Covid 19 Part XXII-30,360 in ROI(1,781 deaths) 8,035 in NI (568 deaths)(10/09)Read OP

stephenjmcd · 04-09-2020 08:57AM

seamus wrote: »

That's the current requirement - to hold onto contact details for 28 days.

This new measure merely asks them to staple a food receipt to the records that they're already keeping for 28 days.

Definitely too much protesting going on about this. Their problem is that it makes it harder to ignore the legislation or underdeclare your income to Revenue.

According to the restaurant association this morning their being told now its not even to show a receipt, its literally tick a box on the contact sheet to say food was had. Someone tell me how ticking a box makes any difference to how things are now ?

Nobody has a clue what's going on. The communication is woeful yet again

04-09-2020 09:04AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

I take your point. Well made. Just thinking about it though. What percent of people will have a comorbidity by that age? I'd estimate nearly all of them.

There is also the economic argument.

Assuming that the economy will get back to normal is an assumption. A lot of people won't want to take the risk as fun as a few pints are.
Assuming that there are no long term consequences is again just that. It's 8 months old, I'd wait a bit more before pronouncing it's grand.

Our income tax receipts were unchanged because this isn't affecting higher income households.
The US data has shown that it is the higher income earners that are not spending because they don't want to take risks.

Charts such as the above emphasise why progressive taxation is the correct approach. The bottom 20% need to spend all their income to survive, the top don’t. So when they are saving a larger proportion of their income, it’s a signal wealth taxes should be introduced rather than increased income tax as a mechanism to recover the economy

odyssey06 · 04-09-2020 09:05AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

There is also the economic argument.
Assuming that the economy will get back to normal is an assumption. A lot of people won't want to take the risk as fun as a few pints are.
Assuming that there are no long term consequences is again just that. It's 8 months old, I'd wait a bit more before pronouncing it's grand.
Our income tax receipts were unchanged because this isn't affecting higher income households.
The US data has shown that it is the higher income earners that are not spending because they don't want to take risks.

I'd also point out that there will be be a very significant % of such people who won't take the risks even if places, locations re-open.
Companies won't be hosting large christmas parties for their staff.
More people voluntarily working from home means business district shops and coffee shops lose out.

My general point is that regardless of legal restrictions, there will be significant changes in people's behaviour which will have economic impacts.

Roger_007 · 04-09-2020 09:06AM

In relation to all the new regulations which seem to be growing in number by the week, I wonder if anyone in government has given the slightest thought as to how all this regulation is going to be unwound. What are the criteria for the ending of these measures?
For instance, how is it going to be determined when it is ‘safe’ to dispense with the requirement to wear muzzles? Will it be when there are zero cases for 3 months, or 6 months or a year?

caveat emptor · 04-09-2020 09:06AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4AYn6WPfxw

Can we just make this guy Taoiseach

Very good speech. He left out airports. We could be back to normal like all of those countries that have put checks in place and said maybe this year is not a good one to go on holiday.

These cases didn't just magic back into the state.

Widdensushi · 04-09-2020 09:13AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Very good speech. He left out airports. We could be back to normal like all of those countries that have put checks in place and said maybe this year is not a good one to go on holiday.

These cases didn't just magic back into the state.

Tell that to every country that tried that approach and failed

caveat emptor · 04-09-2020 09:13AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Charts such as the above emphasise why progressive taxation is the correct approach. The bottom 20% need to spend all their income to survive, the top don’t. So when they are saving a larger proportion of their income, it’s a signal wealth taxes should be introduced rather than increased income tax as a mechanism to recover the economy

Well not quite. It's those in the higher income brackets that pay for goods and services that then low income jobs are created in. Taxing the **** out of higher income (as has been done to PAYE workers doesn't help).

It's the low income jobs and revenue in the places where high income people live that is affected most. Put simply you can open everything up won't make a bit of difference to people who don't need to expose themselves. The businesses where they spend will still affected. Taxing them won't make them spend. Solve the health crisis , you solve the economic one.

