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Bus Éireann to close 5 Expressway Routes

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    #32
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The Clonmel and Kilkenny one was cut a few years ago- no one in govt gave two ****s- told people to use alternatibe services (Irish rail and private services). BE are retreating from Expressway, the private sector operators are taking over the routes.
    It was the smaller towns and villages that suffered most really as the JJ Kavanngh and Dublin Coach services are centred around bigger towns only and motorway services.


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    #33
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Thinking about each of the routes:

    X1 - would be a controversial and perhaps political one. I wonder would Translink continue to operate it? If they didn't then that would cut off Newry from Dublin. I can't see the government allowing that.

    Having said that, Translink seem much more enthusiastic about this service then BE, so might be more likely to continue to operate it.

    X8 - would cut off Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir and Cashel.

    Aircoach use to operate a competing stopping service, so I'd wonder if they would jump at the opportunity of operating that service again or perhaps Gobus.

    x12 - JJ Kavangh already covers this route and Dublin Coach does partly. I could see JJ or DC putting on extra services.

    x20 - As I mentioned already largely covered by Citylink. I could see them increasing departures or GoBus taking the opportunity to introduce a competing service.

    So I'd say the X8 would be the most problematic as no existing alternative, along with Newry on the X1, depending on what Translink are thinking.

    These do feel like the weakest of the Expressway services, the routes most exposed to strong competitors. It perhaps makes sense for BE to focus on PSO services and services with little competition.


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    #34
    chite
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭chite


    bk wrote: »
    Thinking about each of the routes:

    .....

    X8 - would cut off Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir and Cashel

    So I'd say the X8 would be the most problematic as no existing alternative, along with Newry on the X1, depending on what Translink are thinking.

    The 245 BE route would serve the towns, bar Cashel. In saying that it's ok for Fermoy but beyond that the timetable for the rest of the towns is poor.


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    #35
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,403 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Sorry Ive been away for a while and am wondering does this mean no BE buses between Dublin and Limerick etc. or is expressway a direct service and we will still have a slower one?


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    #36
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    Thinking about each of the routes:

    X1 - would be a controversial and perhaps political one. I wonder would Translink continue to operate it? If they didn't then that would cut off Newry from Dublin. I can't see the government allowing that.

    For some time there has been talk of Translink running the X1 on their own and Bus Eireann continuing to market it and allow the service to use it's facilities but according to speculation on another forum, as of yet BE and TL have been unable to reach an agreement on how the revenue will be split on such arrangement since BE wants a bigger silice than TL are willing to sanction.


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    #37
    titan18
    Registered Users Posts: 11,933 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    I'd imagine a significant enough portion of the customers would be people going to the airport. With travel abroad looking in poor demand, can see why they'd be cut.


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    #38
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Morby wrote: »
    Is there any other private company currently doing the Galway to Shannon Airport route?

    The article seems to suggest that the x51 would stop. That would still leave the stopping 51 BE services that serves both Galway and Shannon Airport. Though slower as it is a stopping service.

    Citylink has a non stop Galway to Limerick (and onto Cork) service. It doesn't currently stop at Shannon, but if they can adjust the route license, I could see them adding Shannon.
    devnull wrote: »
    For some time there has been talk of Translink running the X1 on their own and Bus Eireann continuing to market it and allow the service to use it's facilities but according to speculation on another forum, as of yet BE and TL have been unable to reach an agreement on how the revenue will be split on such arrangement since BE wants a bigger silice than TL are willing to sanction.

    Yes, I was thinking of that. To be honest, Translink might just be better off dumping BE and going it alone IMO.

    GoBus didn't seem to benefit from BE at all on their GoBE partnership to Cork. And at least BE offered a bus station at both ends of that route and the Cork one is ok. Busaras is a bit of a dump, I'm not sure Translink would really benefit from operating out of it.

    I suppose brand recognition, BE obviously would be much better known then Ulsterbus down here. But I'm not sure such brand recognition is worth as much as some of the CIE companies think it does. If anything it can be a bit of a downside.


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    #39
    Sebastian Dangerfield
    Registered Users Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Sebastian Dangerfield


    I wonder if people are legitimately travelling these routes less, or just not via Bus Eireann? As an occasional bus user, Id avoid BE if at all possible, and use any other company running the route.

    I had a pretty bad experience with trying to put my nephew on the bus back in June. Despite having a ticket and being first at the station, he wasnt initially allowed on the bus. Social distancing was non existent, as everyone had to push and fight to get on the bus. I wrote an email to Eamon Ryan, clearly stating that I was not asking for feedback about that specific example but to point out that if his partys strategic aim to reduce reliance on cars is to be met, the national bus and rail companies needed to ensure that basics like online reservations and seat bookings worked, and he as Minister for Transport was perfectly placed to drive that. As expected, I got a response from someone junior inviting me to raise any service concerns directly to Bus Eireann. Pi$s up and brewery come to mind.


