COVID-19: Vaccine/antidote and testing procedures Megathread [Mod Warning - Post #1]

Gradius wrote: »

How is that separate??

The trials are on a scale that have never been seen before. Vaccines for SARS were already in development, it's not a new thing.

charlie14 wrote: »

Every time I read or hear a comment like that I imagine two old lads watching the first Model T Ford`s rolling off the production line with one turning to the other saying, " Those yokes were built so fast they have to be much more dangerous"

Was Henry Ford lobbying the US government ask them to pay for any claims if there was a crash due to the malfunctioning of their cars.

Because that's what the vaccine producers are lobbying for at the moment in the EU trying to make the EU and ultimately EU tax payers liable for compensation claims as a result of potential side effects from taking the vaccine.

I highly doubt that headlines like these will inspire confidence in the vaccine among the general public.

"COVID-19 vaccine makers see EU shield against side-effect claims."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-vaccine/update-2-coronavirus-vaccine-makers-see-eu-shield-against-side-effect-claims-idUKL5N2GJ1JO

"Vaccine makers will be indemnified in Europe if their COVID-19 shots cause unexpected side-effects, an industry official said on Tuesday, urging European regulators to set up more predictable schemes to compensate possible victims."

LessOutragePlz wrote: »

Was Henry Ford lobbying the US government ask them to pay for any claims if there was a crash due to the malfunctioning of their cars.

Because that's what the vaccine producers are lobbying for at the moment in the EU trying to make the EU and ultimately EU tax payers liable for compensation claims as a result of potential side effects from taking the vaccine.

I highly doubt that headlines like these will inspire confidence in the vaccine among the general public.

"COVID-19 vaccine makers see EU shield against side-effect claims."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-vaccine/update-2-coronavirus-vaccine-makers-see-eu-shield-against-side-effect-claims-idUKL5N2GJ1JO

"Vaccine makers will be indemnified in Europe if their COVID-19 shots cause unexpected side-effects, an industry official said on Tuesday, urging European regulators to set up more predictable schemes to compensate possible victims."

It just shows the economic damage this pandemic is causing when government are prepared to do that.
Even at that, I would see it as an added incentive to governments to ensure vaccines are safe.

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Time means sweet f all when you've enrollment of 30000+ per trial.

Man, the reason vaccines are put through such stringent, time-consuming trials is because the detrimental effect could be disastrous with a capital D.

If something is going to give you a heart attack after using it for 7 months, it doesn't matter if you have 50 billion people that tested it for only 6 months.

froog wrote: »

No but you run phases concurrently and you can do the longest phase 3 in record time due to how prevalent coronavirus is. If you read up a bit on how vaccines are developed you will understand how it is possible.

How many vaccines have you designed? I'll bet it's less than me.

I don't understand how people can't get their head around the basics here.

The whole point is time ITSELF.

It's like trying to tell me that if you glue 10 people together, they can then run 10 times faster. It's just fundamentally wrong.

Polar101 wrote: »

Did the vaccine you designed cause many heartattacks in people after 7 months?

No, but thats because they were thoroughly tested from animal to human over swathes of time.

It's true, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You have armies of people proclaiming "knowledge" on oftentimes ridiculously complicated fields after having watched a few 5 minute videos on YouTube and an article from some journalist.

Its food for thought on how people get what they deserve..

I mean look at you and your comment, youre attempting to ridicule me because...what, I've designed vaccines? Because I'm pointing out the truth?

It's like a peek into everything wrong with everything.

Hmmzis wrote: »

So what exact biological mechanisms would you be expecting to see during those 15 years of trials that would not be detectable in the first 6-8 weeks? I don't think I've read any study about an adverse event linked to a vaccine that was induced that long after serocoversion. Could you please provide some citations for said mechanisms?

Usually phase 3 trials take ages due to lack of enrollment and having to chase outbreaks, also having a large phase 3 is expensive so smaller trials are used but they have to wait longer for the infection events to trigger a review.

I only noticed this now. You think I'm going to waste my time giving you citations after that first sentence?

An experimental car didn't explode after driving it for 5 minutes. Sure what would you be expecting to go wrong over the next decade?! Pfft, it's 100% safe.

Gradius wrote: »

Let me just post up a c.v, my address, photos and Bank details, all so I can win an internet point.

No, that won't be happening.

Just the vaccines you designed is enough.

Lol we have an actual vaccine designer on boards now. Truely we are honored!

astrofool wrote: »

Just the vaccines you designed is enough.

Oh you've got me on the ropes now!

If I were to mention them it's a matter of 5 minutes to find my name and so on.

So no, I'm not retarded.

That you couldn't imagine that scenario though... :P

froog wrote: »

Lol we have an actual vaccine designer on boards now. Truely we are honored!

....and only just today decided to start posting in the vaccines thread (from what I can make out)!

froog wrote: »

Lol we have an actual vaccine designer on boards now. Truely we are honored!

Truely...

Gas, isn't it, how it becomes a point of attempted ridicule?

What do you think that means?

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Time means sweet f all when you've enrollment of 30000+ per trial.

Problem is though you have to wait something like 6 months for enough people to be infected or not infected and also from a safety point of view. And the wrong kinds of people might be exposed to the virus, eg healthy ones when really you want a lot of vaccinated elderly exposed.

Oxford are saying they hope to know by November if their vaccine works. I'm optimistic it will work, but if it doesn't, we could be in trouble in that maybe no vaccine will work.

The Chinese are currently vaccinating healthcare workers in UAE. It will be fascinating to see if there's a decline in cases or deaths there.

Hmmzis wrote: »

So what exact biological mechanisms would you be expecting to see during those 15 years of trials that would not be detectable in the first 6-8 weeks? I don't think I've read any study about an adverse event linked to a vaccine that was induced that long after serocoversion. Could you please provide some citations for said mechanisms?

Usually phase 3 trials take ages due to lack of enrollment and having to chase outbreaks, also having a large phase 3 is expensive so smaller trials are used but they have to wait longer for the infection events to trigger a review.

The ongoing phase III trials of ~30,000 participants from a wide range of age and patient groups should give us good data on the safety of the vaccines themselves in the absence of infection with the virus.

But these trials are designed to report once there have been ~200 infections in either the control or vaccine groups - i.e. only a small number of patients where we have data on the interaction between the virus and the immune response induced by the vaccine .

And the trials will report just a few months after the participants are vaccinated, so we will not know if the vaccine remains protective six months, 12 months etc after it is given, or even whether people who received the vaccine could have more severe illness on infection than the non-vaccinated as immunity wanes, which is at least a theoretical possibility.

Given the pressing need for a vaccine, the testing that is being done is probably the best that can be achieved, but we will not have a full picture of the safety of any of these vaccines at the point when mass vaccination of tens or even hundreds of millions of people begins.

These issues were all recently explored on an episode of TWiV that I found very informative. A science journalist gives his review of a seminar with scientific officers from all of the main companies that have started or are about to start phase III trials.

Starts @1hr, 1min, though the initial section describing all the different types of vaccines is also worth listening to: