Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

duploelabs · 15-09-2020 2:37pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

He needs to highlight not just what whites have done to blacks. A black man killed a white 5 year old child, but if a white F1 driver spoke out on that he’d be hammered. It can’t be all one way traffic as is proving to be the case with him

Whataboutism never works in these issues. Hamilton is a black man, highlighting issues that occur to people of colour. He has earned a position to display his brand as he sees fit, some he receives renumeration for, some he does on his own ethical basis. If that harms his image, that's on him and I'm sure he'll lose no sleep if it ruffles a few feathers but that's his choice to make and more power to him.

vectra · 15-09-2020 2:45pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Antonio Giovinazzi is not working out well. Can't blame ferrari for trying to bring through an Italian young driver but he's out of his depth and hasn't adapted. Might keep Kimi in the sport for another year.

What on earth makes you think Kimi would teach a young driver? I'd be surprised if Kimi would grunt at his teammate let alone take the time to coach him.

True about him not offering a grunt. But almost each and every team mate he has had, have said they learned a lot from him.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-09-2020 2:48pm

vectra wrote: »

True about him not offering a grunt. But almost each and every team mate he has had, have said they learned a lot from him.

OK. Hardly a good teacher-student relationship if you want to "train" mick Schumacher, as you said.

Maybe they'll just have to make do wihh Kimi as I would t want a young driver to learn much from Gio.

Anjobe · 15-09-2020 2:57pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. Hardly a good teacher-student relationship if you want to "train" mick Schumacher, as you said.

Maybe they'll just have to make do wihh Kimi as I would t want a young driver to learn much from Gio.

I see Mick Schumacher is leading the F2 championship now, but surely Shwartzman is the big talent in the Ferrari academy?

skipper_G · 15-09-2020 3:39pm

Anjobe wrote: »

I see Mick Schumacher is leading the F2 championship now, but surely Shwartzman is the big talent in the Ferrari academy?

He's talented for sure but not ready for an F1 seat. What stands Mick apart from the other FDA drivers aside from his surname is his consistency. That's why he's leading the championship now, that's how he won the Euro F3 title

15-09-2020 6:12pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The tyres nowadays are doing far more work. The cars are breaking lap records most weekends this year and the cars are heavier. Hopefully the 2022 aero changes help. But it's hard to know if it'll work

Last time they developed more durable tyres they were criticised for now wearing enough. Back then Seb drive the whole race in monza without a pit stop and he only pitted on the second last lap because the rules say you have to.

It's about perception. The cars look boring now except for the odd nice camera shot over a crest or when the Mercs change direction in an instant. I'm well aware the cars are a bit faster now for a lap or 2. When the last rules changes came in Brundle made the point that no-one can tell the difference if all the cars are a few seconds a lap slower. Which is true once they all are. But they look so bloody boring now. The old cars hit bumps, the current ones just kinda go over them. They were twitchy and looked like breathing on the steering wheel could cause a spin. Now in the race everything is calm, controlled, don't slide, don't take a chance and they look really boring.

I'm really just attacking the narrative that cars weren't able to follow in the noughties. I pretty much believed it myself but now looking at it compared to today they were probably better able to follow.

Mixed up grid helped but there's overtakes on a fast, sweeping track by cars within a second a lap of each other

tipp_tipp_tipp · 15-09-2020 6:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm really just attacking the narrative that cars weren't able to follow in the noughties.

They've couldn't follow each other. It was why DRS was introduced. The race you've linked to was great cause the fastest cars started at the back (reverse grids anyone). 2005 was the start of when the dirty air problem got really bad (it was already bad before that) thanks to the raising of the front wings that year. I specifically remember martin brundle complaining about it during the german grand prix that year as the race was becoming a procession (previous races at the revised layout were very good). The term Truilli train wasn't just made up for fun. It was a very real thing that year with 3-4 cars following Jarno stuck the same distance apart. You could literally "see" the invisible wall of dirty air keeping the cars apart.

