Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

An Ciarraioch · 02-09-2020 07:52PM

Important speech given by Barnier to the Irish Institute of European Affairs (virtually, of course) - in summary, Brussels is frustrated by the UK attitude to level playing field, fisheries, and state aid, with talks at a stalemate.

https://twitter.com/DanielFerrie/status/1301138874283032576

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 03:43AM

To be honest, I struggle to see this as an "important speech". Barnier says again what he has said many times before.; why should this time of saying it be particularly important? It would be important if he said something different.

I think an appropriat headline would be something like "EU continues not to behave as Brexiters repeatedly assured everyone it would behave, in predictions widely panned at the time as stupid and wrong".
.

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 07:44AM

I'd prefer to have remained in the EU but recent events are exposing it's weaknesses.It's all well and good talking tough with the UK but if you haven't got the bottle to back it up all the tough talking in the world counts for nothing.Combine that with the latest novichok incident and Russia calling EU nations out it's a rough time for them.

McGiver · 03-09-2020 07:49AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'd prefer to have remained in the EU but recent events are exposing it's weaknesses.It's all well and good talking tough with the UK but if you haven't got the bottle to back it up all the tough talking in the world counts for nothing.Combine that with the latest novichok incident and Russia calling EU nations out it's a rough time for them.

What recent events are exposing it's [sic] weakness?

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 08:05AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'd prefer to have remained in the EU but recent events are exposing it's weaknesses.It's all well and good talking tough with the UK but if you haven't got the bottle to back it up all the tough talking in the world counts for nothing.

Note sure what you mean by this? Brexiters whinge that the EU is failing to cave to British resolution, as predicted. The only "bottle" the EU needs is not to cave which, so far, they have consistently done and continue to do.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Combine that with the latest novichok incident and Russia calling EU nations out it's a rough time for them.

Yes. Although the UK flying solo seems to be in an even more parlous situation, afraid to investigate interference in its elections by the Russians lest they discover things that they'd prefer to remain ignorant about.

You might justifiably criticise the EU for being insufficiently robust in standing up to the Russians, but you couldn't reason from that that a benefit of Brexit is separation from the lily-livered EU; Brexit Britain is much more lily-livered, so in this regard (as in so many others) the British are worse off than they would be if they had not Brexited.

fash · 03-09-2020 08:10AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

You might justifiably criticise the EU for being insufficiently robust in standing up to the Russians, but you couldn't reason from that that a benefit of Brexit is separation from the lily-livered EU; Brexit Britain is much more lily-livered, so in this regard (as in so many others) the British are worse off than they would be if they had not Brexited.

Obsequious fawning and doing the bidding of the US (dropping digital tax, preventing introduction of rules to protect food standards), Russia (mentioned), Saudi and mere weak gestures towards China - welcome to British irrelevance.

listermint · 03-09-2020 08:12AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'd prefer to have remained in the EU but recent events are exposing it's weaknesses.It's all well and good talking tough with the UK but if you haven't got the bottle to back it up all the tough talking in the world counts for nothing.Combine that with the latest novichok incident and Russia calling EU nations out it's a rough time for them.

Odd take to have considering the billions of stolen russian people's money swilling around London and it's affiliated Islands.

Reads like you just got off Facebook or a Murdoch owned tabloid. Which was it ?

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 08:19AM

listermint wrote: »

Odd take to have considering the billions of stolen russian people's money swilling around London and it's affiliated Islands.

Reads like you just got off Facebook or a Murdoch owned tabloid. Which was it ?

Don't do Facebook and the only Murdoch rag I know of is the s*n which no one reads here on Merseyside,I can't even bring myself to write its name.
Johnson and his mates are showing themselves up as the empty vessels they are but it seems to me the EU can't handle it when the chips are down.
It's certainly not the way I want things to go,I'm just telling it as I see it.

listermint · 03-09-2020 08:21AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't do Facebook and the only Murdoch rag I know of is the s*n which no one reads here on Merseyside,I can't even bring myself to write its name.
Johnson and his mates are showing themselves up as the empty vessels they are but it seems to me the EU can't handle it when the chips are down.
It's certainly not the way I want things to go,I'm just telling it as I see it.

Handle what. What is it youre on about.

Igotadose · 03-09-2020 08:22AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

To be honest, I struggle to see this as an "important speech". Barnier says again what he has said many times before.; why should this time of saying it be particularly important? It would be important if he said something different.

I think an appropriat headline would be something like "EU continues not to behave as Brexiters repeatedly assured everyone it would behave, in predictions widely panned at the time as stupid and wrong".
.

But, it IS important to remind the public of what's happening. The UK is currently in a typical sh1tshow with the school grading thing, U turning, confused messages on Covid,... Barnier said nothing new, agreed, but regular reminders are good. The fact that he explicitly said that as of today, there will be no financial 'passporting' on 1/1/2021 is important to keep hammering, that should matter to a wider swath of the public than who catches fish where.

