Bus Éireann to close 5 Expressway Routes

road_high

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

They seem to have a fleet of new buses purchased. Why do this if exiting? Do you think the politicians will allow them exit when their voters protest?

Well they’re cutting a load of routes, have done already. Not a peep out of politicians. At best they’ll read some generic NTA press release telling you to use an alternative service. And that will be that

IE 222

road_high wrote: »

Well they’re cutting a load of routes, have done already. Not a peep out of politicians. At best they’ll read some generic NTA press release telling you to use an alternative service. And that will be that

Some where raising it in the dail yesterday. Think it was Matty McGrath. Eamonn Ryan wasn't exactly saying or ruling he can't do anything due to commercial interests.

road_high

IE 222 wrote: »

Some where raising it in the dail yesterday. Think it was Matty McGrath. Eamonn Ryan wasn't exactly saying or ruling he can't do anything due to commercial interests.

Matty was the same when the Clonmel X route was jettisoned. Now that’s history. I’ve never seen these decisions reversed despite local objections- a limited NTA service may be put in as compensation for bypassed towns or be told to use an alternative private service

IE 222

road_high wrote: »

Matty was the same when the Clonmel X route was jettisoned. Now that’s history. I’ve never seen these decisions reversed despite local objections- a limited NTA service may be put in as compensation for bypassed towns or be told to use an alternative private service

Big difference between Clonmel and what's been axed now.

road_high

IE 222 wrote: »

Big difference between Clonmel and what's been axed now.

Not really it was a pretty busy frequent route. Had been relaunched as a part motorway service. Still could not make money

dublinman1990

The Expressway express routes being scrapped by Bus Eireann would have been a huge profit maker if they had a terminus or a major bus stop provided at Dublin Airport if Covid wasn't with us. The level of demand at that point would have left them with a continuous business model that was very sustainable. The 2 terminals since then have lost a huge majority of air passengers coming into the country up to now since Covid came here in March.

A huge amount of customers who were using these services at Dublin Airport and other stops at busy locations on these routes before Covid now can't do it any longer because of the pandemic and that is a huge shame to hear that is happening right now. Some of the routes which are now getting scrapped because of Covid were showing good signs of life that would made it continue running services well into the long term. The fleet has undergone a huge transformation in improving the quality of it's coaches even though it's not as good when compared to running other airport coach routes by companies based in the private sector.

The Expressway routes that begin their journeys at Busaras may see some increased demand later on after Covid subsides. But if there is a further delay because of Covid in having a predicted increased demand of passengers heading over to use other bus services from private operators when it subsides; where does that leave the other express/non-express Expressway routes in future? Will it become high & dry or does it have a future?

Bus Eireann may find themselves in an increasingly difficult financial position after Covid if they are finding it difficult to fund & to provide new incentives for improving Expressway services to make passengers return to using their bus services. Adding new things to improve the experience for passengers while trying to entice them going off other private operators may cost them a lot of money in the end. If it's not worth it. They may keep plodding along as normal to keep running until they hit another stumbling block which may put the hard brakes on their services in the future. The resumption of international travel returning soon for international airlines is also a big uncertainty as we are still going through this pandemic. Bus Eireann having to lose huge amounts of income through paying for fuel costs, staff & mechanical parts required for fixing maintaining buses while little or no customers are using their services would also become a very unsustainable business model for the future longer term strategy of the business.

We should be able to know that there are 2 strands of funding coming in to fund all of Bus Eireann's expenditure of running bus routes all around the country. One is infinitely supported by the government through a public subsidy & the other, Expressway, being an entirely commercial service, doesn't have the luxury of that funding being given to them because under EU Law it doesn't officially qualify for government support. If Expressway doesn't last into 2021 or beyond that; the government would have step in & provide more PSO funding to provide replacement bus services in any part of the country due if BÉ decide to shut down Expressway in Ireland for good. It will become a very serious problem for us if it happens very soon. It would mean that, in a post Covid Irish economy, the government will have to provide more funding to support all transport operators running PSO services around the Republic of Ireland including private bus operators that win/have won contracts in the past to run officially tendered bus services by the NTA if they are still legally obligated to run them at the moment.

On the other hand; if you were to look at BÉ PSO routes being run at the moment & into the future; they are running infrastructure that give you a very basic service in how it operates services to the public. But that infrastructure has slowly improved itself all the time. PSO bus routes run by BÉ would see this as an upgrade because they have a young fleet that has a much newer spec which it still has a lot of life left in it to run PSO bus services for the majority of people who live here. They are in a pretty good position to not be as bad when compared to bus services from the private sector that runs a high standard fleet while BÉ treat them as their competition. The standards of BÉ's PSO fleet will be much better if their Expressway coaches switch over to run PSO routes for the rest of their lives to continue running the services.

