Armenia and Azerbaijan conflict

Jimbob1977

There's been a worrying escalation in the Armenian vs Azerbaijan conflict this morning.

Long story short, the two sides have clashed over the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region.

De jure it is part of Azerbaijan; however it is de facto an Armenian enclave with a majority Armenian population.

The Soviet Union put a lid on the conflict, but the two countries have been sniping since independence.

As expected, Turkey supports Azerbaijan. The Turks never acknowledge the Armenian genocide.

Russia, Iran and the European Union have called for cool heads.

There are shades of the Balkans conflict here. A war of culture, ethnicity and religion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/armenia-azerbaijan-attack-bombing-nagorno-karabakh-clash-b640984.html

BoroMan32

I see Azerbaijan's parliament have declared a ''state of war'' against Armenia.

Manach

I remember when the original conflict broke out post fall of the USSR. The fighting was fairly brutal leading to many columns of refugees trying to escape the fighting. Hopefully the regional powers can put a clamp on this before it escalates.

Harry Palmr

This is a blast from the past.

Jimbob1977

It's very like the Balkans or Northern Ireland.

Age-old simmering disputes that polarise communities.

Them versus Us

TheBlackPill

The poor Armenians, they have lost so much already, genocided, scattered and now this

AMKC

I really hope this can be stopped before it escalates into something much bigger say Turkey V Russia etc.
They need to talk over there problems and negotiate not fight over it.

Del.Monte

It's all over the BBC World Service - no reportage whatsoever on Irish stations today unless I missed it. It's a dangerous situation with Greece and Turkey (two NATO countries) also again on he brink of open hostilities over gas drilling in the Eastern Med. A conspiracy theorist could be forgiven for thinking that Putin, Erdoğan and Trump cooked it up between them.

Cheerful Spring2

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's all over the BBC World Service - no reportage whatsoever on Irish stations today unless I missed it. It's a dangerous situation with Greece and Turkey (two NATO countries) also again on he brink of open hostilities over gas drilling in the Eastern Med. A conspiracy theorist could be forgiven for thinking that Putin, Erdoğan and Trump cooked it up between them.

Armenia is in a CSTO alliance. It has similar principles in line with the Nato Charter. With CSTO if Armenia triggers it, the Russian Federation Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan. are all obliged to come to its aid during a war. This could get bad since Turkey is backed by Nato and there backing Azerbaijan war here. Armenia president had made allegations Turkish F-16s and drones are now involved. Israel also backs Azerbajan.

It's too early to tel if Russia would commit to war with Turkey here and potentially drag in Nato.

phelixoflaherty

https://youtu.be/hd-6WweqD0Y

DraftDodger

The human race never learns. Its in our nature to destroy ourselves

Del.Monte

DraftDodger wrote: »

The human race never learns. Its in our nature to destroy ourselves

Rubbish, it's a failure of leadership at the top in letting a bunch of fascist thugs get into power. It's not in my nature to want to destroy anything or anybody - I'll make an exception in the case of Putin, Trump, Rocket Man in North Korea, the Turkish, Iranian and Saudi leadership - on a personal basis not their people.

suicide_circus

Del.Monte wrote: »

Rubbish, it's a failure of leadership at the top in letting a bunch of fascist thugs get into power. It's not in my nature to want to destroy anything or anybody - I'll make an exception in the case of Putin, Trump, Rocket Man in North Korea, the Turkish, Iranian and Saudi leadership - on a personal basis not their people.

Trump has his flaws, oh so many flaws, but warmonger is not one of them, bit of sabre rattling at North Korea aside.

Ten of Swords

Prime Minister of Armenia has mobilized the country's military and declared martial law

https://twitter.com/NikolPashinyan/status/1310146071004315648

Yurt2

Azerbaijan will be tooled-up with Israeli weapons kit. Very cosy relationship between Israel and Azerbaijan.

Visited Armenia a number of years ago, stunning country that is off most people's radar. The women there are flat-out stunning. It's also a country that if things went their way could take off economically. Very educated population and it was a scientific research hotbed during the Soviet Union.

Never been to Azerbaijan but by all accounts it's a autocratic petro-dollar sh*tbox on the Caspian.

DraftDodger

DraftDodger wrote: »

The human race never learns. Its in our nature to destroy ourselves

Terminator II.

4068ac1elhodqr

Armenia gave us the Kardishans, but the Azerbaijanis always fair well at the Eurovision.
So difficult to take sides here, as they project increasingly large ordnance skybound at each other.

Dravokivich

Malaysia Easy Rakishly wrote: »

Armenia gave us the Kardishans, but the Azerbaijanis always fair well at the Eurovision.
So difficult to take sides here, as they project increasingly large ordnance skybound at each other.

Armenia also gave us system of a down.

Gatling

There goes this year's Eurovision !

biko

Tensions between Greece and Turkey, India and Pakistan, China vs everybody.