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 08:24AM

McGiver wrote: »

What recent events are exposing it's [sic] weakness?

As I said,its all well and good talking tough but if you don't back it up you loose a certain amount of credibility imo.

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 08:25AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't do Facebook and the only Murdoch rag I know of is the s*n which no one reads here on Merseyside,I can't even bring myself to write its name.
Johnson and his mates are showing themselves up as the empty vessels they are but it seems to me the EU can't handle it when the chips are down.
It's certainly not the way I want things to go,I'm just telling it as I see it.

Yeah, but what's the relevance of this in the context of a thread on Brexit? The UK is leaving the EU which is handling this badly so that, on their own, they can handle it much worse?

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 08:27AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

As I said,its all well and good talking tough but if you don't back it up you loose a certain amount of credibility imo.

That's the second time in a few minutes you have made this comment but, despite being asked, you still haven't said how the EU is not backing up it's tough talking in the FTA negotiations.

If you're unwilling or unable to say what you mean, you're probably better off not saying anything at all.

Seth Brundle · 03-09-2020 08:27AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't do Facebook and the only Murdoch rag I know of is the s*n which no one reads here on Merseyside,I can't even bring myself to write its name.
Johnson and his mates are showing themselves up as the empty vessels they are but it seems to me the EU can't handle it when the chips are down.
It's certainly not the way I want things to go,I'm just telling it as I see it.

(I'm tempted to write this as a mod but will hold off for now.)
Will you provide some substance to your claims because all I can see are spurious allegations regarding the EU which are getting a reaction but you have nothing at all behind them?

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 08:29AM

listermint wrote: »

Handle what. What is it youre on about.

Britain appears unmoved by Monsieur Barnier's threats,so much so his normally cool demeanour has slipped and he appears to be floundering somewhat. Russia basically saying to Germany and possibility France 'what are you going to do about it' over the latest novichok incident.All major challenges to the credibility of the EU.They must assert themselves imo.

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 08:33AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

(I'm tempted to write this as a mod but will hold off for now.)
Will you provide some substance to your claims because all I can see are spurious allegations regarding the EU which are getting a reaction but you have nothing at all behind them?

You're threatening me because I've expressed an opinion that the EU isn't handling the situation with the UK well and needs to assert itself?

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 08:39AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain appears unmoved by Monsieur Barnier's threats,so much so his normally cool demeanour has slipped and he appears to be floundering somewhat. Russia basically saying to Germany and possibility France 'what are you going to do about it' over the latest novichok incident.All major challenges to the credibility of the EU.They must assert themselves imo.

I've already pointed out that, on the FTA negotiations, the EU is asserting itself. It is sticking to its guns, as it has done all along. What more do you think it should be doing in response to the UK's position? Be specific.

CelticRambler · 03-09-2020 08:40AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain appears unmoved by Monsieur Barnier's threats,so much so his normally cool demeanour has slipped and he appears to be floundering somewhat.

Threats? What threats? Britain has left the EU. Britain is now seeking a trade deal with the EU. The EU has from now until the end of all eternity to conclude such a deal; the UK has from now until the end of this year. If Barnier's "cool demeanour has slipped" it's probably only a reflection of what the rest of us are thinking (and to paraphrase the title of the other thread on this topic): would ye ever stop wasting our time, just piss off and get on with Brexit.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Russia basically saying to Germany and possibility France 'what are you going to do about it' over the latest novichok incident.All major challenges to the credibility of the EU.They must assert themselves imo.

What did Britain do about the Novichock incident in Salisbury, how long did it take them to respond, and what was the eventual effect on Russia's behaviour? Given that they've "done it again" I would suggest that the problem is Russia's criminality, not the EU's credibility. And why do you single out the EU in this context - what about the US's response/credibility, or that of China, or Australia, or Israel, or South Africa ...? The response of the EU to this particular very recent incident has absolutely nothing to do with the Brexiting UK, where the Russians are still interfering with the economy, and where the democratic process and the British government is doing nothing about it.

Seth Brundle · 03-09-2020 08:49AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

You're threatening me because I've expressed an opinion that the EU isn't handling the situation with the UK well and needs to assert itself?

I havent made any threats. However, as with many if your accusations against there is nothing of substance behind them. It's like many if your posts are simply written to get a reaction.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain appears unmoved by Monsieur Barnier's threats,so much so his normally cool demeanour has slipped and he appears to be floundering somewhat. Russia basically saying to Germany and possibility France 'what are you going to do about it' over the latest novichok incident.All major challenges to the credibility of the EU.They must assert themselves imo.