But the big challenge to overcome that problem is how we will use the service in the long term while BÉ battle to remain open against other competition. It becomes a question of how BÉ do not want to overheat their balance sheet while still continuing to run a business model that solely relies on passengers going onto a long distance bus service that operates around the country while doing that job without government support.

What type of scenario could we see after Covid if BÉ has to run services while running with reduced income to support it's business model?

Charles Babbage

Charles Babbage wrote: »

having a rush to the bottom is not necessarily in the public interest either. Do these private operators have a pension scheme, for instance?

There should be a NTA pension scheme (and perhaps sick pay scheme) into which all employees should be enrolled.

Yes. It's called Employer PRSI and is not an inconsiderable amount per employee.

goingnowhere

salonfire wrote: »

Yes. It's called Employer PRSI and is not an inconsiderable amount per employee.

All companies must offer access to a private pension scheme, either a PRSA or a bespoke scheme approved by the pension regulator.

Bumblebee2020

I would have thought Express Way would have been sold off before this point, when hearing National Express was coming into the Irish market I thought they would of made an offer to BE for Express Way.
Express Way would be a good earner for a private company that isn’t paying mad wages. Interesting to see what’s going on behind closed doors if anything is happening. I’d say there’s a few of the private companies looking at the route licences to get them

L1011

Bumblebee2020 wrote: »

I would have thought Express Way would have been sold off before this point, when hearing National Express was coming into the Irish market I thought they would of made an offer to BE for Express Way.
Express Way would be a good earner for a private company that isn’t paying mad wages. Interesting to see what’s going on behind closed doors if anything is happening. I’d say there’s a few of the private companies looking at the route licences to get them

Anyone buying Expressway would be inheriting the terms of the existing staff, including likely a share of mechanics and admin. They'll be able to save some on backoffice but not drivers

PommieBast

Bumblebee2020 wrote: »

I would have thought Express Way would have been sold off before this point, when hearing National Express was coming into the Irish market I thought they would of made an offer to BE for Express Way.

If Expressway has anything like a typical public-sector pension scheme attached to it, no sane private sector company would touch it with a barge-pole.

GT89

L1011 wrote: »

Anyone buying Expressway would be inheriting the terms of the existing staff, including likely a share of mechanics and admin. They'll be able to save some on backoffice but not drivers

Possibly but BE could redeploy the marked in (or whatever the BE equivalent is) on the expressway routes to their PSO services just like what Dublin Bus did when routes transferred to Go-Ahead.

Bumblebee2020

My understanding is and why it’s so expensive the drivers would all be on BE payroll and as Expressway would be a commercial company it would be Sub contracting the drivers and teams off BE all you would be buying would be the brand name and routes, it works the same way for DB and it’s commercial Airlink, Tours everything is Sub contracted back out hence why they don’t make money.

Airlink is gone now until Mid 2021 at the early it’s The drivers all went back to the normal routes as they are DB staff not Airlink staff.

Bumblebee2020

PommieBast wrote: »

If Expressway has anything like a typical public-sector pension scheme attached to it, no sane private sector company would touch it with a barge-pole.

All a company like National Express or interested buyers would be doing is looking at brand and route licence.

All staff would be on BE payroll not Expressway, plenty of transport companies have been sold just brand and route licence.

PommieBast

Bumblebee2020 wrote: »

All a company like National Express or interested buyers would be doing is looking at brand and route licence.

All staff would be on BE payroll not Expressway, plenty of transport companies have been sold just brand and route licence.

Is such a thing on the table though? Devil in the detail here...

Bumblebee2020

PommieBast wrote: »

Is such a thing on the table though? Devil in the detail here...

That’s why I’m surprised that other companies have not come in to offer this Regardless if it’s not on the table, It’s no secret that BE where always going to get rid or sell the company, everything is for sale at the correct price especially in the transport game.

Expressway has leaked money for years and I’m sure if BE got an offer they would jump at it To off load.

Bumblebee2020

PommieBast wrote: »

Is such a thing on the table though? Devil in the detail here...

That’s why I’m surprised that other companies have not come in to offer this Regardless if it’s not on the table, It’s no secret that BE where always going to get rid or sell the company, everything is for sale at the correct price especially in the transport game.

Expressway has leaked money for years and I’m sure if BE got an offer they would jump at it To off load.

bk

I'd guess there are a couple of issues at play.

BE don't seem to want to get rid of the whole of Expressway, they are holding onto most of the Expressway routes, it is just 5 routes they want to get rid of. If BE wanted to sell off the entire Expressway operation then there would likely be of more interest, but just these 5 routes are probably the least money making and thus less interest.

