’t dislike him because I’m a ‘Russian bot’ or whatever.

    2) The Guardian is pro-Putin? Give me a break mate. They’re a watery liberal paper for London cosmopolitans, saying they’re pro-Putin is laughable.


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    #142
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    FTA69 wrote: »
    I don’t dislike him because I’m a ‘Russian bot’ or whatever.

    2) The Guardian is pro-Putin? Give me a break mate. They’re a watery liberal paper for London cosmopolitans, saying they’re pro-Putin is laughable.

    Never said or implied it , erdokan is a complete ****head there is no disputing that ,the guardian repeatedly posted Pro Putin articles During the Ukraine median protests and russian invasion - even there comment sections became bot Central litterally hundreds to accounts trying to shut down any anti Putin discussions,

    If erdokan is funnelling jihadis to Azerbaijan he should face utter condemnation and face heavy sanctions ,but so far the only evidence has come from Armenian sources /russian sources at the same time claiming turkey is bombing Armenia ,
    It's like someone is trying to get putin to get directly
    involved which could draw in other players to an already complex situation,

    Think about this Friday (I think) we had a poster claiming the Turk's were on the ground calling the shots ,then we got the jihadis claim rapidly followed by the first jihadis death according to a tweet ,and an article in Armenia saying jihadis were running amok and attacking locals .

    It's all a bit convenient
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    #143
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    Gatling wrote: »
    If erdokan is funnelling jihadis to Azerbaijan he should face utter condemnation and face heavy sanctions ,but so far the only evidence has come from Armenian sources /russian sources at the same time claiming turkey is bombing Armenia ,
    It's like someone is trying to get putin to get directly
    involved which could draw in other players to an already complex situation,

    Think about this Friday (I think) we had a poster claiming the Turk's were on the ground calling the shots ,then we got the jihadis claim rapidly followed by the first jihadis death according to a tweet ,and an article in Armenia saying jihadis were running amok and attacking locals .

    It's all a bit convenient
    There's absolutely no reason for condemnation of Turkey shipping Jihadi's around or arming them, the West has been doing that for decades as part of it's asymetric warfare. Given past examples I don't think it's propaganda.


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    #144
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,466 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    This of course, considering the historical relationship between Armenia and Turkey, only serves to inflame tensions.

    https://twitter.com/MuradGazdiev/status/1313094919100268548


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    #145
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    This of course, considering the historical relationship between Armenia and Turkey, only serves to inflame tensions.

    https://twitter.com/MuradGazdiev/status/1313094919100268548

    Absolutely no need for that to happen , again if you go back to minsk agreements very little representation for Ukraine one ex president (pro russian) , france, Germany ,and the two russian military officers who run the occupied Ukrainian areas ,

    Would you blame them for wanting someone who's not afraid of the Russians to be a signatory .
    Don't support it myself but I can see how this could go
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    #146
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    The Azerbaijani ambassador’s reference to Nagorno-Karabakh (Letters, 1 October) needs correction. Indeed, the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh) is not one over a disputed territory but about the issue of self-determination and fundamental human rights, including the inalienable right of Armenians of Artsakh to live freely and peacefully on the land of their ancestors.

    Nagorno-Karabakh has never been a part of independent Azerbaijan, as its people voted for independence in full compliance with the norms of international law and existing domestic legislation and according to the same legal basis as Azerbaijan in 1991.

    The key to lasting peace in the region is the recognition of the human security and rights of the people of Artsakh. Instead, on 27 September Azerbaijan initiated another large-scale military aggression against Nagorno-Karabakh with the support of Turkey.
    Aram Araratyan
    Press officer, Armenian embassy, London
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/04/self-determination-in-nagorno-karabakh

    It's not an independence vote that EU will accept, unlike Kosovo, which was actually less clear.


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    #147
    toffee dave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭toffee dave


    Gatling wrote: »
    Seems be a rumour doing the rounds that Belarus was supplying Azerbaijan with with weapons ,we know Lukashenko is both broke and losing his grip on power in Belarus ongoing weekly protests about his fixed election ,now considering there part of this loose military group with Russia and Armenia ,it doesn't bode well that one of the supposed lynchpins to that alliance is supplying an aggressor to the alliance
    Rumours?Belarus has supplied weapon systems to Azerbaijan for years.They have sold tanks,spg artillery,Su 25 aircraft etc etc.In 2018 they supplied em with Polonez missle systems.All this information is widely available.


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    #148
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    toffee dave wrote: »
    Rumours?Belarus has supplied weapon systems to Azerbaijan for years.They have sold tanks,spg artillery,Su 25 aircraft etc etc.In 2018 they supplied em with Polonez missle systems.All this information is widely available.

    Anyone can read the first thing that comes up on Google dated 2000-2016 .
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #149
    toffee dave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭toffee dave


    Gatling wrote: »
    Anyone can read the first thing that comes up on Google dated 2000-2016 .

    What is your point?


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    #150
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    toffee dave wrote: »
    What is your point?


    that anyone one can read the first thing that pops up on Google
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    #151
    toffee dave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭toffee dave


    Gatling wrote: »
    that anyone one can read the first thing that pops up on Google

    What do you think of Russia's military sales to Azerbaijan.


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