Next%- the ongoing debate

partyguinness · 01-10-2020 9:40am #1

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/30/eliud-kipchoge-denies-platform-nike-shoes-offer-london-race-advantage

I have a pair and yes they absolutely give me faster times. I guess they are fair as long as everyone else wear them!

I wear them sparingly. I have them just over 12 months and probably worn them 4-5 times. I wore them for 2 Parkruns on New Years day just gone and then again about 2 weeks ago just for a cheeky 60min run.

I have run them same 10k route probably 14-15 times in the past 4 months in Clifton 6 Hokas. It is flat and on a cycle path. With the Next% I ran it on average 10-15 seconds per km quicker and without feeling it. In fact I ran a 44min 10 KM which included the 10 minutes of a w/u and c/d.

Rather than a standard Wednesday evening steady 60 min run if I had rocked up to a 10k roadrace with gameface on I would have obliterated my 10k PB down to 40min.

Yes of course you still have to get and run but anyone who says they do not give an advantage is in dream land.

Murph_D · 01-10-2020 9:42pm

partyguinness wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/sep/30/eliud-kipchoge-denies-platform-nike-shoes-offer-london-race-advantage

I have a pair and yes they absolutely give me faster times. I guess they are fair as long as everyone else wear them!

I wear them sparingly. I have them just over 12 months and probably worn them 4-5 times. I wore them for 2 Parkruns on New Years day just gone and then again about 2 weeks ago just for a cheeky 60min run.

I have run them same 10k route probably 14-15 times in the past 4 months in Clifton 6 Hokas. It is flat and on a cycle path. With the Next% I ran it on average 10-15 seconds per km quicker and without feeling it. In fact I ran a 44min 10 KM which included the 10 minutes of a w/u and c/d.

Rather than a standard Wednesday evening steady 60 min run if I had rocked up to a 10k roadrace with gameface on I would have obliterated my 10k PB down to 40min.

Yes of course you still have to get and run but anyone who says they do not give an advantage is in dream land.

The article is about the Alphafly, not Vaporfly, which you probably have. I have a pair too, and yes, there’s no doubt they ‘work’. But as you say yourself, if your competitors are wearing them too, where’s the advantage?

They certainly feel great and they certainly help you run faster with less apparent effort. You can’t argue with the results. Ultimately they lead to Marathon times coming down at the competitive end of all levels, including GFA marathon standards. I feel I have to wear them to have any chance of making the London standard, for example, although the shoes will probably see those times reduced as well, shifting the goalposts in response to the improved times all round.

OOnegative · 02-10-2020 8:57am

Murph_D wrote: »

The article is about the Alphafly, not Vaporfly, which you probably have. I have a pair too, and yes, there’s no doubt they ‘work’. But as you say yourself, if your competitors are wearing them too, where’s the advantage?

They certainly feel great and they certainly help you run faster with less apparent effort. You can’t argue with the results. Ultimately they lead to Marathon times coming down at the competitive end of all levels, including GFA marathon standards. I feel I have to wear them to have any chance of making the London standard, for example, although the shoes will probably see those times reduced as well, shifting the goalposts in response to the improved times all round.

Cheat!!!!!

healy1835 · 02-10-2020 9:45am

Is there anybody saying they don't make a difference? I've ran a good few races in the NEXT% and the improvements haven't been as marked for me as they have for other guys I train with...but I aint toeing the line in anything else. Like Murph said, when you're chasing qualifying times etc you don't want to be at a disadvantage to the next guy.

TFBubendorfer · 02-10-2020 9:59am

OOnegative wrote: »

Cheat!!!!!

*groan*

The Statler and Waldorf tribute act is at it again!

OOnegative · 02-10-2020 10:25am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

*groan*

The Statler and Waldorf tribute act is at it again!

I was only joking, each to there own on wearing them, they’re legal so no cheating involved. I myself won’t as the price is ridiculous.

Swashbuckler · 02-10-2020 11:48am

I get that anyone chasing a GFA or at the pointy end of the field has no choice but to wear them. What I can't get my head around is mid pack runners who's only competition is with themselves and their own personal improvement insisting they need to wear them coz everyone else is.

I guess in time, the more they're worn the more the gains will level out.

partyguinness · 02-10-2020 12:23pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get that anyone chasing a GFA or at the pointy end of the field has no choice but to wear them. What I can't get my head around is mid pack runners who's only competition is with themselves and their own personal improvement insisting they need to wear them coz everyone else is.

I guess in time, the more they're worn the more the gains will level out.

...because the competition with themselves is still a competition albeit with themsleves I guess and their own personal improvement.

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Unthought Known · 02-10-2020 1:25pm

partyguinness wrote: »

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Unless you used to run at 9:20 per mile and they have helped you achieve your first sub 4.

average_runner · 02-10-2020 1:38pm

partyguinness wrote: »

...because the competition with themselves is still a competition albeit with themsleves I guess and their own personal improvement.