And keep in mind, anyone can set up their own Belfast route, no need for a restrictive route license, and Ulsterbus will likely continue operating it, so really it is just 4 routes on the table.

Also I don't think there is that much value in the Expressway brand, GoBus made that mistake with GoBE and as a result I think many have learned a lesson and would be slow to take on a BE brand or have any involvement with BE in terms of using bus stations, etc.

There was an article with the CEO of Aircoach in one of the newspapers a few weeks ago and she said they compete with Expressway on two routes and would thus have a good idea of their numbers of passengers on those routes and she said they weren't surprised that these routes were being shut. This gave me the impression that these routes were relatively poor performing.

The Aircoach CEO did say that they expected other operators to fail too and that they were looking at this as an opportunity to do deals and to expand their operations here. So it is possible, they or another company could do a deal with BE.

Another issue is a lot of the companies are simply struggling to survive at the moment and might not have the money to do a deal with or invest in Expressway. Though I'd guess that the big international backed operators, Aircoach/NX/Citylink might have the finance to expand and are just waiting for the right time and deals.

L1011

GT89 wrote: »

Possibly but BE could redeploy the marked in (or whatever the BE equivalent is) on the expressway routes to their PSO services just like what Dublin Bus did when routes transferred to Go-Ahead.

It would require a massive extension of PSO services (at the states cost) to need the entire set of drivers, which outside of anything required for the various regional city BusConnects, isn't going to happen.

It wouldn't just be the marked-in drivers (if they have that anachronism, but I expect they do); there would be an excess of 'spares' too

belfast stephen

Notice from bus Eireann

Bumblebee2020

Fair play to Translink jumping in renting the X1 licence off BE still, there maybe more companies renting the other licences after Christmas, I can’t see them licences sitting there because if Express way was run like a private company it would of made money. Them routes are money makers (before covid times).

devnull

Bumblebee2020 wrote: »

Fair play to Translink jumping in renting the X1 licence off BE still, there maybe more companies renting the other licences after Christmas, I can’t see them licences sitting there because if Express way was run like a private company it would of made money. Them routes are money makers (before covid times).

There's no such thing as a license for a cross border route since they are run under EU laws so inter state services apply rather than the domestic laws of Northern Ireland / Ireland.

The X1 was always a service jointly operated between Bus Eireann and Translink, the only difference is now that Translink will be providing all the departures on the route and that you will need to buy tickets from them.

bk

Yes as devnull said above, no route licenses needed for cross border routes, so Translink could operate this completely independently if they wanted and no need to pay BE anything.

Having said that, they don't mention any change in using Busaras in Dublin, so I'd assume Translink will be making some payment to BE for it's use.

Though the relationship seems to be much less then the old GoBE setup, with BE not even selling tickets for the service, so looks to be a relatively minimum relationship.

I hope Bus Eireann management and staff are asking themselves why another company seems to be capable of running a bus route they are not able to run.

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

I hope Bus Eireann management and staff are asking themselves why another company seems to be capable of running a bus route they are not able to run.

why would they.

route cuts are a management decision, the staff just get on with their jobs
and will be redeployed to other routes.

bk

salonfire wrote: »

I hope Bus Eireann management and staff are asking themselves why another company seems to be capable of running a bus route they are not able to run.

I could be mistaken, but from what I've read, I believe the majority of departures on this route were operated by Translink coaches and drivers for the past few years. It seemed to have been more of a Translink operation then a BE one.

Add to that lot of competition on the route from Aircoach, Dublin Coach and others and it probably makes more sense for them to focus on the ever growing PSO operations.

salonfire

salonfire wrote: »

I hope Bus Eireann management and staff are asking themselves why another company seems to be capable of running a bus route they are not able to run.

Nothing seems to have changed in regard to BE for years and that includes the staff!

It needs new blood and new ideas to take this company forward!

Jamie2k9

Dublin-Cork
* X8 will no longer serve Dublin Airport and operate x4 daily services from 30 Jan.

https://www.buseireann.ie/service_updates.php?id=4520&month=Jan

Dublin-Galway
* X20 (x2 daily ex DUB, x3 ex GWY) and 20 (x4 daily) service from 30 Jan.

https://www.buseireann.ie/service_updates.php?id=4520&month=Jan

Dublin-Limerick
* X12 - Last service 29 Jan.

https://www.buseireann.ie/service_updates.php?id=4517&month=Jan

GT89

Maybe slightly off topic but I saw a picture of a VB on the x8 today. I didn't think they were allowed put NTA owned vehicles on commercial routes.