Small businesses in the most affluent ZIP codes — which tend to cater to high-income customers — lost more than 70% of their revenue when COVID- 19 hit, as compared with 30% in the least affluent (low rent) ZIP codes. This pattern is illustrated in the map of New York City in Figure 2 below; businesses on the Upper East Side of Manhattan lost far more revenue than those in Harlem or the Bronx.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/tracker-summary.pdf

boggerman1 · 04-09-2020 09:17AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4AYn6WPfxw

Can we just make this guy Taoiseach

Absolutely bang on the money there.the head on Donnelly while he was being taken to task too

seamus · 04-09-2020 09:17AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

According to the restaurant association this morning their being told now its not even to show a receipt, its literally tick a box on the contact sheet to say food was had. Someone tell me how ticking a box makes any difference to how things are now ?

Nobody has a clue what's going on. The communication is woeful yet again

Did he call it a "box ticking exercise"? Cos the legislation says they need to make a record of what was ordered, not just record that *something* was ordered.

caveat emptor · 04-09-2020 09:19AM

Widdensushi wrote: »

Tell that to every country that tried that approach and failed

Really?
I'd love to go to water park rock concert or a baseball game.

:rolleyes:

Charles Babbage · 04-09-2020 09:26AM

seamus wrote: »

That's the current requirement - to hold onto contact details for 28 days.

This new measure merely asks them to staple a food receipt to the records that they're already keeping for 28 days.

Definitely too much protesting going on about this. Their problem is that it makes it harder to ignore the legislation or underdeclare your income to Revenue.

Well said. You have 12 tables, and 8 things on your menu, so you write Tab 3- 3, 5, 5, 8 and keep it. Any law abiding place would have no problem with this.
And I would involve the Revenue in this, in somewhere following the rules there will be a ratio between food and drink sales

stephenjmcd · 04-09-2020 09:29AM

seamus wrote: »

Did he call it a "box ticking exercise"? Cos the legislation says they need to make a record of what was ordered, not just record that *something* was ordered.

Nope he didn't call it a box ticking exercise. He was on morning Ireland. Will listen back shortly and get the full quote as to the clarification they got last night

04-09-2020 09:30AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Well not quite. It's those in the higher income brackets that pay for goods and services that then low income jobs are created in. Taxing the **** out of higher income (as has been done to PAYE workers doesn't help).

It's the low income jobs and revenue in the places where high income people live that is affected most. Put simply you can open everything up won't make a bit of difference to people who don't need to expose themselves. The businesses where they spend will still affected. Taxing them won't make them spend. Solve the health crisis , you solve the economic one.

That’s why I specifically said wealth tax not income tax. The higher incomes that are not being spent supporting lower paid jobs, so instead of increasing tax on those with little to spare to support those no longer in work, you tax the excess savings of those with wealth, with the outcome that you now have the tax revenue to support the low paid and create inducements for the wealthy to spend or invest their excess thus creating jobs for the low paid

04-09-2020 09:31AM

I think when people say the people in care homes which make up the vast majority of Covid deaths, were on the way out anyway, they are not trying to be unkind or ghastly.

My grandad died in a care home 4 months having arrived. Why did he go in?? because he had fallen at home, left the gas on twice and couldn't really get to the door on time to even answer it. People go to care homes not because they're great places like palm springs, it's because they are at the end of their run so to speak. they are as vulnerable to Covid as a creche full of toddlers to a hard strain of whooping cough.

podgeandrodge · 04-09-2020 09:37AM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Well said. You have 12 tables, and 8 things on your menu, so you write Tab 3- 3, 5, 5, 8 and keep it. Any law abiding place would have no problem with this.
And I would involve the Revenue in this, in somewhere following the rules there will be a ratio between food and drink sales

It doesn't matter though. The food thing is just stupid. Back in March we were told to be all in this together to flatten the curve so that the health services could cope. That's not what this is. It's bollix!

