Bus Éireann to close 5 Expressway Routes

Jamie2k9 · 28-09-2020 2:47pm #1

Irish Times reports several routes to be axed:

* Dublin-Belfast
* Dublin-Cork
* Dublin-Galway
* Dublin-Limerick
* Galway-Shannon-Limerick (express)

However, it is understood the company does not plan any job losses as a a result of the route closures.
Instead, it is understood Bus Éireann is planning an expansion of its operations in Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford, where it offers city services.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-%C3%A9ireann-to-shut-many-inter-city-routes-due-to-financial-pressures-1.4366478

banie01 · 28-09-2020 2:50pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Irish Times reports several routes to be axed:

* Dublin-Belfast
* Dublin-Cork
* Dublin-Galway
* Dublin-Limerick
* Galway-Shannon-Limerick (express)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-%C3%A9ireann-to-shut-many-inter-city-routes-due-to-financial-pressures-1.4366478

Killing intercity service to presumably improve commuter services and rural access to the main cities?

I can't fathom the reasoning behind mixing intercity services tho?

Geuze · 28-09-2020 2:53pm

Is this due to COVID?

Or due to competition from other operators?

timmyntc · 28-09-2020 3:02pm

Geuze wrote: »

Is this due to COVID?

Or due to competition from other operators?

Article states it's due to financial pressure from COVID restrictions.
Not surprised.

LuasSimon · 28-09-2020 3:47pm

It’s fairly sad when the national bus carrier is cancelling routes between the big cities. The private operators all paying drivers minimum wage . We will be a nation of minimum wage employees soon . Everyone will need the government to provide housing for them as they’ll have no money to buy their own houses .

munchkin_utd · 28-09-2020 3:55pm

Mr.S wrote: »

With the amount of private operators, I’m surprised they are the first to stop.

How can they compete when their express takes 3h40 from galway to Dublin airport (as they have to go the old road between Athlone and galway) and the private bus is just 2h 30min

This must have been coming a while

dublinman1990 · 28-09-2020 4:25pm

Oh no. The Dublin-Galway routes appear to be the biggest hits from this closure as they lose the 20/X20. That's bad news for people living on that route if they have to use limited options later on Gobus, Citylink & IÉ to get into Dublin as an alternative with no other options of privately run bus services are set up for their areas. Citylink & Gobus in Galway will be the only private bus services that operates a service to Dublin if the Expressway routes get shut.

Do the 20/X20 serve areas of the country where there is no other bus service available to serve people in their locality?

Xterminator · 28-09-2020 4:27pm

The expressway routes are not covered by subvention, they are commercial routes that either pay for themselves or they dont.

devnull · 28-09-2020 4:36pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s fairly sad when the national bus carrier is cancelling routes between the big cities. The private operators all paying drivers minimum wage . We will be a nation of minimum wage employees soon . Everyone will need the government to provide housing for them as they’ll have no money to buy their own houses .

That's complete rubbish. All of the privates are certainly not paying minimum wage. I am sure there might be some but the likes of GoAhead, CityLink and Aircoach certainly are not.

bk · 28-09-2020 4:37pm

timmyntc wrote: »

Article states it's due to financial pressure from COVID restrictions.
Not surprised.

According to the RTE article, it sounds to be more then just Covid:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0928/1168001-bus-eireann-expressway/

The services between the capital and Galway, Limerick and Cork will end when the emergency supports for the routes expire which is expected to happen early next year.

It would seem strange to me that they are shutting down the routes when you'd assume things should be returning to normal.

The truth of the matter is that Expressway services have been struggling for years and have been haemorrhaging money for years. These routes simply aren't competitive to the other services operating these routes.

I suspect they are just using Covid as cover for making cuts that were likely to happen anyway eventually.

I'm very glad to hear that all staff will be retained and hopefully expanding PSO services.

devnull · 28-09-2020 4:42pm

Reading between the lines, this is political posturing from Bus Eireann and I would not expect that the routes would be closed down fully at all and merely they are just trying to force a support line to be provided.

They key bit of the article is

It said no dates had been determined as yet as to when the services earmarked for closure would stop operating but that “changes are likely early next year when the current commercial bus operator emergency supports to the Cork, Limerick and Galway routes expire.