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Each to their own sure. But if you put a euro away for each km you run they be affordable

Haven't bought a pair yet, don't think my current fitness warrants me wearing them

and still ricky villa · 02-10-2020 2:36pm

They are cheatalicious. So far I've only managed a 10k pb with them. They went back in the bag after Manchester got cancelled.

I'm a long term Mizuno wearer and their new Enerzy foam is disappointing. Slightly more bouncy but nowhere near the Nikes. They've missed a trick by not making the Wave plate more springy

I'll stick with the Nikes for race pace and actual races. I'm skirting around sub 3 so feel I deserve them

Annie get your Run · 02-10-2020 2:59pm

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

OOnegative · 02-10-2020 3:09pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

Sssssh, stop talking common sense.......

Swashbuckler · 02-10-2020 3:15pm

Annie get your Run wrote:

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

I don't disagree in principle but......to me these are more of a single leap forward than previous runners. Not that it matters really I guess.

If I run a 35 minute 10k next week in Next % it won't tell me anything about whether I'm a better runner than when I ran a 36 min 10k in Adizero.....

adrian522 · 02-10-2020 4:43pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Haven't allrunning shoes in the last, what - 20 years? been designed and manufactured to help runners run faster? Why are these any different? Everything elites wear/eat/do is designed to improve performance so if they're not illegal then there's no cheating involved.

These are different because the scale of the jump is unprecedented, they are not available to everyone and they make making comparisons to other races (even quite recent races) completely redundant.

But the main problem is some people will get more of an improvement then others from these shoes, so the question then becomes who is the better athlete? And how do you judge that question when watching a race?

To my mind they have made a complete mess of road distance running. Records mean nothing anymore. A 2:05 from 5 years ago is much more impressive than a 2:03 now.

Annie get your Run · 02-10-2020 5:36pm

adrian522 wrote: »

These are different because the scale of the jump is unprecedented, they are not available to everyone and they make making comparisons to other races (even quite recent races) completely redundant.

But the main problem is some people will get more of an improvement then others from these shoes, so the question then becomes who is the better athlete? And how do you judge that question when watching a race?

To my mind they have made a complete mess of road distance running. Records mean nothing anymore. A 2:05 from 5 years ago is much more impressive than a 2:03 now.

This is the bit that clarifies it for me, that makes sense. Not sure about the 'who's the better athlete' bit though as surely shoes have always benefited some runners more than others (shoes you swear by will give someone else an achilleas injury!). Presumably this will all settle down when all manufacturers have their version and runners will be on a more equal footing (excuse the pun)?

adrian522 · 02-10-2020 5:57pm

I mean the Nike shoes may give one athlete a 5% improvement and another athlete a 3% improvement, so Athlete A wins the race, but is that because of better physiology, better training or a better adaption to these new shoes? We don't know, which is the issue I have with all this.

Advances in shoe technology in the past were very gradual so didn't really affect the results nearly as much as this latest generation of shoes does.

The good thing now is at least there are some regulations and also there are competitors to Nike bringing out their own versions.

Tigerandahalf · 02-10-2020 8:45pm

The problem I have with these is that they make a mockery of historic records. A person who ran a sub 60 10 mile 5 years ago could compare themselves to someone who ran it 20 or 50 years ago. But with these shoes that changes things.

There is also the issue of the crazy price. Nearly €300 for the new Alphaflys.
A teenager could steal a title by having well to do parents versus someone who can't fork out that money.

I'd prefer if they were banned but I will probably have to buy at some stage, as someone said before to me you will soon be disadvantaged as everyone else has them.

Swashbuckler · 02-10-2020 8:48pm

Tigerandahalf wrote:

I'd prefer if they were banned but I will probably have to buy at some stage, as someone said before to me you will soon be disadvantaged as everyone else has them.

Unless you're at the pointy end or looking for a GFA time then why are you disadvantaged?

Tigerandahalf · 02-10-2020 8:59pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Unless you're at the pointy end or looking for a GFA time then why are you disadvantaged?

Many reasons -
The fellas who were a minute behind you are now a minute ahead of you.
Various prizes are handed out at all levels from a local 5k fundraiser to county and national titles at all age grade levels. You can be guaranteed the people taking the spots will be wearing them.

I wouldn't mind if these were used in training as well and offered quicker recovery times etc. Then you could say they were a natural advance.
But these shoes are just targeted at one off races to gain time.

If everyone ends up buying them at 300 a pop who ends up being the winner?

It is just disappointing there wasn't more of a push against them but if you want Nike and Co. to sponsor your events I guess this is the trade off.

You see it at the top level with Russian doping let offs and potential sponsorship for the governing bodies.