Armenia vs Azerbaijan enters the server

jmayo

suicide_circus wrote: »

Trump has his flaws, oh so many flaws, but warmonger is not one of them, bit of sabre rattling at North Korea aside.

Yeah he just lets his backer Putin do what he wants and leaves his former allies up sh** Creek when he does deal with their enemy.
Just ask the Kurds on that last one.

Malaysia Easy Rakishly wrote: »

Armenia gave us the Kardishans, but the Azerbaijanis always fair well at the Eurovision.
So difficult to take sides here, as they project increasingly large ordnance skybound at each other.

Correction the yanks gave us the Kardashians.
Don't blame the Armenians for a bunch of self entitled big ars*d American women.

silverharp

could someone give a handy list of how to pick a side? is there an obvious good guy bad guy or is it complicated?

ohnonotgmail

Malaysia Easy Rakishly wrote: »

Armenia gave us the Kardishans, but the Azerbaijanis always fair well at the Eurovision.
So difficult to take sides here, as they project increasingly large ordnance skybound at each other.

armenia gave us charles aznavour and for that we should be eternally grateful

Gatling

silverharp wrote: »

could someone give a handy list of how to pick a side? is there an obvious good guy bad guy or is it complicated?

It's slightly complicated but Russia is at the heart of it along with turkey,
Both sides are backed to a degree by russia one is rules by a former kgb officer while the other is also military backed by russia but see's it's self an alternative to russian oil and gas supplier to Europe ,

Russia has been supporting Armenia military wise and have support agreements in place , Azerbaijan has been spending big on military equipment and modernising it's military over the last few years due to its Oil and gas sales

Turkey wants to be a big player in the region but it's complicated history with Armenia and refusal to even acknowledge the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians during WWI by the then ottomans .

There is no real clear cut good guys Vs bad guys in the current situation

da_miser

Am i the only one who does not care?
Its half a world away, let them at it.

silverharp

Gatling wrote: »

It's slightly complicated but Russia is at the heart of it along with turkey,
Both sides are backed to a degree by russia one is rules by a former kgb officer while the other is also military backed by russia but see's it's self an alternative to russian oil and gas supplier to Europe ,

Russia has been supporting Armenia military wise and have support agreements in place , Azerbaijan has been spending big on military equipment and modernising it's military over the last few years due to its Oil and gas sales

Turkey wants to be a big player in the region but it's complicated history with Armenia and refusal to even acknowledge the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians during WWI by the then ottomans .

There is no real clear cut good guys Vs bad guys in the current situation

Seems Turkey is in the middle of a lot of these things, I wonder was that even a factor behind the recent Arab states thaw with Israel this year?

Zebra3

To go back to the start of the conflict, both nations left the USSR, and then Nagorno-Karabakh which had a form of self-government and mainly full of Armenians declared independence from Azerbaijan.

So if Azerbaijan had the right to declare independence from the USSR, did NK likewise have the right to declare independence from Azerbaijan? This would be very similar to Kosovo which was an autonomous area within Serbia but not a republic within the federal Yugoslavia.

Under international law however it is still part of Azerbaijan, and Armenia also occupies areas of the rest of Azerbaijan surrounding NK.

Russia is happy enough to see two of its' former Soviet republics at each other's throats (divide and conquer) and the US has splinters up its' arse. Big ethnic Armenian community in the US, but Azerbaijan has oil.

Was in NK ten years ago in both Stepanakert and Shushi, very interesting place to visit. Literally the day after I left there was a skirmish at one of the no-man's land areas and five soldiers were killed.

Anyone really interested in it all, I'd recommend a great book called Black Garden.

Trouser Snake

da_miser wrote: »

Am i the only one who does not care?
Its half a world away, let them at it.

Until the EU start taking in more refugees fleeing the area.

wes

TheBlackPill wrote: »

The poor Armenians, they have lost so much already, genocided, scattered and now this

The Armenians ethnically cleansed Azeri's during the first conflict. They are far from innocent in this:

https://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/X2H-Xref-ViewHTML.asp?FileID=11283&lang=EN

da_miser

Trouser Snake wrote: »

Until the EU start taking in more refugees fleeing the area.

Wont happen, Armenians are Christian, their kind are persona non grata as refugees

Open the Pubs

https://twitter.com/KimKardashian/status/1310278055768846338

https://twitter.com/KimKardashian/status/1310278059266904069

https://twitter.com/HenrikhMkh/status/1310167328458448898

https://twitter.com/HenrikhMkh/status/1310167775961325568


Turkey seem to be aligned with Azerbaijan. Iran, Greece and Syria with Armenia. Israel, USA, Russia neutral so far. EU irrelevant as usual. Armenia are in some defence group with Russia and other ex Soviet countries like Kazakhstan, which could be important, Azerbaijan are not in that group anymore but have oil money.

