Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

spookwoman · 22-09-2020 12:35AM

s1ippy wrote: »

Anyone know why haven't Sweden updated their cases or deaths since September 5th?

Seems to be updated here
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa/page/page_0/

GT89 · 22-09-2020 12:54AM

spookwoman wrote: »

283 Critical Care Beds Open and staffed
241 Occupied including 17 Covid patients
20 Beds reserved
38 available at 18.30 hours

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/newsfeatures/covid19-updates/covid-19-daily-operations-update-20-00-21-september-2020.pdf

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

John O.Groats · 22-09-2020 12:59AM

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

Completely untrue.

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:06AM

John O.Groats wrote: »

Completely untrue.

All that fearmongering can't be good for you. When you're locked up in your house in a few weeks time Ile be out enjoying the autumn sunshine.

bb1234567 · 22-09-2020 01:06AM

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

40% of ICU capacity in Madrid for example currently is catering to COVID patients, and the situation is not even considered that bad yet, at least compared to April. So what do you think happens to all the heart attack, car crash victims etc when all the beds become filled with covid patients? That's why 'all the panic talk about ICU'. We don't all have heart attacks enmasse, it's exactly why ICUs don't become overwhelmed by heart attacks. As you know, COVID tends to make very large numbers of people sick very quickly if left to it's devices. Like are you for real? Are you trolling?

22-09-2020 01:10AM

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

its almost as if all of these things arent all that likely to happen to very large numbers of us all at once, but that a pandemic isnt comparable

i mean its almost exactly like that

i mean its that

thats the thing

let us know when that penny drops

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:11AM

bb1234567 wrote: »

40% of ICU capacity in Madrid for example currently is catering to COVID patients, and the situation is not even considered that bad yet, at least compared to April. So what do you think happens to all the heart attack, car crash victims etc when all the beds become filled with covid patients? That's why 'all the panic talk about ICU'

It's been taken up mostly by the over 65s/immunocompromised. Put in targetted measures to protect these groups and you won't have these problems. Fat people are more vulnerable too so include those with a BMI of more than 30 in any targetted measures/recommendations.

John O.Groats · 22-09-2020 01:11AM

GT89 wrote: »

All that fearmongering can't be good for you. When you're locked up in your house in a few weeks time Ile be out enjoying the autumn sunshine.

Really? I wouldn`t be too sure about that if I were you. BTW have you done anything yet about dealing with your issues?

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:13AM

John O.Groats wrote: »

Really? I wouldn`t be too sure about that if I were you.

What the weather or the lockdown?

JP Liz V1 · 22-09-2020 01:16AM

stockshares wrote: »

Latest ICU figures from Paul Reid.

https://twitter.com/paulreiddublin/status/1308155466049085441?s=19

90 in total in ROI hospitals with Covid now?

Arghus · 22-09-2020 01:18AM

GT89 wrote: »

It's been taken up mostly by the over 65s/immunocompromised. Put in targetted measures to protect these groups and you won't have these problems. Fat people are more vulnerable too so include those with a BMI of more than 30 in any targetted measures/recommendations.

Targetted measures like what.

John O.Groats · 22-09-2020 01:20AM

GT89 wrote: »

What the weather or the lockdown?

Both.

majcos · 22-09-2020 01:23AM

GT89 wrote: »

Where is the panic talk about ICU bed availability every winter? We could all end up in ICU at any given time due to RTCs, heart attacks, strokes etc. not something I spend my day worrying about it. The chances of a healthy person ending up in ICU with covid are about the same as ending up in ICU because of a car crash, heart attack, stroke, one punch assault, falling down the stairs or workplace accident.

The vulnerable can take measures to protect themselves whilst the healthy should really be getting on with their lives.

At peak in April, 166 of our ICU beds in a single day were occupied by patients with Covid-19. It is incredible we managed to accommodate 166 patients with a single illness at the same time in ICU at any time especially if you look at the usual occupancy levels in ICU discounting or before Covid.

As per the figures you use, there are 241/283 ICUs currently occupied with 17 patients with Covid-19 cases. Can you not see why there are concerns about where to fit patients with Covid-19 requiring ICU care if we reach the same peak? Or where you would fit and how you would manage to look after the ‘healthy person’ who happened to have a car accident during a Covid surge if the ICU was already overflowing with patients with Covid?

Hospitalizations and ICU admissions are nowhere near what they were in April/May but the concern is understandable when you look at what the numbers were like in these settings just a few months ago.

Trying to source some exact figures for ICU admissions for influenza in previous winters but it has never reached the numbers Covid did.

Edited: Total admissions to ICU for influenza for 2019/2020 season is 154. People admitted to ICU and to hospital with influenza/an influenza like illness are tested for influenza. Would not necessarily be tested in the community but patients are tested in hospital setting. Total admissions to ICU with Covid to date is 455.

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:23AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

its almost as if all of these things arent all that likely to happen to very large numbers of us all at once, but that a pandemic isnt comparable

i mean its almost exactly like that

i mean its that

thats the thing

let us know when that penny drops

Swine flu in 2009 was a pandemic without the extreme fearmongering. Where's the 120,000 deaths that were predicted back in March now I know the usual argument is "but it was the measures we took which stopped that" but we haven't even come anywhere even remotely close to that.

