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Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

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Comments

  • #4352
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    That has been my take on it all along.
    MUP is far from an ideal measure, but some of the reactions on here are way over the top.
    Plenty on here said they would make it an election issue, plenty of talk of dictatorships etc.

    People will look baton this thread in a few years and wonder WTF were they getting so excited about the price of off license booze for.

    Surprise, surprise, people are annoyed about something being more expensive. It's truly baffling isn't it?


  • #4353
    elperello
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,264 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    That has been my take on it all along.
    MUP is far from an ideal measure, but some of the reactions on here are way over the top.
    Plenty on here said they would make it an election issue, plenty of talk of dictatorships etc.

    People will look baton this thread in a few years and wonder WTF were they getting so excited about the price of off license booze for.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Surprise, surprise, people are annoyed about something being more expensive. It's truly baffling isn't it?

    I can only speak for myself but if I look back on this thread in a few years I won't be sorry for trying to expose the nonsense that is MUP.

    I will never accept that it is just or moral to charge me more than the market price for a few drinks in my own home.


  • #4354
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    That has been my take on it all along.
    MUP is far from an ideal measure, but some of the reactions on here are way over the top.
    Plenty on here said they would make it an election issue, plenty of talk of dictatorships etc.

    People will look baton this thread in a few years and wonder WTF were they getting so excited about the price of off license booze for.

    Well I look at the price of alcohol here today and compare it to what it was a two generations ago and then I look at Germany where you can buy a 0.5 L beer for 30 c without excessive alcohol abuse and I see there was a serious con going on by the irish gov for a long time.


  • #4355
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The "I" newspaper had the headline yesterday: Britania Waives the Rules.

    How likely is a cross border agreement on this when Britain reneges on agreements?

    We're in recession, they increase the price of alcohol, heres an idea, lets go to Newry for the day, fill up on fuel, and booze.


  • #4356
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The "I" newspaper had the headline yesterday: Britania Waives the Rules.

    How likely is a cross border agreement on this when Britain reneges on agreements?

    We're in recession, they increase the price of alcohol, heres an idea, lets go to Newry for the day, fill up on fuel, and booze.

    People within a reasonable distance of the border already do their shopping this way and have for decades.

    Before Aldi/Lidl forced the cosy Irish grocery cartels into something approaching competitive pricing it was worth it to travel to Newry from Dublin every so often for a car load of long life supplies.

    It may get to the point when it'll be cheaper for those from across the country to do a "booze cruise" by road once or twice a year.

    The real problem in this kip is it is death by a thousand cuts, almost all consumer sectors are more expensive, taxes are higher and unlike other high tax European countries we get crap, often expensive public services for all our money.


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  • #4357
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    People within a reasonable distance of the border already do their shopping this way and have for decades.

    Before Aldi/Lidl forced the cosy Irish grocery cartels into something approaching competitive pricing it was worth it to travel to Newry from Dublin every so often for a car load of long life supplies.

    It may get to the point when it'll be cheaper for those from across the country to do a "booze cruise" by road once or twice a year.

    The real problem in this kip is it is death by a thousand cuts, almost all consumer sectors are more expensive, taxes are higher and unlike other high tax European countries we get crap, often expensive public services for all our money.

    I gave some technical help to someone on boards a few years ago. They were very appreciative and said they were doing a booze cruise to Newry that weekend and invited me along. So, I know its been common for years.

    I was in the UK at the start of the year and the disparity of prices of everything was astounding. We were self catering so eating in most nights. I remember one night I got the doings for dinner, a bottle of whiskey, a bottle of wine, dessert and got change out of £20.

    "Can I get a plastic bag please?"
    "That'll be an extra 5p, is that ok?"

    I worked in a UK office a while back and the tea/coffee wasn't free but it was subsidised. How much was a cup of tea? 25p.


  • #4358
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Is it more expensive to brew beer for Ireland than it is for Romania??

    Yes, considerably.


  • #4359
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Well I look at the price of alcohol here today and compare it to what it was a two generations ago and then I look at Germany where you can buy a 0.5 L beer for 30 c without excessive alcohol abuse and I see there was a serious con going on by the irish gov for a long time.

    Price of off license alcohol is much cheaper now than a generation or two ago.
    Back in the mid 90s a can of beer was approx IR£1.
    Now it can be as low as €1.
    Given the way wages have risen over the 25 years, the can is cheaper in relative terms now.

    Now I don't think it has ever been cheaper than Germany, but equally I believe its cheaper here than in Scandinavia.

    There is no evidence that a European attitude to alcohol is any more healthy than our own either.
    I posted a report here a long time ago that indicated that whereas we tend to die from alcohol related accidents more, mainland Europeans die from alcohol related cancers more.