This is directly aimed at the government and the NTA to provide ongoing support for these services, either through their current guises, or by replacing services through the small towns and villages with PSO connecting routes, like happened when they ommitted stoos from the X8 route a few years ago..

It's a clever move by Bus Eireann.

soundman45 · 28-09-2020 4:44pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s fairly sad when the national bus carrier is cancelling routes between the big cities. The private operators all paying drivers minimum wage . We will be a nation of minimum wage employees soon . Everyone will need the government to provide housing for them as they’ll have no money to buy their own houses .

Simply not true, Some private companies pay extremely well, also Bus Eireann pay for hours driven so a 12hr day might only pay 8hrs wages.

GT89 · 28-09-2020 4:49pm

devnull wrote: »

That's complete rubbish. All of the privates are certainly not paying minimum wage. I am sure there might be some but the likes of GoAhead, CityLink and Aircoach certainly are not.

But none of them pay as well as state owned operators

soundman45 · 28-09-2020 4:50pm

GT89 wrote: »

But none of them pay as well as state owned operators

One of them does.

BonnieSituation · 28-09-2020 4:52pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s fairly sad when the national bus carrier is cancelling routes between the big cities. The private operators all paying drivers minimum wage . We will be a nation of minimum wage employees soon . Everyone will need the government to provide housing for them as they’ll have no money to buy their own houses .

You did well to extrapolate all of that from this announcement.

Improvements to city services should be welcomed. There's no demand for InterCity routes at present so why waste scant resources on them when Galway, Limerick and Cork will see improvements.

GT89 · 28-09-2020 4:52pm

bk wrote: »

According to the RTE article, it sounds to be more then just Covid:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0928/1168001-bus-eireann-expressway/

Yep but for many businesses that were struggling anyway covid has been the final nail in the coffin. Debenhams for example had been struggling for some time but covid finished it off.

bk · 28-09-2020 4:54pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Do the 20/X20 serve areas of the country where there is no other bus service available to serve people in their locality?

The Citylink Stopping services looks to cover almost all the same stops as the 20.

Both the Citylink and 20 have 5 departures a day, so similar enough. Though different departure times, so effectively a cutting in half of services on this route. Though perhaps Citylink will add extra services now, if the demand is there.

GT89 · 28-09-2020 4:55pm

soundman45 wrote: »

One of them does.

Which one? It's not only basic pay there's other benefits too mind you with CIE companies like pensions, sick pay, overtime rates and sunday premium, free GP etc.

GT89 · 28-09-2020 4:57pm

Xterminator wrote: »

The expressway routes are not covered by subvention, they are commercial routes that either pay for themselves or they dont.

Yeah but many of them should be as there is no alternative service particularly the ones not serving Dublin

soundman45 · 28-09-2020 4:57pm

GT89 wrote: »

Which one? It's not only basic pay there's other benefits too mind you with CIE companies like pensions, sick pay, overtime rates and sunday premium, free GP etc.

BE pay a composite rate, ie no Sunday premiums, flat hourly rate regardless of day, totally different structure to Dublin Bus.
BE also have an extremely high rate of staff turnover of drivers and is certainly not the dream job many think it to be.

bk · 28-09-2020 5:02pm

GT89 wrote: »

Yep but for many businesses that were struggling anyway covid has been the final nail in the coffin. Debenhams for example had been struggling for some time but covid finished it off.

Oh definitely, a major shock like this can certainly put struggling business over the edge.

devnull · 28-09-2020 5:07pm

GT89 wrote: »

Yeah but many of them should be as there is no alternative service particularly the ones not serving Dublin

Probably because there is no need and not enough demand to justify alternatives.

If any of these routes close down, which I am extremely sceptical about, they're certainly going to see new PSO routes implemented for the smaller towns left Unserved.

john boye · 28-09-2020 5:09pm

Isn't there an order of New coaches on the way for Expressway?

soundman45 · 28-09-2020 5:11pm

john boye wrote: »

Isn't there an order of New coaches on the way for Expressway?