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    #40
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, I was thinking of that. To be honest, Translink might just be better off dumping BE and going it alone IMO.

    I would imagine that BE are trying to keep a toe or two in the door on that route, hence why they apparently made that offer to Translink. But they have to take a cut that is low enough that it makes the offer attractive considering Translink are going to be laden with the actual costs of running the service.

    Translink may well think that the marketing support that BE could provide will not be worth the cut that BE would take. If that is the case, you'd imagine that you will see Translink essentially wait for BE to formally pull the plug and then go it alone since TL wouldn't need a deal as much as BE would.


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    #41
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I didn't see this earlier, I think it has now been added to the RTE article:
    Staff have been told that the company expects to accumulate losses of up to €30 million over the next three years.


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    #42
    chite
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭chite


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Improvements to city services should be welcomed. There's no demand for InterCity routes at present so why waste scant resources on them when Galway, Limerick and Cork will see improvements.

    So it's grand to further marginalise those in rural towns that are reliant on the inter city buses. The non-intercity services are less reliable, with some stops omitted at a certain time of day, or not available on some days that the intercity bus would've covered for.
    This will also mean that more people will have to use the rural bus, making social distancing more difficult.

    But it's grand cos it'll improve city services that were for the most part already fine compared to rural transport :rolleyes:


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    #43
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Its seems one way or another we've played this one right into the hands of the private operators. It was always a matter of time before this would happen. Allowing private operators to run nonstop services was always going to be a costly exercise.


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    #44
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Its seems one way or another we've played this one right into the hands of the private operators. It was always a matter of time before this would happen. Allowing private operators to run nonstop services was always going to be a costly exercise.

    I think it’s just the market dictating really. Most people really not bothered what livery the bus has- all we really care about is value, frequency and reliability.
    BE being as a very unionised state company simply can’t compete with the private’s on costs. Apart from simply being another time option I struggle to see what BE offer- they more likely serve small rural towns off the motorway which actually is a disadvantage for the majority (it slows down the service)- if using a bus I’ll always try make sure it’s a motorway direct service. The PSO will have to ensure these places still see a service but the motorways have greatly changed things


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    #45
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    road_high wrote: »
    I think it’s just the market dictating really. Most people really not bothered what livery the bus has- all we really care about is value, frequency and reliability.
    BE being as a very unionised state company simply can’t compete with the private’s on costs. Apart from simply being another time option I struggle to see what BE offer- they more likely serve small rural towns off the motorway which actually is a disadvantage for the majority (it slows down the service)- if using a bus I’ll always try make sure it’s a motorway direct service. The PSO will have to ensure these places still see a service but the motorways have greatly changed things

    I don't disagree with you about people not caring as too who is running the service but ironically BE will be heavily criticised as a state company once peoples journeys are effected. At the end of day we will be funding the replacements and there is no guarantee any of the private operators are going to fill the gap in capacity and timetables either, which will likely jeopardize the value, reliability and frequency matters. Less competition and capacity = price rises really. As we've also seen with covid the private operators don't hang around to act as a "service to the community".


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    #46
    cson
    Registered Users Posts: 14,406 ✭✭✭✭cson


    I mean dropping Shannon makes sense as there aren't any flights going there at the moment.


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    #47
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,474 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Its seems one way or another we've played this one right into the hands of the private operators. It was always a matter of time before this would happen. Allowing private operators to run nonstop services was always going to be a costly exercise.

    How is this a costly mistake?!

    As I detailed above, most of these routes already have other companies serving them, so they won't need much in the way of any extra PSO subsidy or services to serve them.

    The only one that doesn't have service is some of the towns on the X8. And frankly if I was the NTA I'd just offer a license to Aircoach/Gobus or any other company who might want the route. I suspect it is a busy enough route that some one will be willing to make a go at it, even without PSO money.

    The private operators increased capacity on our intercity routes 5 to 6 fold and did it at zero cost to the taxpayer. It has been a major win both for the taxpayer and the users of these services.


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    #48
    salonfire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    IE 222 wrote: »
    As we've also seen with covid the private operators don't hang around to act as a "service to the community".

    As we've seen with Bus Eireann strikes, they don't hang around to act as a "service to the community" when time comes to try line their own pockets with unjustifiable pay claims.