Now the measures taken may have a had a part to play but maybe the fact that the virus isn't quite as deadly as the media are making out is playing an even bigger part.

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:25AM

Arghus wrote: »

Targetted measures like what.

Isolating the vulnerable and use of masks as PPE for them.

John O.Groats · 22-09-2020 01:32AM

GT89 wrote: »

Isolating the vulnerable and use of masks as PPE for them.

But you constantly claim that mask wearing is useless, so why is it now suddenly something that you would recommend? Is the penny beginning to drop?

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:34AM

majcos wrote: »

At peak in April, 166 of our ICU beds in a single day were occupied by patients with Covid-19. It is incredible we managed to accommodate 166 patients with a single illness at the same time in ICU at any time especially if you look at the usual occupancy levels in ICU discounting or before Covid.

As per the figures you use, there are 241/283 ICUs currently occupied with 17 patients with Covid-19 cases. Can you not see why there are concerns about where to fit patients with Covid-19 requiring ICU care if we reach the same peak? Or where you would fit and how you would manage to look after the ‘healthy person’ who happened to have a car accident during a Covid surge if the ICU was already overflowing with patients with Covid?

Hospitalizations and ICU admissions are nowhere near what they were in April/May but the concern is understandable when you look at what the numbers were like in these settings just a few months ago.

Trying to source some exact figures for ICU admissions for influenza in previous winters but it has never reached the numbers Covid did.

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

Goldengirl · 22-09-2020 01:36AM

s1ippy wrote: »

Anyone know why haven't Sweden updated their cases or deaths since September 5th?

Sweden's testing seems to have slowed down a heck of a lot too.

Arghus · 22-09-2020 01:37AM

GT89 wrote: »

Isolating the vulnerable and use of masks as PPE for them.

Well the whole country is using masks and PPE at the moment.

What's the estimate of the amount of people in Ireland who have a underlying condition? It's something like a third isn't it?

So keep up to a third of the population under lock and key indefinitely?

Bearing in mind as well that hospitals will be effectively off limits to these people if Covid is circulating widely in the community at large, which it will be if we're making even less of an effort to suppress it than we already are.

And of course a lot of these potentially vulnerable people live with others or rely on carers, doctors and nursing staff who they will have to come into contact. You'll have to isolate these people too if covid is circulating widely in the community.

Simply "isolating the vulnerable" isn't as easy or as straightforward as it sounds.

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:41AM

John O.Groats wrote: »

But you constantly claim that mask wearing is useless, so why is it now suddenly something that you would recommend? Is the penny beginning to drop?

Only an N95/FFP2 mask actually works. Masks were introduced supoosedly to stop the spread but the cases have gone through the roof since they were introduced. Masks that offer actual protection would be useful for the vulnerable whilst the virus should be let run through the healthy population.

spookwoman · 22-09-2020 01:43AM

GT89 wrote: »

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

What proof do you have of this, that those in ICU came in with another illness?

bb1234567 · 22-09-2020 01:43AM

GT89 wrote: »

Swine flu in 2009 was a pandemic without the extreme fearmongering. Where's the 120,000 deaths that were predicted back in March now I know the usual argument is "but it was the measures we took which stopped that" but we haven't even come anywhere even remotely close to that.

Now the measures taken may have a had a part to play but maybe the fact that the virus isn't quite as deadly as the media are making out is playing an even bigger part.

Swine flu was without fear mongering because it hardly killed anybody

USA swine flu excess deaths were 12,500
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/13/fact-check-swine-flu-spread-rapidly-but-not-deadly-covid-19/5577001002/

COVID excess deaths in the USA are over 250,000
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19s-other-unnecessary-death-toll/

There is fear mongering because COVID is the third leading cause of death in the US for the 7th month running now.

majcos · 22-09-2020 01:46AM

GT89 wrote: »

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

In late March/April, testing capacity was still limited so criteria for testing was quite strict and testing was only done in those who had symptoms and clinical presentations suspected to be directly related to Covid.

In April, it is more likely that some cases were missed rather than people with completely unrelated illnesses and asymptomatic carriage were diagnosed.

A patient with Covid who has a terminal illness or multiple co-morbidities is and would not have been admitted to ICU.

bb1234567 · 22-09-2020 01:49AM

GT89 wrote: »

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

Yes it is really just a big old coincidence that the increase in ICU beds catering to COVID patients occurred at the same time that national excess deaths spiked by over 1000 in April .Some poeple will really convince themselves of anything

GT89 · 22-09-2020 01:53AM

Arghus wrote: »

Well the whole country is using masks and PPE at the moment.

What's the estimate of the amount of people in Ireland who have a underlying condition? It's something like a third isn't it?

So keep up to a third of the population under lock and key indefinitely?

Bearing in mind as well that hospitals will be effectively off limits to these people if Covid is circulating widely in the community at large, which it will be if we're making even less of an effort to suppress it than we already are.

And of course a lot of these potentially vulnerable people live with others or rely on carers, doctors and nursing staff who they will have to come into contact. You'll have to isolate these people too if covid is circulating widely in the community.