I'd agree with Devnull, its nothing more than politics at play between BE and the NTA.

bocaman · 28-09-2020 5:16pm

Not surprised by this to be honest.

andrewfaulk · 28-09-2020 5:19pm

soundman45 wrote: »

I'd agree with Devnull, its nothing more than politics at play between BE and the NTA.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out, as I would imagine the NTA will be squeezed for funds over the next few years and that no funds for Intercity/Expressway routes will be forthcoming.. Maybe BE know this and they are willing to offer up their Expressway routes as a sacrificial lamb in return for more city services(maybe the Go ahead/ non-BE operators being pegged back?)

The article reads as though BE and the unions want to push the NTA to provide further subsidies for City services(which can and do receive PSOs), so that staff can be retained/re-deployed..

GT89 · 28-09-2020 5:26pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how this plays out, as I would imagine the NTA will be squeezed for funds over the next few years and that no funds for Intercity/Expressway routes will be forthcoming.. Maybe BE know this and they are willing to offer up their Expressway routes as a sacrificial lamb in return for more city services(maybe the Go ahead/ non-BE operators being pegged back?)

The article reads as though BE and the unions want to push the NTA to provide further subsidies for City services(which can and do receive PSOs), so that staff can be retained/re-deployed..

What about Broadstone based routes will they be expanding their Dublin commuter routes or could some drivers be transferred to DB for their expanded operations.

Morby · 28-09-2020 5:28pm

Is there any other private company currently doing the Galway to Shannon Airport route?

andrewfaulk · 28-09-2020 5:29pm

GT89 wrote: »

What about Broadstone based routes will they be expanding their Dublin commuter routes or could some drivers be transferred to DB for their expanded operations.

I wonder if some drives will be moved over to the Meath commuter/NX routes to improve the service.. Might convince the NTA not to take the routes off them in the next tender

Jamie2k9 · 28-09-2020 5:37pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/public-transport-needs-460m-to-keep-running-eamon-ryan-warned-1.4365805

The National Transport Authority (NTA) has given new funding forecasts for transport to the Government, with recent estimates showing that €460 million extra will be needed for the rest of the year, in addition to the approximately €300 million already spent to date.

€760 million in 2020, lets assume 20% fare recovery in 2021 there is still a major funding gap for 2021 so these routes may well be axed. Not sure TDs will be able to save them with such funding demands.

GerardKeating · 28-09-2020 5:40pm

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s fairly sad when the national bus carrier is cancelling routes between the big cities.

RTÉ story specifically states "Non-express services between the two cities are continuing.", so Route 20X going, but not route 20.

road_high · 28-09-2020 5:40pm

The Clonmel and Kilkenny one was cut a few years ago- no one in govt gave two ****s- told people to use alternatibe services (Irish rail and private services). BE are retreating from Expressway, the private sector operators are taking over the routes.
It was the smaller towns and villages that suffered most really as the JJ Kavanngh and Dublin Coach services are centred around bigger towns only and motorway services.

bk · 28-09-2020 5:47pm

Thinking about each of the routes:

X1 - would be a controversial and perhaps political one. I wonder would Translink continue to operate it? If they didn't then that would cut off Newry from Dublin. I can't see the government allowing that.

Having said that, Translink seem much more enthusiastic about this service then BE, so might be more likely to continue to operate it.

X8 - would cut off Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir and Cashel.

Aircoach use to operate a competing stopping service, so I'd wonder if they would jump at the opportunity of operating that service again or perhaps Gobus.

x12 - JJ Kavangh already covers this route and Dublin Coach does partly. I could see JJ or DC putting on extra services.

x20 - As I mentioned already largely covered by Citylink. I could see them increasing departures or GoBus taking the opportunity to introduce a competing service.

So I'd say the X8 would be the most problematic as no existing alternative, along with Newry on the X1, depending on what Translink are thinking.

These do feel like the weakest of the Expressway services, the routes most exposed to strong competitors. It perhaps makes sense for BE to focus on PSO services and services with little competition.

chite · 28-09-2020 6:14pm

bk wrote: »

Thinking about each of the routes:

.....

X8 - would cut off Fermoy, Mitchelstown, Cahir and Cashel

So I'd say the X8 would be the most problematic as no existing alternative, along with Newry on the X1, depending on what Translink are thinking.

