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Police shootings, vigilante shootings, and Black Lives Matter

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    #452
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    You're complaining about the use of non-lethal means to disrupt a riot? Would you prefer the methods used in other countries, where they just mow down folks in the street?

    I'm asking about specific events which happened in America this past summer and whether or not you consider them to be tyrannical or oppressive.


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    #453
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,261 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I'm asking about specific events which happened in America this past summer and whether or not you consider them to be tyrannical or oppressive.

    You have the right to protest, you do not have a right to riot. As soon as a protest turns violent you have lost any moral high ground.

    Police should be wearing badges but failing to do so is not tyrannical, our own police have done it a few times.


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    #454
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    You have the right to protest, you do not have a right to riot. As soon as a protest turns violent you have lost any moral high ground.

    Police should be wearing badges but failing to do so is not tyrannical, our own police have done it a few times.

    What about when it turns violent due to the presence of agitators?
    Minneapolis Police Reportedly Identify Viral 'Umbrella Man' As White Supremacist

    So, a governmental force with no identification using excessive force on 1st amendment practising people is not tyranny?

    Do you think Irish police (or agents of) operating without identification is acceptable?

    What, in your view is an example of tyranny?


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    #455
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I'm asking about specific events which happened in America this past summer and whether or not you consider them to be tyrannical or oppressive.

    No, I don't.


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    #456
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    No, I don't.

    Can you give an example of what you think would be an entry level tyrannical act for a government which would justify citizens using armed force?


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    #457
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Can you give an example of what you think would be an entry level tyrannical act for a government which would justify citizens using armed force?

    Dead bodies in the streets, mass internment and denial of legal rights, arrest and jailing of opposition politicians, denial of constitutional rights.


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    #458
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,261 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Tell me how wrote: »
    What about when it turns violent due to the presence of agitators?



    So, a governmental force with no identification using excessive force on 1st amendment practising people is not tyranny?

    Do you think Irish police (or agents of) operating without identification is acceptable?

    What, in your view is an example of tyranny?

    I don’t doubt there are agitators from the right but the protests on the whole have been violent and intent on property destruction from the start.

    It’s frustrating to watch something that will undermine anything they hoped to achieve.


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    #459
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    I don’t doubt their are agitators from the right but the protests on the whole have been violent and intent on property destruction from the start.

    It’s frustrating to watch something that will undermine anything they hoped to achieve.

    The evidence doesn't support this.
    93% of Black Lives Matter Protests Have Been Peaceful, New Report Finds

    There are still protests happening daily which receive no national media coverage, because, they are entirely violence free. They don't even warrant a police presence.

    And the numbers arrested versus the numbers protested indicate the vast vast majority of protesters are peaceful.


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    #460
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Dead bodies in the streets, mass internment and denial of legal rights, arrest and jailing of opposition politicians, denial of constitutional rights.

    Like their right to free speech, as protected by the 1st amendment of the constitution?

    Or what about this guy?
    KL63OSFKPAI6VAEC3HW66CHRVM.jpg
    Not a tyrannical act no?

    Do you think Trump was calling for tyranny with his 'Lock Her Up' strategy of 2016?

    Or the carrying out of forced sterilisation by ICE currently being investigated? Would that be tyrannical, in your view?


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    #461
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Like their right to free speech, as protected by the 1st amendment of the constitution?

    Or what about this guy?
    KL63OSFKPAI6VAEC3HW66CHRVM.jpg
    Not a tyrannical act no?

    Do you think Trump was calling for tyranny with his 'Lock Her Up' strategy of 2016?

    Or the carrying out of forced sterilisation by ICE currently being investigated? Would that be tyrannical, in your view?

    Putting aside your tendencies towards unfounded sensationalism, there has been no mass crack down on protests. Far from it. I doubt a tyrannical regime would have permitted the CHAZ situation to perpetuate, or for protests outside the WH.

    You can strawman all day long, the US isn't in the thrall of a despot, democracy and the rule of law still exists. Life will continue after the election.


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    #462
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Putting aside your tendencies towards unfounded sensationalism, there has been no mass crack down on protests. Far from it. I doubt a tyrannical regime would have permitted the CHAZ situation to perpetuate, or for protests outside the WH.

    You can strawman all day long, the US isn't in the thrall of a despot, democracy and the rule of law still exists. Life will continue after the election.

    I want to establish what your bench mark is and it seems that in your view it will only become 'tyranny' when it is happening across the whole country, isolated, documented events of such acts, and a President pleading with governors for more use of the same tactics within their state is in no way tyrannical in your view.

    The protests outside the White House were indeed interrupted with tear gas and they were the event for which the military was asked about the availability of a war zone weapon.

    These are facts.


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    #463
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I want to establish what your bench mark is and it seems that in your view it will only become 'tyranny' when it is happening across the whole country, isolated, documented events of such acts, and a President pleading with governors for more use of the same tactics within their state is in no way tyrannical in your view.

    The protests outside the White House were indeed interrupted with tear gas and they were the event for which the military was asked about the availability of a war zone weapon.

    These are facts.

    No, I don't view them as evidence of a tryanny that would warrant an armed uprising. Any other ways you want to frame that question to get the same answer?


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    #464
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    No, I don't view them as evidence of a tryanny that would warrant an armed uprising. Any other ways you want to frame that question to get the same answer?

    So its tyranny, but not enough tyranny?

    Well, I suppose we should be thankful for that much.


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    #465
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,261 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Tell me how wrote: »
    The evidence doesn't support this.



    There are still protests happening daily which receive no national media coverage, because, they are entirely violence free. They don't even warrant a police presence.