Simply "isolating the vulnerable" isn't as easy or as straightforward as it sounds.

You clearly don't know the defintion of PPE so.

Personal protective equipment is protective clothing, helmets, goggles, or other garments or equipment designed to protect the wearer's body from injury or infection.

PPE is to protect the user of the the PPE not to protect others from the wearer. Locking up a third of the population is surely better than locking up the entire population and it's only certain underlying that would put a person at risk of covid so it wouldn't be a third of the population.

People who come into contact with vulnerable people could be tested constantly. And vulnerable people can reduce their contacts also these measures would be voluntary not mandatory.

Goldengirl · 22-09-2020 01:56AM

14 adult critical care beds , and 126 general hospital beds , vacant in Dublin amongst 6 hospitals .

Some of these ICU beds may now be reserved , but note that if ICU availability comes under pressure ,all elective surgery first , procedures and appointments then will be stopped also .

22-09-2020 02:00AM

El Sueño wrote: »

Whoever came up with the idea of having that covid quiz should be shot out of a cannon

Poor taste and not very entertaining

22-09-2020 02:03AM

look its a little tedious to keep asking this but im going to persist anyway

GT89, apart from typing, what are the qualifications and relevant experience you are bringing to the table to set against the NPHET in terms of expertise in public advice against pandemic and against the govt and civil service in terms of gauging what elements of that idealised advice can be implemented with all the other aspects a govt has to take into account?

every single poster who wants to be taken seriously in opposing the actions of the actual experts and the actual mandated govt should set their balls on the table

single worst thing about boards isnt far right, far left, moderation, hate speech or anything else

its that not only is there an endless supply of posters who genuinely seem to think being able to fill a blank box with type makes their opinion the match of actual, demonstrated expertise, but that there is an almost endless supply of posters who seem happy to nod along with never a hint of genuine self-examination from anyone involved.

expertise and mandate matter and in the middle of a pandemic it really is incumbent on everyone to acknowledge that. the stakes are too high for this constant "we all have an equal opinion" rubbish. save that for soaps and sport.

what starts as "criticise the govt from the barstool" turns into shinner-level "we have one of the worst govts in the world" leads to "nobody has the right to tell me what to do!" in the middle of an actual deadly actual global threat where egging on this type of "my word's as good as anyone's" lunacy gets people killed and keeps countries locked down.

you're either with the national effort or not, whether some other pricks attended a golf dinner or not, whether you vote fffg or not, whether you think every member of the board of national experts is a political stooge out to spoil your autumn or not.

no sidelines. no "im only saying" because idiots read boards and twitter and use the "only saying" as reasons to do damage.

you're either with us, or against us. I can't see the value in opposing the efforts against a national crisis, no matter how important you feel hitting 'send' on a post that sticks it to the man.

Arghus · 22-09-2020 02:13AM

GT89 wrote: »

You clearly don't know the defintion of PPE so.

PPE is to protect the user of the the PPE not to protect others from the wearer. Locking up a third of the population is surely better than locking up the entire population and it's only certain underlying that would put a person at risk of covid so it wouldn't be a third of the population.

People who come into contact with vulnerable people could be tested constantly. And vulnerable people can reduce their contacts also these measures would be voluntary not mandatory.

Yes, I know what PPE is. But thank you for that anyway.

Isolating the huge proportion of the population that is vulnerable to this virus for an indefinite period and letting it rip is a complete non-starter. It's logistically impossible and ethically dubious. You can't or won't see that. Sure, look it, that's your view - but I don't think I could have outlined any clearer why it's borderline impossible. It's appealing as an approach because it sounds possible, but once you think through its implications and complexities you realise how unworkable it is.

I don't agree that the entire population is currently locked up. We all are living with restrictions on our lives, but that's not the entire population being locked up.

majcos · 22-09-2020 02:14AM

GT89 wrote: »

Most of those patients would likely have been in ICU anyway with other illnesses but happened to be covid positive. Everyone who dies with covid is counted as a covid death but only a small minority died of covid.

We cannot discount all deaths of people with an underlying health condition and say they did not die of Covid because they had another health condition. Not all of those with an underlying health condition would have died this year had they not contracted Covid. I agree some may have been close to their end with a terminal illness but even then it would be difficult to know how much longer that individual with cancer, for example, may have it if they had not contracted Covid..

About 1.2 million people in Ireland are estimated to have hypertension. With basic healthcare, most of those should still have a normal life expectancy. A person who is diagnosed with hypertension in their 30s should still expect to live to their 80s.

Do we not count someone who dies with Covid because they have high blood pressure, diabetes (maybe just on a diet or tablets), asthma (perhaps just use an inhaler once or twice a year), sarcoidosis (but maybe not on any treatment), etc., etc.? Even those in their 80s and 90s who died of Covid cannot be discounted. They may have lived for another five years, another ten years. If a 90 year old died in a car accident, should he/she not be counted in the figures for road deaths for the year because of their age?

Covid 19 Part XXIII-33,444 in ROI(1,792 deaths) 9,541 in NI(577 deaths)(22/09)Read OP

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