Funny my first memory of a car shredding it's tyres from following a car too closely is monaco 2009 when rubens did just that following jenson during the early laps. I say funny cause that was the year when the wonky wings were introduced to reduced the dirty air and they were running the decent bridgestone tyres. I also posted here a few months back about watching the 1998 Brazilian GP. I was quite surprised to see schumacher cruise up to the back of frenzten in the early laps, and then never get near him to try for an overtake, stuck in a wall of dirty air. It's been a problem for a long time. The efforts to tackle it in 2009 were pretty pathetic and i think Pat Symonds has never really got the criticism deserved for the rules set his team came up. a real missed opportunity imo.

15-09-2020 7:14pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

They've couldn't follow each other. It was why DRS was introduced. The race you've linked to was great cause the fastest cars started at the back (reverse grids anyone). 2005 was the start of when the dirty air problem got really bad (it was already bad before that) thanks to the raising of the front wings that year. I specifically remember martin brundle complaining about it during the german grand prix that year as the race was becoming a procession (previous races at the revised layout were very good). The term Truilli train wasn't just made up for fun. It was a very real thing that year with 3-4 cars following Jarno stuck the same distance apart. You could literally "see" the invisible wall of dirty air keeping the cars apart.

Funny my first memory of a car shredding it's tyres from following a car too closely is monaco 2009 when rubens did just that following jenson during the early laps. I say funny cause that was the year when the wonky wings were introduced to reduced the dirty air and they were running the decent bridgestone tyres. I also posted here a few months back about watching the 1998 Brazilian GP. I was quite surprised to see schumacher cruise up to the back of frenzten in the early laps, and then never get near him to try for an overtake, stuck in a wall of dirty air. It's been a problem for a long time. The efforts to tackle it in 2009 were pretty pathetic and i think Pat Symonds has never really got the criticism deserved for the rules set his team came up. a real missed opportunity imo.

A lot of ifs coming up (:pac:) but if it wasn't for massive tyre advantages/mixed strategy then it would be harder today for cars to follow. There was the Trulli train, but there's a train in pretty much every race in the first stint now, if the first car in line has good straight line speed no-one can pass them. Once the undercuts start is when the passing starts. At most tracks you need to be a second a lap faster and have DRS to pass. DRS has made passing easier but following is no easier unless there's a tyre difference.
EDIT: The mixed up grid certainly helped but Alonso and Kimi passed Schumi and Kimi was less than a second a lap faster when catching Fisichella but was able to follow and pass him.

15-09-2020 7:21pm

Just watching the 2005 Italian GP highlights and both McLarens had tyres issues. Michelin claimed for the first one it was a puncture and not delamination, when the second one happened Brundle said "I don't care what Michelin are saying, I'm calling it a delamination. Oh for the days when he wasn't a company man. :pac:

tipp_tipp_tipp · 15-09-2020 7:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of ifs coming up (:pac:) but if it wasn't for massive tyre advantages/mixed strategy then it would be harder today for cars to follow. There was the Trulli train, but there's a train in pretty much every race in the first stint now, if the first car in line has good straight line speed no-one can pass them. Once the undercuts start is when the passing starts. At most tracks you need to be a second a lap faster and have DRS to pass. DRS has made passing easier but following is no easier unless there's a tyre difference.
EDIT: The mixed up grid certainly helped but Alonso and Kimi passed Schumi and Kimi was less than a second a lap faster when catching Fisichella but was able to follow and pass him.

Yeah I'd agree with that. The "cheese" tyres from pirelli and DRS were introduced for that exact reason. Prior to that overtaking on track was nigh on impossible. I know some people don't like them, but frankly i enjoy the races today more than back in the noughties.

Re Kimi's pass on Fisichella, to be fair the main reason why he passed him was fisi's stupid and unnecessary line defensive line into the final chicane. His run onto the main straight was so compromised. I don't think Kimi would have got him otherwise. Bu hey that's what separates the good from the great. I thought kimi caught him quicker than a second a lap though. I'd have to watch back, might pulling that from my rear end, been a while since i watched that race.

15-09-2020 8:05pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Yeah I'd agree with that. The "cheese" tyres from pirelli and DRS were introduced for that exact reason. Prior to that overtaking on track was nigh on impossible. I know some people don't like them, but frankly i enjoy the races today more than back in the noughties.