  • #4360
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,415 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Price of off license alcohol is much cheaper now than a generation or two ago.
    Back in the mid 90s a can of beer was approx IR£1.
    Now it can be as low as €1.
    Given the way wages have risen over the 25 years, the can is cheaper in relative terms now.
    Now I don't think it has ever been cheaper than Germany, but equally I believe its cheaper here than in Scandinavia.

    It's not, if you are talking about supermarkets.

    I've been to LIDL in Copenhagen - alcohol was cheaper than here.
    Pubs in Copenhagen - alcohol more expensive unless 'happy hour'.

    We don't need minimum pricing. Just enforce the laws we already have on drink driving, drunk and disorderly etc

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #4361
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Amirani wrote: »
    Yes, considerably.

    Frankly, that’s nonsense.


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  • #4362
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Frankly, that’s nonsense.

    Its not.

    Wages are significantly higher here than Romania. So everyone from the guy who plants the crops, to the guy who harvests to the guy who drives the finished product to Tesco earn a multiple of his opposite number in Romania. That all increases the price. Then add Vat to everything. Then Duty.


  • #4363
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,134 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Its not.

    Wages are significantly higher here than Romania. So everyone from the guy who plants the crops, to the guy who harvests to the guy who drives the finished product to Tesco earn a multiple of his opposite number in Romania. That all increases the price. Then add Vat to everything. Then Duty.

    manufacturing costs do not account for the price differences between countries. they dont the same product in every country. they make each product in one or two countries and ship it around europe.


  • #4364
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Its not.

    Wages are significantly higher here than Romania. So everyone from the guy who plants the crops, to the guy who harvests to the guy who drives the finished product to Tesco earn a multiple of his opposite number in Romania. That all increases the price. Then add Vat to everything. Then Duty.

    What are you talking about? Can you not read? I wasn’t comparing brewing here and brewing there. I’m talking about mass produced lager which costs the same amount to brew in Holland/Germany/Czechia no matter if they’re sending it to Ireland or Romania or any other country.


  • #4365
    elperello
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,264 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    This link to LIDL Romania shows beers from Germany, Belgium and Italy.


    https://www.lidl.ro/ro/cataloage/revista-disponibila-in-perioada-07-13-09-2020/view/flyer/page/58

    1 EURO = 4.86 LEU


  • #4366
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    San Miguel €1 a litre in Dealz in Spain, a 5% beer, it's a disgrace Joe...
    https://dealz.es/cerveza-san-miguel/


  • #4367
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,215 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    What are you talking about? Can you not read? I wasn’t comparing brewing here and brewing there. I’m talking about mass produced lager which costs the same amount to brew in Holland/Germany/Czechia no matter if they’re sending it to Ireland or Romania or any other country.

    Yes but prices are a product of the market they are sold in. Hence the corner shop charges more for milk than the supermarket because they can, not just because the milk costs more.

    People charge what they believe they can sell the product at. If people don't buy they lower the price, if they buy they raise it.

    Hence why beer increased in price during the lockdown. They knew people would pay. Just like they know, despite all the talk on here, that people will continue to buy if MUP comes in. But it will get rid of the cheaper opposition and increase their per unit sales price.


  • #4368
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,642 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    What are you talking about? Can you not read? I wasn’t comparing brewing here and brewing there. I’m talking about mass produced lager which costs the same amount to brew in Holland/Germany/Czechia no matter if they’re sending it to Ireland or Romania or any other country.

    Tone down the outrage there chief. Sorry i missed the point you were making.

    Duty here is a multiple of Germany/Czechia. Which is why a bottle of Jameson in Jihomoravska costs 13 euro when it costs 27+ here.


  • #4369
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,134 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Is it more expensive to brew beer for Ireland than it is for Romania??
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Yes but prices are a product of the market they are sold in. Hence the corner shop charges more for milk than the supermarket because they can, not just because the milk costs more.

    People charge what they believe they can sell the product at. If people don't buy they lower the price, if they buy they raise it.

    Hence why beer increased in price during the lockdown. They knew people would pay. Just like they know, despite all the talk on here, that people will continue to buy if MUP comes in. But it will get rid of the cheaper opposition and increase their per unit sales price.

    no issue with that at all but this started with weldoninho asking if it was more expensive to brew the same beer for different countries and somebody said it was. It isn't. the brewers have different markups in different markets and the high excise duties here also play a large part.


  • #4370
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Yes but prices are a product of the market they are sold in. Hence the corner shop charges more for milk than the supermarket because they can, not just because the milk costs more.

    People charge what they believe they can sell the product at. If people don't buy they lower the price, if they buy they raise it.