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2020 09:41AM

boggerman1 wrote: »

Absolutely bang on the money there.the head on Donnelly while he was being taken to task too

Christ the world is on its head when I find myself agreeing with every word spoken by M . McNamara.
Great speech.

Boggles · 04-09-2020 09:43AM

rusty cole wrote: »

I think when people say the people in care homes which make up the vast majority of Covid deaths, were on the way out anyway, they are not trying to be unkind or ghastly.

My grandad died in a care home 4 months having arrived.

Sorry for your loss.

But. Did his loved ones have to look in through a window at him as he died, frantically trying to get the attention of a very limited amount of staff members to see if he was okay?

Watch him be double bagged in the clothes he died in and placed in a coffin and then go home and decide which 12 family members can attend his funeral?

odyssey06 · 04-09-2020 09:45AM

rusty cole wrote: »

I think when people say the people in care homes which make up the vast majority of Covid deaths, were on the way out anyway, they are not trying to be unkind or ghastly.
My grandad died in a care home 4 months having arrived. Why did he go in?? because he had fallen at home, left the gas on twice and couldn't really get to the door on time to even answer it. People go to care homes not because they're great places like palm springs, it's because they are at the end of their run so to speak. they are as vulnerable to Covid as a creche full of toddlers to a hard strain of whooping cough.

Some of the choices of words do come across as unkind \ unthinking.
And if you care about such things, the choice of words matter.
And it can be used for a coded way of saying, "so their deaths don't matter."

To me, there's a subtle but important difference between saying someone is "coming to the end of their run" versus "they are at the end of their run [already]".

Sam Russell · 04-09-2020 09:49AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

The new food record rule is one of the most bizarre things I’ve ever seen

What has that got to do with public health?

It is at the level of stupidity.

All they need to do is use the VAT record for the pub/restaurant.

If the purchases for the pub are all frozen pizzas, or no food, then they are clearly not serving food 'of a substantial nature'. If the drink purchases are huge and their food purchases are tiny, then the same. So do not use Gardai, but VAT inspectors.

The new regulations just show the paucity of their imagination.

odyssey06 · 04-09-2020 09:55AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is at the level of stupidity.
All they need to do is use the VAT record for the pub/restaurant.
If the purchases for the pub are all frozen pizzas, or no food, then they are clearly not serving food 'of a substantial nature'. If the drink purchases are huge and their food purchases are tiny, then the same. So do not use Gardai, but VAT inspectors.
The new regulations just show the paucity of their imagination.

I thought about that as well, it would be more effective.
But could there be legal powers element involved
e.g. VAT inspectors being used to enforce public health guidelines?

Remember Revenue wouldn't touch anything to do with water charges.

Charles Babbage · 04-09-2020 10:03AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

It doesn't matter though. The food thing is just stupid. Back in March we were told to be all in this together to flatten the curve so that the health services could cope. That's not what this is. It's bollix!

The numbers are increasing each week, that is not a trend you want and colleges opening and colder weather will only make things worse.

Loafing Oaf · 04-09-2020 10:05AM

rusty cole wrote: »

I think when people say the people in care homes which make up the vast majority of Covid deaths, were on the way out anyway, they are not trying to be unkind or ghastly.

They are not being accurate either. I'm not aware of any country or region where the 'vast majority' of covid deaths have been among care home residents.

Charles Babbage · 04-09-2020 10:07AM

odyssey06 wrote: »

I thought about that as well, it would be more effective.
But could there be legal powers element involved
e.g. VAT inspectors being used to enforce public health guidelines?

Remember Revenue wouldn't touch anything to do with water charges.

The problem with VAT inspection is that the pub would be running for months with little food before you could detect it.

stephenjmcd · 04-09-2020 10:09AM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Nope he didn't call it a box ticking exercise. He was on morning Ireland. Will listen back shortly and get the full quote as to the clarification they got last night

To follow up on this question was asked to Adrian Cummins of the Restaurant Association of Ireland, do restaurants have the ability to implement this requirement ?

