Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

Richard Hillman · 04-09-2020 10:48AM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

You are very close to the truth here, as sinister as it sounds. I think however that it will be all dumped on the publicans to enforce. This might suit some of them too.

I drink for hours at a time, but I cannot see a publican who was fond of me showing me the door after 2 hours, unless he was looking for a good excuse to.

Essentially it's to back up the law of that a pub cannot serve a person who is already intoxicated. If you are drinking for 2 hours, you have probably sunk between 4-5 pints. Then you'll be exceeding the ever reducing level of what is classified as Binge Drinking.

Simon Donnelly has a bee in his bonnet right now. He believes that if we have less alcohol, we'll have less people in A&E, less health issues, improved mental health etc. He may be right too but it's up to society to decide on what type of society we want. Not doctors, media and politicians.

But as you said, it is all Folly. If a pub is happy to entertain me for more than 2 hours they will. Just like the still serve me when I'm drunk.

MrStuffins · 04-09-2020 10:48AM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Noone knows....... Plenty of resteraunts open selling guinness with your meal though....

So a pub selling food changes the nature of the business?

Funny you should say that because...........

hynesie08 wrote: »

Yes, you can also get a pint in the lighthouse cinema and bring it to the movie with you, doesn't make screen 1 a pub

:pac::pac::pac:

US2 · 04-09-2020 10:48AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

You’re missing the point.

The point is that this new requirement will force pubs to make sure everyone who comes into their premises actually order food

It’s not whether Joe soap had a large curry chips with his quarter pounder (greedy effer)

Geddit now?

How will it force pubs to comply ? They can simply write down Mr Stuffins had Nachos with 7 pints when really he may only have had 7 pints ? Delicious tasty pints.

MrStuffins · 04-09-2020 10:50AM

Man Vs ManUre wrote: »

I have grown a huge bushy moustache during this pandemic so I want to go into my local for a creamy pint of Guinness. When will it be open??

Plenty of pubs open out there my man!

I was in the pub last Saturday and had a few delicious Guinness! Going again tomorrow night and planning on the same. I'm getting the goo on me just thinking about those tasty pints!

Your moustache won't know what's hit it!

seamus · 04-09-2020 10:50AM

US2 wrote: »

How will it force pubs to comply ? They can simply write down Mr Stuffins had Nachos with 7 pints when really he may only have had 7 pints ? Delicious tasty pints.

They'll need a receipt for it.

If there's a receipt for it, they'll have to account for it.

That's the problem pubs and restaurants have with this. Usually they'd throw a receipt in the bin if the bill was paid with cash so Revenue need never know it happened.

Paddygreen · 04-09-2020 10:51AM

US2 wrote: »

How will it force pubs to comply ? They can simply write down Mr Stuffins had Nachos with 7 pints when really he may only have had 7 pints ? Delicious tasty pints.

They have to log the customers details. ID checks on all customers will be necessary to keep accurate records.

Dempo1 · 04-09-2020 10:52AM

The more I th about this latest silly hullabaloo, the more I'm being convinced this government uses these flare ups deliberately to deflect from another issue, there's no other explanation for the mind boggling and absolutely stupid approach at times with this government. It's just a chaotic mess, not sure if anyone saw Eamonn Ryan's performance in the Dail yesterday were he was supposed to be taking questions, I was left wondering as I'm sure TD'S were, why o why would he be put forward to handle any questions on government policy, it was cringe enducing stuff, I'm sure TD'S were actually hoping he'd just go a take another nap.

It's just becoming a stream of depressing farce, Michael Martin must be close to doing another full lockdown, not for public health reasons, but to enable him to find a big hole somewhere to hide in for a few weeks.

munchkin_utd · 04-09-2020 10:52AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

An example is a local bar in my area which is Serving drinks to regulars without requiring food to be purchased Not enforcing the 105 min rule Not enforcing social distancing

grand, but whats the point in bringing in a heap of bureaucracy to track food consumption if normal pubs without food will be possibly opened within weeks

the rules should be hygiene related, ensure pods/ spacing/ seated serving etc that can be rolled out to all premises - not obscure revenue related ones.

(maybe its already in there but I gave up on trying to track the legislation, a funky lasagne type construct of layers of legal gloop added and removed over time starting with an act from 1947 - and pickled with Statutory instruments, again all very messy and not followable by a normal person)

L1011 · 04-09-2020 10:53AM

seamus wrote: »

They'll need a receipt for it.

If there's a receipt for it, they'll have to account for it.

That's the problem pubs and restaurants have with this. Usually they'd throw a receipt in the bin if the bill was paid with cash so Revenue need never know it happened.

Its not particularly easy to "throw a receipt in the bin" with a POS system, which basically every single pub in the Dublin area (with one notable exception) uses. Probably different down the sticks; about ten years ago I got the occasional handwritten receipt for food, and once for diesel.

04-09-2020 10:59AM

All this talk about house parties and pubs...

1) If only we had given the same level of attention to the nursing homes. But our CMO Tony was too busy criticizing them for banning visitors back in March. Half of our deaths ended up been in nursing homes.