The 245 BE route would serve the towns, bar Cashel. In saying that it's ok for Fermoy but beyond that the timetable for the rest of the towns is poor.

breezy1985 · 28-09-2020 6:15pm

Sorry Ive been away for a while and am wondering does this mean no BE buses between Dublin and Limerick etc. or is expressway a direct service and we will still have a slower one?

devnull · 28-09-2020 6:19pm

bk wrote: »

Thinking about each of the routes:

X1 - would be a controversial and perhaps political one. I wonder would Translink continue to operate it? If they didn't then that would cut off Newry from Dublin. I can't see the government allowing that.

For some time there has been talk of Translink running the X1 on their own and Bus Eireann continuing to market it and allow the service to use it's facilities but according to speculation on another forum, as of yet BE and TL have been unable to reach an agreement on how the revenue will be split on such arrangement since BE wants a bigger silice than TL are willing to sanction.

titan18 · 28-09-2020 6:24pm

I'd imagine a significant enough portion of the customers would be people going to the airport. With travel abroad looking in poor demand, can see why they'd be cut.

bk · 28-09-2020 6:40pm

Morby wrote: »

Is there any other private company currently doing the Galway to Shannon Airport route?

The article seems to suggest that the x51 would stop. That would still leave the stopping 51 BE services that serves both Galway and Shannon Airport. Though slower as it is a stopping service.

Citylink has a non stop Galway to Limerick (and onto Cork) service. It doesn't currently stop at Shannon, but if they can adjust the route license, I could see them adding Shannon.

devnull wrote: »

For some time there has been talk of Translink running the X1 on their own and Bus Eireann continuing to market it and allow the service to use it's facilities but according to speculation on another forum, as of yet BE and TL have been unable to reach an agreement on how the revenue will be split on such arrangement since BE wants a bigger silice than TL are willing to sanction.

Yes, I was thinking of that. To be honest, Translink might just be better off dumping BE and going it alone IMO.

GoBus didn't seem to benefit from BE at all on their GoBE partnership to Cork. And at least BE offered a bus station at both ends of that route and the Cork one is ok. Busaras is a bit of a dump, I'm not sure Translink would really benefit from operating out of it.

I suppose brand recognition, BE obviously would be much better known then Ulsterbus down here. But I'm not sure such brand recognition is worth as much as some of the CIE companies think it does. If anything it can be a bit of a downside.

Sebastian Dangerfield · 28-09-2020 6:42pm

I wonder if people are legitimately travelling these routes less, or just not via Bus Eireann? As an occasional bus user, Id avoid BE if at all possible, and use any other company running the route.

I had a pretty bad experience with trying to put my nephew on the bus back in June. Despite having a ticket and being first at the station, he wasnt initially allowed on the bus. Social distancing was non existent, as everyone had to push and fight to get on the bus. I wrote an email to Eamon Ryan, clearly stating that I was not asking for feedback about that specific example but to point out that if his partys strategic aim to reduce reliance on cars is to be met, the national bus and rail companies needed to ensure that basics like online reservations and seat bookings worked, and he as Minister for Transport was perfectly placed to drive that. As expected, I got a response from someone junior inviting me to raise any service concerns directly to Bus Eireann. Pi$s up and brewery come to mind.

devnull · 28-09-2020 6:54pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, I was thinking of that. To be honest, Translink might just be better off dumping BE and going it alone IMO.

I would imagine that BE are trying to keep a toe or two in the door on that route, hence why they apparently made that offer to Translink. But they have to take a cut that is low enough that it makes the offer attractive considering Translink are going to be laden with the actual costs of running the service.

Translink may well think that the marketing support that BE could provide will not be worth the cut that BE would take. If that is the case, you'd imagine that you will see Translink essentially wait for BE to formally pull the plug and then go it alone since TL wouldn't need a deal as much as BE would.

bk · 28-09-2020 7:15pm

I didn't see this earlier, I think it has now been added to the RTE article:

Staff have been told that the company expects to accumulate losses of up to €30 million over the next three years.

chite · 28-09-2020 8:09pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Improvements to city services should be welcomed. There's no demand for InterCity routes at present so why waste scant resources on them when Galway, Limerick and Cork will see improvements.

So it's grand to further marginalise those in rural towns that are reliant on the inter city buses. The non-intercity services are less reliable, with some stops omitted at a certain time of day, or not available on some days that the intercity bus would've covered for.
This will also mean that more people will have to use the rural bus, making social distancing more difficult.

But it's grand cos it'll improve city services that were for the most part already fine compared to rural transport :rolleyes:

IE 222 · 28-09-2020 8:15pm

Its seems one way or another we've played this one right into the hands of the private operators. It was always a matter of time before this would happen. Allowing private operators to run nonstop services was always going to be a costly exercise.

road_high · 28-09-2020 8:27pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Its seems one way or another we've played this one right into the hands of the private operators. It was always a matter of time before this would happen. Allowing private operators to run nonstop services was always going to be a costly exercise.

I think it’s just the market dictating really. Most people really not bothered what livery the bus has- all we really care about is value, frequency and reliability.
BE being as a very unionised state company simply can’t compete with the private’s on costs. Apart from simply being another time option I struggle to see what BE offer- they more likely serve small rural towns off the motorway which actually is a disadvantage for the majority (it slows down the service)- if using a bus I’ll always try make sure it’s a motorway direct service. The PSO will have to ensure these places still see a service but the motorways have greatly changed things

IE 222 · 28-09-2020 9:00pm

road_high wrote: »

I think it’s just the market dictating really. Most people really not bothered what livery the bus has- all we really care about is value, frequency and reliability.
BE being as a very unionised state company simply can’t compete with the private’s on costs. Apart from simply being another time option I struggle to see what BE offer- they more likely serve small rural towns off the motorway which actually is a disadvantage for the majority (it slows down the service)- if using a bus I’ll always try make sure it’s a motorway direct service. The PSO will have to ensure these places still see a service but the motorways have greatly changed things

I don't disagree with you about people not caring as too who is running the service but ironically BE will be heavily criticised as a state company once peoples journeys are effected. At the end of day we will be funding the replacements and there is no guarantee any of the private operators are going to fill the gap in capacity and timetables either, which will likely jeopardize the value, reliability and frequency matters. Less competition and capacity = price rises really. As we've also seen with covid the private operators don't hang around to act as a "service to the community".

cson · 28-09-2020 9:33pm

I mean dropping Shannon makes sense as there aren't any flights going there at the moment.

bk · 28-09-2020 9:34pm

IE 222 wrote: »

Its seems one way or another we've played this one right into the hands of the private operators. It was always a matter of time before this would happen. Allowing private operators to run nonstop services was always going to be a costly exercise.

How is this a costly mistake?!

As I detailed above, most of these routes already have other companies serving them, so they won't need much in the way of any extra PSO subsidy or services to serve them.

The only one that doesn't have service is some of the towns on the X8. And frankly if I was the NTA I'd just offer a license to Aircoach/Gobus or any other company who might want the route. I suspect it is a busy enough route that some one will be willing to make a go at it, even without PSO money.

The private operators increased capacity on our intercity routes 5 to 6 fold and did it at zero cost to the taxpayer. It has been a major win both for the taxpayer and the users of these services.

28-09-2020 10:18pm

IE 222 wrote: »

As we've also seen with covid the private operators don't hang around to act as a "service to the community".

As we've seen with Bus Eireann strikes, they don't hang around to act as a "service to the community" when time comes to try line their own pockets with unjustifiable pay claims.

end of the road · 28-09-2020 11:11pm

salonfire wrote: »

As we've seen with Bus Eireann strikes, they don't hang around to act as a "service to the community" when time comes to try line their own pockets with unjustifiable pay claims.

nobody goes on strike for unjustifiable pay claims as that would be pointless as the claims would and could never be met.
the last strike at bus eireann was what, 4 years ago now? so hardly this strike happy company that you seem to believe they are.

john boye · 28-09-2020 11:42pm

IE 222 wrote: »

As we've also seen with covid the private operators don't hang around to act as a "service to the community".

I don't want to go down an endless private v public rabbit hole but; The privateers got out as soon as covid hit and the fares dried up. BE kept their show on the road on a reduced schedule through emergency funding. Now the funding is stopping and BE are getting out too. So what's the difference?

jetfiremuck · 28-09-2020 11:47pm

Look Expressway inter city had the whole thing to themselves for years. They did shag all when it was opened up to private operators even attempting to compete. FFs how long did it take to put a jax in them ffs

Bus Éireann to close 5 Expressway Routes

Comments