    And the numbers arrested versus the numbers protested indicate the vast vast majority of protesters are peaceful.


    The reporting has been too partisan and you get very different stories from the different news outlets.

    From Wikipedia:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests

    Search Results
    Featured snippet from the web
    However, the violence had resulted in two deaths, 617 arrests, and upwards of $500 million in property damage to 1,500 locations, making it the second-most destructive period of local unrest in United States history, after the 1992 Los Angeles riots.


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    #466
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    So its tyranny, but not enough tyranny?

    Well, I suppose we should be thankful for that much.

    It's not tryanny but trying to frame it as such seems to be very important to you. Pray tell why?


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    #467
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Do you think the intent to use war field weaponry against such protesters would be evidence of a tyrannical mindset?

    Do you think the use of unidentifiable forces to quell people practising their first amendment right is an oppressive act?

    Don't mind heat rays they need to start spraying the weirdos with that skunk stuff, that'll soften their coughs


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    #468
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    It's not tryanny but trying to frame it as such seems to be very important to you. Pray tell why?

    You suggested that resisting the government is a valid reason for owning a gun. I'm trying to understand in what circumstances this would be the case for you particularly given the governments behaviour in recent weeks and months.


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    #469
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Tell me how wrote: »
    You suggested that resisting the government is a valid reason for owning a gun. I'm trying to understand in what circumstances this would be the case for you particularly given the governments behaviour in recent weeks and months.

    Well, I explained my views on it pretty succinctly then.


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    #470
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Well, I explained my views on it pretty succinctly then.

    You think people should be allowed to own a gun as a counter measure to government tyranny.

    At what point would you agree that it’s acceptable to resist government tyranny? Generalities like bodies in the street and mass incarceration seem a bit too vague for me.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #471
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,522 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Brian? wrote: »
    You think people should be allowed to own a gun as a counter measure to government tyranny.

    At what point would you agree that it’s acceptable to resist government tyranny? Generalities like bodies in the street and mass incarceration seem a bit too vague for me.

    It's not when unidentifiable armed forces are beating and arresting peaceful protesters, or when the government asks the military if a weapon designed for use in war zones is available to be used on peaceful protesters exercising their first amendment rights apparently. Oh and not when the President is pleading with Governors to use more force and to be more physical with protesters.

    We established that earlier.

    Think the poster acknowledged that the above is tyranny, just not enough for the people to fight back however.


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    #472
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    You think people should be allowed to own a gun as a counter measure to government tyranny.

    At what point would you agree that it’s acceptable to resist government tyranny? Generalities like bodies in the street and mass incarceration seem a bit too vague for me.

    Is there still the rule of law? Has the constitution been suspended? Are civilians being rounded up, or killed en masse in the streets?

    Not the case in the US. So no, I wouldn't call it even close to a tryanny. Despite the hysterics of some on here


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    #473
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Is there still the rule of law? Has the constitution been suspended? Are civilians being rounded up, or killed en masse in the streets?

    Not the case in the US. So no, I wouldn't call it even close to a tryanny. Despite the hysterics of some on here

    You need all 3 or just one for official tyranny?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #474
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    You need all 3 or just one for official tyranny?

    You asked me for an opinion. I doubt you need any help from me to draw your conclusions


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    #475
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    You asked me for an opinion. I doubt you need any help from me to draw your conclusions

    I’m asking you to clarify an opinion.

    I think you’re setting a pretty high bar for tyranny to be honest. A bar that’s unlikely to ever be met. So your argument that guns are necessary to protect against government tyranny don’t really hold water.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #476
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,261 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Brian? wrote: »
    I’m asking you to clarify an opinion.

    I think you’re setting a pretty high bar for tyranny to be honest. A bar that’s unlikely to ever be met. So your argument that guns are necessary to protect against government tyranny don’t really hold water.

    If you want to see real tyranny just look at any communist run country and look at how they deal with protesters.


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    #477
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,271 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    If you want to see real tyranny just look at any communist run country and look at how they deal with protesters.
    You mean things such as military clad government forces abducting people in unidentified vehicles which is against the countries constitution? Or perhaps you're referring to encouraging militant vigilantes among your own supporters to kill people? You know; those kind of things as are done in Belarus today and oh, wait, USA as well...


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    #478
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    If you want to see real tyranny just look at any communist run country and look at how they deal with protesters.

    You know if it's wrong when they do it, it's wrong when the US government do it?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #479
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    If you want to see real tyranny just look at any communist run country and look at how they deal with protesters.

    I have trouble identifying any communist run country.


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    #480
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,271 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Water John wrote: »
    I have trouble identifying any communist run country.
    Venezuela would probably be the closest fit today along with Cuba (though Cuba is "regressing" slowly). Russia and Belarus are no longer communist countries but simply dictatorships hiding behind "free elections" and NV was never so much communist as it was a personality cult. China while communistic is not a true communist country due to being to pragmatic and capitalistic etc. Laos and Vietnam are also suppose to be communist countries but in case of Vietnam (don't know Laos well enough to comment) there is a big oligarchies family owned setups etc. which means not state owned factories which sort of is a key point.


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    #481
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Brian? wrote: »
    I’m asking you to clarify an opinion.

    I think you’re setting a pretty high bar for tyranny to be honest. A bar that’s unlikely to ever be met. So your argument that guns are necessary to protect against government tyranny don’t really hold water.

    Have a read through the histories of Eastern Europe when the USSR came a calling, pretty solid example of a tryanny.

    I get it Brian, you want to either a) have some gotcha moment, where you triumphantly declare hypocrisy; or b) make some convoluted point about Trump being a Kroger brand tyrant. I don't see it myself but YMMV


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