2) Thousands of cases in meat factories. Are the Garda going in and checking? Is anybody inspecting the working conditions? Did we put temperature checks in place? Make masks mandatory? Lots of actions that could have been taken.

3) Have we stopped flights coming in from hotspot zones? No. Have we done anything to enforce quarantine? Not really.

And yet everyone keeps going on and on about pubs, chicken wings, frozen pizza's, 9 euro meals, receipts for 28 days and so on and on and on...

Surely anyone with the slightest bit of common sense can see that a bit of food doesn't make a f*cking difference!
We are the only country in Europe with pubs closed... why? Are Irish pubs more dangerous than pubs in other countries?

Overly conservative and pedantic nonsense.

IAMAMORON · 04-09-2020 11:00AM

I think arguing over receipt semantics is really trivial.

This leg is just being brought in to firefight the cranks. It will not be enforceable. I mean will it even be real legislation? You are into changing commercial law at this point, that is a lot of legislation over a few scoops if you ask me.

hynesie08 · 04-09-2020 11:00AM

seamus wrote: »

They'll need a receipt for it.

If there's a receipt for it, they'll have to account for it.

That's the problem pubs and restaurants have with this. Usually they'd throw a receipt in the bin if the bill was paid with cash so Revenue need never know it happened.

Right, but if you have a table of 6,how do you keep track of who has what? Even if you split the bill it doesn't have names on it? So do you need another member of staff going around with a clipboard recording everyone's meal? That's just an unnecessary expense for already stretched businesses...

If it's just a case of keeping records, grand, when someone comes in you put their tab number beside their booking, three weeks from now "joe bloggs 2/9 7.30, that was tab #26 that day" it's up on your POS within seconds but an itemised breakdown per person is a ridiculous piece of red tape.....

funnydoggy · 04-09-2020 11:01AM

This whole thing is such a f*cking headache. I don't fancy being a publican right now

seamus · 04-09-2020 11:02AM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

grand, but whats the point in bringing in a heap of bureaucracy to track food consumption if normal pubs without food will be possibly opened within weeks

The point of this is ultimately enforcement of the rules.

So that if a premises is serving alcohol that they are also only doing so as a restaurant and not as a pub. That is, serving alcohol as part of a meal rather than serving alcohol for the sake of having a drink.

Because at the end of the day, premises operating as pubs are not permitted to be open.

Consider how one would enforce this

- Spot checks; Have Gardai rock up in uniform to observe what's happening. Great for auditing lots of premises, but very low detection rates. No way to prove that a patron didn't have a meal and is sitting there finishing their pint.

- Undercover checks; Gardai book a table and ask for a pint without a meal. Very high detection rates, but very low levels of coverage. Much more effort and cost involved.

- Rely on whistleblowers. Very low coverage, practically zero detection of offences.

- Retroactive audits; Check the restaurant records to verify compliance. Low cost, wide coverage, and middle-of-the-road detection rates.

The latter is the obvious choice, but in order to do it, you need to compel restaurants to keep those records.

It should be taken for granted that pubs won't be opening before October.

MrStuffins · 04-09-2020 11:03AM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Right, but if you have a table of 6,how do you keep track of who has what? Even if you split the bill it doesn't have names on it? So do you need another member of staff going around with a clipboard recording everyone's meal? That's just an unnecessary expense for already stretched businesses...

If it's just a case of keeping records, grand, when someone comes in you put their tab number beside their booking, three weeks from now "joe bloggs 2/9 7.30, that was tab #26 that day" it's up on your POS within seconds but an itemised breakdown per person is a ridiculous piece of red tape.....

This has all been solved earlier in the thread lads.

It's a tick-box on the contact tracing form. No big deal!

Dempo1 · 04-09-2020 11:06AM

L1011 wrote: »

Its not particularly easy to "throw a receipt in the bin" with a POS system, which basically every single pub in the Dublin area (with one notable exception) uses. Probably different down the sticks; about ten years ago I got the occasional handwritten receipt for food, and once for diesel.

Have to agree, not withstanding a legal requirement to issue receipts, pubs and restaurants are actually required to maintain proof of sales reports for quite a period for the purposes of revenue audits, also copies of credit/ debit card slips would be retained, not just as an accounting requirement but for common sense reasons.

MOH · 04-09-2020 11:07AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

An example is a local bar in my area which is

Serving drinks to “regulars” without requiring food to be purchased

Not enforcing the 105 min rule

Not enforcing social distancing

I can vouch for that one personally but I’ve heard many similar stories of pubs in Leinster at some craic

And how long have they been open? Since the restaurants reopened over two months ago?

Because if there's all these vast numbers of pubs that are breaking all the rules , and have been since they reopened, then .... so what?

They've been open two months now. We didn't suddenly start seeing a massive spike in numbers two weeks after they reopened. So if they've all been taking the proverbial the whole time, then if anything that's an argument for reopening all the pubs immediately under the current guidelines.
Since you've just pointed out the evidence is already there that this won't cause a spike in cases.

seamus · 04-09-2020 11:08AM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Right, but if you have a table of 6,how do you keep track of who has what? Even if you split the bill it doesn't have names on it? So do you need another member of staff going around with a clipboard recording everyone's meal? That's just an unnecessary expense for already stretched businesses...