Re Kimi's pass on Fisichella, to be fair the main reason why he passed him was fisi's stupid and unnecessary line defensive line into the final chicane. His run onto the main straight was so compromised. I don't think Kimi would have got him otherwise. Bu hey that's what separates the good from the great. I thought kimi caught him quicker than a second a lap though. I'd have to watch back, might pulling that from my rear end, been a while since i watched that race.

I liked the idea of wearing tyres (and slick tyres) at the time but I'm not a fan of them now. They create passing (rather than overtakes :pac: ) but they also mean you can't follow someone within a second or 2 and try to press them into a mistake. I also think it's made strategy a bit easier now that they've been "figured out".

Re-checked the video, he was 1.2 seconds faster. If you watch from about 11 minutes on though you can see he was able to follow and close on him the whole way through the lap to get in position for the overtake.

Frank Bullitt · 15-09-2020 9:17pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Yeah I'd agree with that. The "cheese" tyres from pirelli and DRS were introduced for that exact reason. Prior to that overtaking on track was nigh on impossible. I know some people don't like them, but frankly i enjoy the races today more than back in the noughties.

Re Kimi's pass on Fisichella, to be fair the main reason why he passed him was fisi's stupid and unnecessary line defensive line into the final chicane. His run onto the main straight was so compromised. I don't think Kimi would have got him otherwise. Bu hey that's what separates the good from the great. I thought kimi caught him quicker than a second a lap though. I'd have to watch back, might pulling that from my rear end, been a while since i watched that race.

Good lord...we had seasons like 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2010. Modern day races are lightyears away from that in terms of competitiveness.

tipp_tipp_tipp · 15-09-2020 9:25pm

Gintonious wrote: »

Good lord...we had seasons like 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2010. Modern day races are lightyears away from that in terms of competitiveness.

Just my personal experience. Those were great seasons yes, and competitive yes, but mostly the races were mostly boring. My own experience is that I've enjoyed a lot of the races in the last couple of years more than any of those seasons you've mentioned.

Frank Bullitt · 15-09-2020 9:50pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Just my personal experience. Those were great seasons yes, and competitive yes, but mostly the races were mostly boring. My own experience is that I've enjoyed a lot of the races in the last couple of years more than any of those seasons you've mentioned.

But...mostly all of the races now are boring as well. The cars sound crap, we have the DRS to help overtaking (I never liked the DRS), and the title is pretty much decided after the first preseason test.

15-09-2020 9:58pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Just my personal experience. Those were great seasons yes, and competitive yes, but mostly the races were mostly boring. My own experience is that I've enjoyed a lot of the races in the last couple of years more than any of those seasons you've mentioned.

Fair enough, different strokes and all that but I find the races way more predictable now than back then. The engine modes thing might change it but even when Hamilton is outside the top 10 it's still obvious he's going to get top 5 and with a safety car a podium. That 2005 Japanese GP was great because it was a rare time that people were able to make it through the field and took great overtaking. Now a shuffled grid would mean less than back then.
I know the pit stops are shorter now and a second lost means more when a stop should be 2 seconds than 8 seconds but back then things were so tight that one lock-up/run wide or a slip with a tyre in the pits could make or break a race. It just seemed more high-stakes or something.

AMKC · 15-09-2020 10:04pm

Gintonious wrote: »

Good lord...we had seasons like 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2010. Modern day races are lightyears away from that in terms of competitiveness.

2012 was a great season too.

tipp_tipp_tipp · 15-09-2020 10:41pm

Gintonious wrote: »

But...mostly all of the races now are boring as well. The cars sound crap, we have the DRS to help overtaking (I never liked the DRS), and the title is pretty much decided after the first preseason test.[/QUOTE

So firstly, there are boring races. there will always be boring races. This is sport. I'm a big hurling fan. I've seen a lot of dull matches sitting in the old stand in Thurles, but I'll go to the match knowing there's a chance it'll be cracker. It's also import to recognise that boring is subjective. A race you may find boring, I may find enjoyable. I'm only describing my own personal experience here.

This season hasn't been good, and I'm disappointed mercedes are as far ahead as they are like everyone else, but yet I really enjoyed Austria 1, silverstone 2 (a classic tactical race imo), monza and I enjoyed the race at the weekend mugello. 4/9 ain't bad for such a dominate season.