SnappyDresser · 02-10-2020 9:50pm

This talk of the latest superdoper trainers/racing should got me thinking about Emil Zatopek who ran workouts in his army boots in the forests in deep snow; ran in sand; ran while carrying others on his back. He reckoned that if he ran with heavy boots that when it came to race day and he wore significantly lighter footwear he had an advantage... and he cleaned up at the Olympics

Limpy · 03-10-2020 5:00pm

Anybody can buy them. Nike have designed a great product. They marketed it to perfection with an athlete who would beat the rest without the shoes anyway. I said it last year the Vaporfly/Next% will be more important to a runner then his GPS on race day. Game changer by Nike, for which they deserve credit for developing a superior product.

MY BAD · 04-10-2020 1:03am

I've noticed a lot of athletes are choosing the vaporfly over the Alphafly for the London marathon. The Alphafly isn't for everyone

Marty Bird · 04-10-2020 5:18pm

MY BAD wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of athletes are choosing the vaporfly over the Alphafly for the London marathon. The Alphafly isn't for everyone

I wonder would that be down to the route and expected conditions ? I have read some reviews the Alphas are not the best on corners. I haven’t ran in the Alphas yet but had a run today in the Vapours what a shoe.

Limpy · 04-10-2020 5:56pm

When Hoka had been doing big stacks for age's nobody had a problem. Nike got a better lightweight foam and put a plate on top. Genius development.

What amazes me is how others, Hoka included never saw it coming. And when it was out there in 2017? Nobody tried to emulate it until recently when they had a choice A. Forget about shoes as Nike have a great shoe or B design a similar shoe.

Desi linden wore a prototype Brook's when she won Boston.

The shoe is here to stay. Comply or cry.

Marty Bird · 04-10-2020 6:51pm

Limpy wrote: »

When Hoka had been doing big stacks for age's nobody had a problem. Nike got a better lightweight foam and put a plate on top. Genius development.

What amazes me is how others, Hoka included never saw it coming. And when it was out there in 2017? Nobody tried to emulate it until recently when they had a choice A. Forget about shoes as Nike have a great shoe or B design a similar shoe.

Desi linden wore a prototype Brook's when she won Boston.

The shoe is here to stay. Comply or cry.

Seen someone out with the Carbon X some stack height on them in the flesh.

Ceepo · 04-10-2020 9:19pm

Kipchoges performance today shows that runners, even alpha flys, are only one part of what makes someone run fast times.

OOnegative · 04-10-2020 10:05pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Kipchoges performance today shows that runners, even alpha flys, are only one part of what makes someone run fast times.

Ah that’s completely unfair, we all know how hard it is to run with a blocked ear!!

Did he really give a to$$ today, it wasn’t a real marathon regardless how much the London crew tried to sell it, probably main reason Bekele pulled out.

TFBubendorfer · 05-10-2020 9:59am

OOnegative wrote: »

Ah that’s completely unfair, we all know how hard it is to run with a blocked ear!!

Did he really give a to$$ today, it wasn’t a real marathon regardless how much the London crew tried to sell it, probably main reason Bekele pulled out.

Talk about unfair!

He was limping in the finishing area. He clearly was having issues.
Most elite marathon runners last 2 years at the top before they start to falter. He has reigned supreme for 7 years. And you claim he didn't give a toss!

OOnegative · 05-10-2020 10:02am

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Talk about unfair!

He was limping in the finishing area. He clearly was having issues.
Most elite marathon runners last 2 years at the top before they start to falter. He has reigned supreme for 7 years. And you claim he didn't give a toss!

I was being sarcastic, something that doesn’t really come across on Boards.

ariana` · 05-10-2020 10:09am

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I get that anyone chasing a GFA or at the pointy end of the field has no choice but to wear them. What I can't get my head around is mid pack runners who's only competition is with themselves and their own personal improvement insisting they need to wear them coz everyone else is.

I guess in time, the more they're worn the more the gains will level out.

Maybe because races don't just take place at the pointy end of things? I do a few local races every year where there'd always be the familiar names/faces of people who are thereabouts my standard that I'd use as markers to spur me on, nothing like having a marker to motivate you mid-race or feeling like there's a mark on your back, all friendly of course :P

partyguinness wrote: »

...because the competition with themselves is still a competition albeit with themsleves I guess and their own personal improvement.

But yeah you cannot help but feel a bit of a tit rocking around at 9minutes miling in €250.00 runners.

Unthought Known wrote: »

Unless you used to run at 9:20 per mile and they have helped you achieve your first sub 4.

This exactly. Times are all relative to the individual, one man's sub 3 is another man's sub 4. I still remember the buzz of breaking 30 mins for 5k, it was no less a buzz than breaking 25 or 24 or 23...

I haven't invested in expensive shoes (yet), I'm still fortunately making big gains from training but I certainly won't rule out investing in them at some point. If it's the difference between hanging up my shoes having achieved an aspirational time that is a personal target for me or missing out by mere seconds then I'm not ashamed to admit I'd consider spending the money for those couple of seconds. Just because I'm unlikely to be contesting for the podium doesn't mean I should be embarrassed to wear the latest shoe technology - in my opinion

Next%- the ongoing debate

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