Del.Monte

da_miser wrote: »

Am i the only one who does not care?
Its half a world away, let them at it.

You'll care quickly enough if a NATO country gets attacked i.e. Turkey by Russia - an attack on one NATO country is regarded as an attack on all NATO countries. I suppose ignorance is bliss and when you're vapourised with the rest of us you'll die wondering why. :rolleyes:

no.8

Many don't agree on the status Turkey holds and reject the idea of Turkey joining the EU. That is especially vindicated given their actions in recent years.

Having said that, it wont matter a damn vs. NATO's current policy, whether we like it or not.

Gatling

It's not a nato issue ,

Russia won't attack turkey this is nothing more than the usual skirmishes that have been happening for the past 30 + years both lose men and equipment ,and Russia happily sells them more .
Then it quitens down for another decade

Del.Monte

Gatling wrote: »

It's not a nato issue ,

Russia won't attack turkey this is nothing more than the usual skirmishes that have been happening for the past 30 + years both lose men and equipment ,and Russia happily sells them more .
Then it quitens down for another decade

I'm not suggesting that Russia will launch an attack on Turkey but things have a nasty habit of escalating by accident and one things lead to another. As far as I'm concerned the entire population of Turkey is not worth the life of a single Western European soldier or civilian. The same goes for the Armenians etc.etc.

Airyfairy12

Thats just what 2020 needs, a big war to round the year off!!

Gods Gift

Must be a pain waging a war with all the covid restrictions and guidelines.

Galwayguy35

They have been fighting each other over in that part of the world for the last thousand years over one thing or another.

Best to just leave them to it.

TheBlackPill

da_miser wrote: »

Am i the only one who does not care?
Its half a world away, let them at it.

and when we have 3 million angry young men on foot on the move heading towards the european welfare states? and it won't be the Armenians either

Zebra3

TheBlackPill wrote: »

and when we have 3 million angry young men on foot on the move heading towards the european welfare states? and it won't be the Armenians either

Why not?

TheBlackPill

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why not?

Because they will be accomodated in the rump Armenian state(provided that isn;t overrun by Turkey), and previous Armenian refugees have integrated quite well wherever they went.

KilOit

Any Armenian I've met has been dead sound, smart proud people that mix very well into any society they live in

mikeym

First ive heard of it.

Hopefully there wont be a war.

TheBlackPill

mikeym wrote: »

First ive heard of it.

Hopefully there wont be a war.

There already is. videos on line of airstrikes and dead bodies

igCorcaigh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fVSjz5EYXU

da_miser

Del.Monte wrote: »

You'll care quickly enough if a NATO country gets attacked i.e. Turkey by Russia - an attack on one NATO country is regarded as an attack on all NATO countries. I suppose ignorance is bliss and when you're vapourised with the rest of us you'll die wondering why. :rolleyes:

Like in Syria?
Russia and NATO are at war the last few years there , using proxies, same will happen in this conflict, the world will keep on turning, no big deal, let them at it.
OR
Armenia being a Enemy of Turkey as is Greece who have been having problems with Turkey the last few months, could play the Orthodox Christian card, we could see Greece join the conflict, that's the NATO angle nullified , Russia could wade on in then as the protector of Orthodox Christianity.
Cant see any EU or US politician getting the public to join the fight against Christians on the side of Muslims.
Maybe that's the plan all along, Istanbul will be Constantinople once again.

igCorcaigh

It would be best if regional powers keep back from using proxies in this one.

A political solution is needed.

Utterly shameful to see Erdoğan supporting the war. But what else would you expect from that neanderthal.

bobbyy gee

War

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54324772

dzsfah2xoynme9

Meh. Another conflict somewhere in the world. The media will be loving this. People are getting bored of Covid and the media needs something else to feed people's fear and paranoia.
Much worse going ons in Yemen but not a peep about that.

Gatling

da_miser wrote: »

Like in Syria?
Russia and NATO are at war the last few years there , using proxies, same will happen in this conflict, the world will keep on turning, no big deal, let them at it.

In this case it's Russia Vs russia , yes turkey wants to get involved again ,
But both countries involved are russian backed puppets they even have a permanent military base in Armenia while supplying Azerbaijan with military support too.

Unless there is an all out war for whatever reason this will all settle down in a week or two

da_miser

Gatling wrote: »

In this case it's Russia Vs russia , yes turkey wants to get involved again ,
But both countries involved are russian backed puppets they even have a permanent military base in Armenia while supplying Azerbaijan with military support too.

Unless there is an all out war for whatever reason this will all settle down in a week or two

Azerbaijan is supported by Israel, how will the US act if Armenian Christian are being slaughtered by Muslims, will they support Israel in backing the Muslims?
Will Greece stand by or get involved, will Russia join to help fellow Orthodox Christians?