I've sat through many a race back in the day where there was little to no overtaking on track, and everything was decided by the pitstops, which was largely predictable after they made them carry the race fuel in qualy. I enjoy the races these days more. Again this is my own experience, sorry if doesn't tally with yours.

The cars sound fine imo. Again subjective. And as an engineer myself, I Like really like the technology behind them. Having seen these cars in the flesh for first time last year, I was mighty impressed. Much better than I expected.

15-09-2020 10:49pm

Ironically the only reason Monza will be remembered as fondly as it will was because it was harder to pass than usual. :pac: Put Hamilton where Bottas was with engine modes to play with and he would've skipped up to first. Luckily Bottas is a pathetic shell of a driver and we got a fun podium. :P

tipp_tipp_tipp · 15-09-2020 10:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair enough, different strokes and all that but I find the races way more predictable now than back then. The engine modes thing might change it but even when Hamilton is outside the top 10 it's still obvious he's going to get top 5 and with a safety car a podium. That 2005 Japanese GP was great because it was a rare time that people were able to make it through the field and took great overtaking. Now a shuffled grid would mean less than back then.
I know the pit stops are shorter now and a second lost means more when a stop should be 2 seconds than 8 seconds but back then things were so tight that one lock-up/run wide or a slip with a tyre in the pits could make or break a race. It just seemed more high-stakes or something.

I don't know what you're getting at here. Forget Japan 2005, and forget Monza 2020, they are not representative of typical races. They were both great, and enjoyable and will rightly go down history. But if you want to discuss the state of F1 racing, both past and present chuck them in the bin.

15-09-2020 10:52pm

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

I don't know what you're getting at here. Forget Japan 2005, and forget Monza 2020, they are not representative of typical races. They were both great, and enjoyable and will rightly go down history. But if you want to discuss the state of F1 racing, both past and present chuck them in the bin.

Just being a bit glib but Monza showed that it being hard to pass isn't always a negative.

tipp_tipp_tipp · 15-09-2020 11:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Just being a bit glib but Monza showed that it being hard to pass isn't always a negative.

Yeah this is a fair point. Imola 2005 was great because it was hard to schumi to pass, and you felt Alonso achieved something holding on. And as was the case at the weekend the DRS zone was too long, and the pass was done before the breaking zone. Yet most races in the past it was impossible to pass, and passes for the lead were very very rare. I think what we have now has at least gives us moments like verstappen passing (running into) Leclerc at austria last year, Hamilton and Rosberg running into each other at Austria 2016. Overall it's nett benefit imo.

Time for leaba for me. Thanks for replies, enjoyed the debate. Cheers guys

chicorytip · 15-09-2020 11:09pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Antonio Giovinazzi is not working out well. Can't blame ferrari for trying to bring through an Italian young driver but he's out of his depth and hasn't adapted. Might keep Kimi in the sport for another year.

What on earth makes you think Kimi would teach a young driver? I'd be surprised if Kimi would grunt at his teammate let alone take the time to coach him.

Giovinazzi is better than he gets credit for and certainly a better medium term option than the touted F2 candidates. He is almost equal to Raikkonen this season so far and has the support of Vasseur who dislikes Kimi and would like to see the back of him. Kubica is in reserve and would not a bad choice for the first team for next season. There is too big a gap in driver age profile on the grid with, currently, only four over the age of 32.

vectra · 16-09-2020 1:03am

chicorytip wrote: »

Giovinazzi is better than he gets credit for and certainly a better medium term option than the touted F2 candidates. He is almost equal to Raikkonen this season so far and has the support of Vasseur who dislikes Kimi and would like to see the back of him. Kubica is in reserve and would not a bad choice for the first team for next season. There is too big a gap in driver age profile on the grid with, currently, only four over the age of 32.

Huhh?
https://dailygp.com/en/raikkonen-is-alfa-romeos-first-choice-for-2021-f1-seat/

vectra · 16-09-2020 1:05am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. Hardly a good teacher-student relationship if you want to "train" mick Schumacher, as you said.

Maybe they'll just have to make do wihh Kimi as I would t want a young driver to learn much from Gio.