The answer was,
"Very simply for your listeners, the print to receipts they can give one to customer and one for their records or in the contact tracing book when a customer comes in the door put down their time of entry and lead person you just put a tick that their having a meal, for me from government information services last night that is what is being required".

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2020 10:10AM

Hilarious people are trashing the pubs/ restaurants when the outbreaks have happened in Direct provision, meat factories and the little matter of people from hot zones allowed to roam the state based on a 'pinkie promise ' to isolate. Even Hogan thought the requirements were a joke. You have to admit incredible deflection by this and the previous government.

DebDynamite · 04-09-2020 10:32AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Hilarious people are trashing the pubs/ restaurants when the outbreaks have happened in Direct provision, meat factories and the little matter of people from hot zones allowed to roam the state based on a 'pinkie promise ' to isolate. Even Hogan thought the requirements were a joke. You have to admit incredible deflection by this and the previous government.

Yep, it seems the cases are coming from places/things that were open all along - international travel, meat factories, etc. Not places like hairdressers or restaurants that were shut for months and then had to wait until later phases to reopen as they were deemed too high risk.

A couple of months after them being open, have there been any clusters or cases of note from hairdressers or beauty salons, or restaurants? And I don’t mean one case where a staff member tested positive and the place closed for a week or two as a precaution.

PmMeUrDogs · 04-09-2020 10:36AM

I have a question if anyone knows the answer?

I have to have an operation in a few weeks (it was cancelled in february due to the virus), and I'll have to have a covid test first, which I understand and don't mind.

Do I need to have this done privately? I can't see my GP referring me when I have no symptoms and am not in contact with anyone who's been infected. I've been seeing on social media that apparently I'll have to pay for this privately and I'm not getting any answers from my GP.

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2020 10:36AM

DebDynamite wrote: »

Yep, it seems the cases are coming from places/things that were open all along - international travel, meat factories, etc. Not places like hairdressers or restaurants that were shut for months and then had to wait until later phases to reopen as they were deemed too high risk.

A couple of months after them being open, have there been any clusters or cases of note from hairdressers or beauty salons, or restaurants? And I don’t mean one case where a staff member tested positive and they place closed for a week or two as a precaution.

If there were clusters and community spread from the places you mentioned, it would be headline news on RTE ever night and the subject of many pages here.

Boggles · 04-09-2020 10:37AM

Arghus wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's the most thought out proposal ever, but the reaction to it is a bit OTT.

Fianna Fáil backbenchers reacted angrily to the new measures, with one TD, Marc MacSharry, describing the moves as “Stasi-esque”.

In a text to Taoiseach Micheál Martin and other senior ministers, Mr MacSharry said: “I appeal for immediate intervention to alter the 'Stasi' guidelines issued to restauranteurs and gastro publicans. This is a step away too far and I appeal to all of you to urgently reverse this authoritarian and unnecessary nonsense.

The biggest issue is the way that things are being done," he said. "The lack of consultation. The sly announcements."

Chief executive of the Vintners Federation of Ireland (VFI), Padraig Cribben, said the rules are "bureaucracy gone mad".

A spokesperson for the Licensed Vintners Association (LVA) described the latest development as “ridiculous”.

“How is it going to help protect public health, knowing what topping was on a customer’s pizza or what way their potatoes were cooked?"

“We believe this a complete overreach. 1984, here we come

Plumbthedepths · 04-09-2020 10:40AM

PmMeUrDogs wrote: »

I have a question if anyone knows the answer?

I have to have an operation in a few weeks (it was cancelled in february due to the virus), and I'll have to have a covid test first, which I understand and don't mind.

Do I need to have this done privately? I can't see my GP referring me when I have no symptoms and am not in contact with anyone who's been infected. I've been seeing on social media that apparently I'll have to pay for this privately and I'm not getting any answers from my GP.

It depends if it is a private or public procedure you are going for, in other words is it being paid by insurance or the public purse

Covid 19 Part XXII-30,360 in ROI(1,781 deaths) 8,035 in NI (568 deaths)(10/09)Read OP

Comments