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    #49
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    salonfire wrote: »
    As we've seen with Bus Eireann strikes, they don't hang around to act as a "service to the community" when time comes to try line their own pockets with unjustifiable pay claims.




    nobody goes on strike for unjustifiable pay claims as that would be pointless as the claims would and could never be met.
    the last strike at bus eireann was what, 4 years ago now? so hardly this strike happy company that you seem to believe they are.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #50
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭john boye


    IE 222 wrote: »
    As we've also seen with covid the private operators don't hang around to act as a "service to the community".

    I don't want to go down an endless private v public rabbit hole but; The privateers got out as soon as covid hit and the fares dried up. BE kept their show on the road on a reduced schedule through emergency funding. Now the funding is stopping and BE are getting out too. So what's the difference?


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    #51
    jetfiremuck
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭jetfiremuck


    Look Expressway inter city had the whole thing to themselves for years. They did shag all when it was opened up to private operators even attempting to compete. FFs how long did it take to put a jax in them ffs


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    #52
    jetfiremuck
    Registered Users Posts: 3,466 ✭✭✭jetfiremuck


    And on top of that they could have used smaller buses as needed. Made no sense 4 people on a 50 seater for 90 kms


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    #53
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    soundman45 wrote: »
    BE pay a composite rate, ie no Sunday premiums, flat hourly rate regardless of day, totally different structure to Dublin Bus.
    BE also have an extremely high rate of staff turnover of drivers and is certainly not the dream job many think it to be.

    Perhaps this explains why so many BE bus drivers could do with a refresher course in customer services. Many are unbelievably ignorant and buses are in a poor state. I was told they were incredibly well remunerated and often wondered why they seemed so grumpy. I compare this with UK operator National Express where drivers very helpful and actually help you with luggage and fares cheaper.

    The unions should be got rid of.

    I could never understand why CIE group didnt adopt Ryanair pricing model and sell cheap seats at off peak times to fill buses and trains and increase revenue. Also the BE website is difficult to navigate. I think the CIE group of companies are poorly managed and have been in financial difficulties for a very long time.


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    #54
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    Perhaps this explains why so many BE bus drivers could do with a refresher course in customer services. Many are unbelievably ignorant and buses are in a poor state. I was told they were incredibly well remunerated and often wondered why they seemed so grumpy. I compare this with UK operator National Express where drivers very helpful and actually help you with luggage and fares cheaper.

    I could never understand why CIE group didnt adopt Ryanair pricing model and sell cheap seats at off peak times to fill buses.

    Bad apples exist in every company public or private I've experienced rude drivers on private operators as well as public operators. Buses being in a poor state is the company's fault not the drivers and yes I agree that's unacceptable if it's true.

    The drivers job is to drive the bus not help passengers with luggage if BE want to drivers help people with luggage then they should compensate drivers for it as it is an extra responsibility.


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    #55
    GT89
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    The unions should be got rid of.

    What sort of nonsense is that. Workers have a constitutional right to join a union. It is impossible to get rid of unions.


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    #56
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    GT89 wrote: »
    Bad apples exist in every company public or private I've experienced rude drivers on private operators as well as public operators. Buses being in a poor state is the company's fault not the drivers and yes I agree that's unacceptable if it's true.

    The drivers job is to drive the bus not help passengers with luggage if BE want to drivers help people with luggage then they should compensate drivers for it as it is an extra responsibility.

    I have seen multiple examples of poor customer service from BE drivers both Exprssway and City services. There is a problem. It would not be acceptable in many private operators. It seems BE is so highly unionised and I am assuming it's a far more secure job with BE than with a private operator.

    Is it true BE drivers are highly remunerated?


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    #57
    PommieBast
    Registered Users Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    jetfiremuck wrote: »
    Look Expressway inter city had the whole thing to themselves for years. They did shag all when it was opened up to private operators even attempting to compete. FFs how long did it take to put a jax in them ffs
    Story I heard is that before the private operators came alone, they pushed the line that no-one wanted to travel intercity after 6pm.


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    #58
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    GT89 wrote: »
    What sort of nonsense is that. Workers have a constitutional right to join a union. It is impossible to get rid of unions.


    The likes of Michael O Leary should run the CIE group and refuse to engage with unions. Look at the dire financial state of the group which pre-dates covid. It may have to close entirely if its precarious financial position continues.


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    #59
    StreetLight
    Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    Yyhhuuu wrote: »
    The likes of Michael O Leary should run the CIE group and refuse to engage with unions.

    Why would he do that, when he is engaged with the unions in the airline industry?


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    #60
    Yyhhuuu
    Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Yyhhuuu


    StreetLight wrote: »
    Why would he do that, when he is engaged with the unions in the airline industry?

    He should do a Thatcher on it and refuse to engage.


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    #61
    john boye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,493 ✭✭✭john boye


    When people start saying Michael O'Leary should run xyz I just stop listening.


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