The legislation only requires that a record is kept of everything ordered by the party and the contact details of everyone in the party. Looking at it, the interpretation doesn't specifically require that everything is individually attached to a person, merely that a note is made of everything that is ordered.

So they can't just have a receipt for a table of six that says, "Meals: €100". The totality of items ordered by the table must be noted. But you don't have to put a name beside every item.

The purpose here is to ensure that you don't have six people ordering €10 worth of nachos and 20 pints.

Santy2015 · 04-09-2020 11:21AM

#tellstephen

Santy2015 · 04-09-2020 11:21AM

#tellstephen

04-09-2020 11:24AM

Deleted User wrote: »

1) If only we had given the same level of attention to the nursing homes. But our CMO Tony was too busy criticizing them for banning visitors back in March. Half of our deaths ended up been in nursing homes.

Really?

Have you a source for this?

Paddygreen · 04-09-2020 11:29AM

So much Death, I’m terrified. I just wish people would do what they are told by our leadership. It’s soo simple, we just have to stay in it together and hold firm so we can stay safe guys.

Paddygreen · 04-09-2020 11:30AM

CarProblem wrote: »

Really?

Have you a source for this?

His tin foil hat probably.

MOH · 04-09-2020 11:34AM

seamus wrote: »

The point of this is ultimately enforcement of the rules.

Really? Because I thought the point of this is ultimately the restriction of the spread of a serious pandemic.

There were at least two clusters in meat packing plants in what, April? In the 3+ month before the recent clusters closed down three counties, it's astonishing that nobody investigated the root causes of those and implemented measures to ensure there wouldn't be a repeat.
There are still horribly exploited employees covering up symptoms to go into work in order to get paid a basic wage.
Yet instead of doing something about that, the government decided to focus on implementing a ridiculous SI with no obvious significant benefit to public health.

But it all makes a lot more sense if the ultimate point isn't actual slowing covid.

CarProblem wrote: »

Really?

Have you a source for this?

It was widely reported at the time.

Just do a search for "tony holohan nursing homes visits" and restrict it to April 1 or earlier. e.g.:
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/why-has-it-taken-so-long-to-devise-a-covid-19-plan-for-those-in-such-a-vulnerable-situation-39093266.html

Paddygreen wrote: »

His tin foil hat probably.

Do you actually live in this country?

robbiezero · 04-09-2020 11:37AM

seamus wrote: »

The legislation only requires that a record is kept of everything ordered by the party and the contact details of everyone in the party. Looking at it, the interpretation doesn't specifically require that everything is individually attached to a person, merely that a note is made of everything that is ordered.

So they can't just have a receipt for a table of six that says, "Meals: €100". The totality of items ordered by the table must be noted. But you don't have to put a name beside every item.

The purpose here is to ensure that you don't have six people ordering €10 worth of nachos and 20 pints.

Beyond time to get rid of this stupid nonsense.

bladespin · 04-09-2020 11:55AM

CarProblem wrote: »

Really?

Have you a source for this?

He might not be too far off::
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-hse-figures-reveal-the-toll-on-care-homes-1.4264196

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-human-cost-of-covid-19-ireland-s-care-homes-with-the-most-deaths-revealed-1.4264170

reports are a bit dtaed but still, that's a lot.

IAMAMORON · 04-09-2020 12:18PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Essentially it's to back up the law of that a pub cannot serve a person who is already intoxicated. If you are drinking for 2 hours, you have probably sunk between 4-5 pints. Then you'll be exceeding the ever reducing level of what is classified as Binge Drinking.

Simon Donnelly has a bee in his bonnet right now. He believes that if we have less alcohol, we'll have less people in A&E, less health issues, improved mental health etc. He may be right too but it's up to society to decide on what type of society we want. Not doctors, media and politicians.

But as you said, it is all Folly. If a pub is happy to entertain me for more than 2 hours they will. Just like the still serve me when I'm drunk.

All agreed, except maybe on Donnelly, politics aside I think that the dept of health is squeezing for more control on the industry. Donnelly is a head nodding politican, he doesn't really care. But A&E workers in St James's would prefer easier Friday and Saturday nights.

You are not going to solve Irish boozing issues by leaning on the pubs anyway. I can drink twice as much at home and do whatever else I want, I prefer the social aspect of a pub though. Eitherway, I don't think any government should be interfering in the pastimes of its' citizens. Life is for living etc.

Beechwoodspark · 04-09-2020 12:29PM

Donnelly coming across very well on RTÉ news at the moment.

He speaks for the general public and not industry lobbyists like the vintners

ShyMets · 04-09-2020 12:33PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Donnelly coming across very well on RTÉ news at the moment.

He speaks for the general public and not industry lobbyists like the vintners

Are we listening to the same interview. He didn't exactly come across as a Minister on top of his brief

04-09-2020 12:35PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Donnelly coming across very well on RTÉ news at the moment.

He speaks for the general public and not industry lobbyists like the vintners

Donnelly absolutely does not speak for the general public

Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

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