Call it what you will.
A word is a bunch of letters grouped together, but I am quite confident you know exactly what I mean, but hey ho. some people never learn.:rolleyes:

El_Duderino 09 · 16-09-2020 8:57am

chicorytip wrote: »

Giovinazzi is better than he gets credit for and certainly a better medium term option than the touted F2 candidates. He is almost equal to Raikkonen this season so far and has the support of Vasseur who dislikes Kimi and would like to see the back of him. Kubica is in reserve and would not a bad choice for the first team for next season. There is too big a gap in driver age profile on the grid with, currently, only four over the age of 32.

Yeah against those drivers Gio cones out looking about par as he's been nip and tuck with Kimi this year. But Kimi is an old driver who has been on the decline for a few years. If you remove the nostalgia and the fact that fans generally like him and just appraise his performance, he'd be gone and rightly so.

Kubica would be a terrible choice. He was absolutely atrocious last year. He was miles off the pace and without a safety car he would finish half a lap to a lap down on Russel. But he's also a nostalgic character and fans generally like him so they pretend he wasn't as terrible as he was last year. He was a pay driver and even with his oil millions, nobody wanted him this year. Renault took a big look at him and gave him a few tests in old cars on different tracks to see if he was able for f1 and they went with other drivers instead. Right decision.

And against those two guys, Gio looks OK. But that's not good enough for a young driver. He should be killing Kimi on raw pace (and then allow for Kimi's experience to give him an advantage at times) but in reality, he's about par with an old driver who hasn't been on top form for a decade.

But it all depends on Alfs's financial situation. Presumably ferrari pays Gio's wages or makes the engines cheaper. (I know the ferrari engine is poor but if they dump Ferrai young drivers and get a new engine supplier then they'd have to pay the driver AND pay for new engines from the new supplier.

In short, alfa is stuck with whatever ferrari's driver academy has to offer and an aging, ever slower Kimi. Perez might be a good option instead of Kimi.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-09-2020 9:02am

vectra wrote: »

Call it what you will.
A word is a bunch of letters grouped together, but I am quite confident you know exactly what I mean, but hey ho. some people never learn.:rolleyes:

I also used the words coach and teach. No idea what your point is.

But I think Kimi won't train, coach or teach his teammate. A younger teammate might learn by copying his setup or telemetry, but they could do that from any driver. I doubt Kimi would actively "train" a younger teammate.

GarIT · 16-09-2020 9:35am

I don't think Alfa can drop Gio. It was reported when they became Alfa that the sponsorship deal gives up any choice they have on their second seat. Ferrari pick Alfa's second driver without consulting Alfa.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-09-2020 10:43am

GarIT wrote: »

I don't think Alfa can drop Gio. It was reported when they became Alfa that the sponsorship deal gives up any choice they have on their second seat. Ferrari pick Alfa's second driver without consulting Alfa.

And presumably they get a discount on ferrari engines or cash as part of that deal too. And there probably buying whole parts from ferrari too. So their fortunes are inextricably linked to ferrari between engine and car parts, driver and probably cash/discounted engines. They'll probably be looking to 2022 for a change in fortune.

Gio isn't terrible. He's about as good as Kimi this year but more likely to crash

vectra · 16-09-2020 11:02am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I also used the words coach and teach. No idea what your point is.

But I think Kimi won't train, coach or teach his teammate. A younger teammate might learn by copying his setup or telemetry, but they could do that from any driver. I doubt Kimi would actively "train" a younger teammate.

Nit picking will get you nowhere, (except maybe another 24 hour ban)

I honestly have no interest or reason in explaining my opinions to YOU.
So I have two words for you which I will refrain from posting here. :rolleyes:

So, go through some other users posts and TROLL their posts like you do mine.
You wont be getting any further replies from me.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-09-2020 11:07am

vectra wrote: »

Nit picking will get you nowhere, (except maybe another 24 hour ban)

I honestly have no interest or reason in explaining my opinions to YOU.
So I have two words for you which I will refrain from posting here. :rolleyes:

So, go through some other users posts and TROLL their posts like you do mine.
You wont be getting any further replies from me.

LOL. Do whatever you want. But probably have a calm down. If you can't have a discussion without wanting to insult someone then that's very much a problem for you, not me. G'luck.

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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