    Hence why beer increased in price during the lockdown. They knew people would pay. Just like they know, despite all the talk on here, that people will continue to buy if MUP comes in. But it will get rid of the cheaper opposition and increase their per unit sales price.

    So it costs the same to produce beer for Ireland or Romania.


  • #4371
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    So it costs the same to produce beer for Ireland or Romania.
    Labour costs are possibly lower over there.

    But beer is very cheap to make. Malting barley is ~ €200 a tonne which will make about 12,000 pints.

    So 1.7c a pint. Give or take.

    But there are other costs too for energy. And hops and labour and packaging and transport and depreciation on equipment. Regardless the actual cost of production is miniscule compared to the the cost in a pub or even supermarket.

    BTW the same is true of cigarettes. The packet costs more to make than the contents.


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  • #4372
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,134 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Labour costs are possibly lower over there.

    But beer is very cheap to make. Malting barley is ~ €200 a tonne which will make about 12,000 pints.

    So 1.7c a pint. Give or take.

    But there are other costs too for energy. And hops and labour and packaging and transport and depreciation on equipment. Regardless the actual cost of production is miniscule compared to the the cost in a pub or even supermarket.

    BTW the same is true of cigarettes. The packet costs more to make than the contents.

    the labour costs in the country in which the beer is made are the only relevant labour costs. if the beer is made in one country and shipped to multiple countries then only the labour cost in the country of production is relevant.


  • #4373
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the labour costs in the country in which the beer is made are the only relevant labour costs. if the beer is made in one country and shipped to multiple countries then only the labour cost in the country of production is relevant.

    In theory yes, but large multinational brewing companies like Heineken, Diago, Anheuser Busch etc tend to operate breweries in many different countries so there may often be the case that two bottles of the exact same product is produced in two very different cost bases.

    For decades Guinness has been brewed in Nigeria for the African market.
    The cost of producing a bottle there is far less than in Dublin or west London.


  • #4374
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 96,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the labour costs in the country in which the beer is made are the only relevant labour costs. if the beer is made in one country and shipped to multiple countries then only the labour cost in the country of production is relevant.
    Beer costs less to make than a can of beans. (more ingredients - after all beer is mostly water , heavier can etc.)

    Check out the cheapest can of kidney beans in your local German discounter.
    To put it on the shelf means half a Kg had to be transported across Europe.

    And if you can't buy four or five cans for a €1 shop around.

    Excluding VAT and Excise and profits it doesn't cost much to put a can on a shelf. Minimum pricing means that apart from the VAT any increase in price is trousered by the supermarket or distributor. And NONE of the price increase goes to the government. So none of the price increase goes to the HSE.


  • #4375
    Eleven Benevolent Elephants
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭Eleven Benevolent Elephants


    I'm glad I homebrew


  • #4376
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,118 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Eleven Benevolent Elephants wrote: »
    I'm glad I homebrew

    Oh, you'll be next on the vintners hit list when MUP doesn't result in the country flocking to the pub.

    They'll probably demand a fleet of homebrew detector vans or something.


  • #4377
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    San Miguel €1 a litre in Dealz in Spain, a 5% beer, it's a disgrace Joe...
    https://dealz.es/cerveza-san-miguel/

    The Spanish must be raging alcoholics


  • #4378
    thesandeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    The Spanish must be raging alcoholics

    It must be aimed at British expats going by the related products in the link.


  • #4379
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,402 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    It's not, if you are talking about supermarkets.

    I've been to LIDL in Copenhagen - alcohol was cheaper than here.
    Pubs in Copenhagen - alcohol more expensive unless 'happy hour'.

    We don't need minimum pricing. Just enforce the laws we already have on drink driving, drunk and disorderly etc

    Danish prices are at two ends of the scale

    Corner shops are cheaper than the cheapest supermarket deals here

    Every bar in the country makes Temple Bar look cheap.

    But that's because service industry staff are paid €20+ an hour. You don't tip in Denmark.


  • #4380
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,780 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Now I don't think it has ever been cheaper than Germany, but equally I believe its cheaper here than in Scandinavia.

    It was only posted a few days ago - here

    Second most expensive alcohol in the EU, we're slightly behind Finland which is 91% above the EU average.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



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  • #4381
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,150 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    L1011 wrote: »
    Danish prices are at two ends of the scale

    Corner shops are cheaper than the cheapest supermarket deals here

    Every bar in the country makes Temple Bar look cheap.

    But that's because service industry staff are paid €20+ an hour. You don't tip in Denmark.

    Well that's not true at all. There are loads of bars in Copenhagen called "Bodegas", really old school divey places, I loved them - but it was only 2 euro or 2.50 for a bottle of Tuborg or local beer in those places. And their Tuborg is 5%!


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