See what I mean? Nothing of substance to your claims.
It's like you read the Express with your breakfast and then came on here complaining.

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 09:07AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I havent made any threats. However, as with many if your accusations against there is nothing of substance behind them. It's like many if your posts are simply written to get a reaction.

See what I mean? Nothing of substance to your claims.
It's like you read the Express with your breakfast and then came on here complaining.

The majority of posts here are opinion based.If my opinion is that the EU needs to toughen up as it's being perceived as floundering in the face of UK intransigence why should that be construed as just to get a reaction?
I would rather Johnson sh*t himself and agreed terms asap because he realized the EU means business but that's not how it looks.
I avoid the Express as its outlandish headlines are generally nothing to do with reality.
When the UK needed help from its allies,the US and Europe were first in line to help.Rightly or wrongly the hawkish UK(backed by its allies)made the right noises towards Russia.The EU needs to do the same.

fash · 03-09-2020 09:17AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Britain appears unmoved by Monsieur Barnier's threats,so much so his normally cool demeanour has slipped and he appears to be floundering somewhat./quote]
I'd like to see a reference for that - every reasonably unbiased viewer I am aware of considers the UK to be floundering - with their plaintive and peavish complaints that the EU is asking that the UK does what it said it would in the political declaration.

Russia basically saying to Germany and possibility France 'what are you going to do about it' over the latest novichok incident.All major challenges to the credibility of the EU.They must assert themselves imo.

I think the best way for the EU to assert itself would be by crushing the UK then telling Russia that they are next.
But surely the novichok is a bigger challenge to the credibility of"global Britain" given its history of novichok and Russian control of the UK?

Pablo Escobar · 03-09-2020 09:20AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The majority of posts here are opinion based.If my opinion is that the EU needs to toughen up as it's being perceived as floundering in the face of UK intransigence why should that be construed as just to get a reaction?
I would rather Johnson sh*t himself and agreed terms asap because he realized the EU means business but that's not how it looks.
I avoid the Express as its outlandish headlines are generally nothing to do with reality.
When the UK needed help from its allies,the US and Europe were first in line to help.Rightly or wrongly the hawkish UK(backed by its allies)made the right noises towards Russia.The EU needs to do the same.

How can the EU "toughen" up? The EU stance hasn't changed. The EU is working to a mandate. I'm not sure how it can be tougher. You'd struggle to find a consensus in another European country (Ireland included) that would differ from the mandate that the EU is working to.

You're opinions are fine, but the fact is that this is not a major issue for the EU as a whole. The UK is an echo chamber, but nobody besides Ireland can really hear to any extend, nor do they care very much. I don't think that's well understood in the UK.

CelticRambler · 03-09-2020 09:23AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

If my opinion is that the EU needs to toughen up as it's being perceived as floundering in the face of UK intransigence why should that be construed as just to get a reaction?

Because if you're saying it's floundering, you need to tell us the context.

If you're talking about the EU-UK trade deal, then the EU's not floundering: we didn't ask for the trade deal, the UK did; said they were serious about it, so we accommodated their request; and ever since, they've been faffing about like five-year-olds trying to negotiate an extra biscuit before bedtime.

So in what sense, and in what context, is the EU "floundering" - and can you provide any examples to back up your assertion.

johnnyskeleton · 03-09-2020 09:32AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

The majority of posts here are opinion based.If my opinion is that the EU needs to toughen up as it's being perceived as floundering in the face of UK intransigence why should that be construed as just to get a reaction?

Mod note:

Because as per the charter:

Please remember that we are not a blog, a news feed nor an announcement forum - if you are not willing to discuss what you post, then please don't post it. Thread will be locked and posters may face a sanction for repeatedly breaking this rule. This forum is for discussion and debate and we will not tolerate soapboxing. If you are here to "shout everyone down" with your opinions, we will see you as a negative contributor to the forum and will take appropriate action

You are perfectly entitled to express your opinion, even a controversial one. But you are not entitled to repeat that opinion without it being challenged or debated. Here, other posters want to know why you hold that opinion so that they can:

A) understand where you are coming from;

identify any factual information that may influence your opinion and bring it to your attention; and
C) debate thst opinion, and their contrary opinion, with you.

So your opinion is that the EU is floundering. That is probably not a view shared by many here, but it may well be the case. So youre being asked to discuss the facts that lead you to that conclusion.

When the UK needed help from its allies,the US and Europe were first in line to help.Rightly or wrongly the hawkish UK(backed by its allies)made the right noises towards Russia.The EU needs to do the same.

The suspected poisoning of Alexi Navalny is an interesting topic and perhaps worthy of its own thread if you want to start it. If you want to compare the reactions of the UK and Germany (or indeed any different nations) then by all means go ahead. But its not relevant to Brexit and so off topic for this particular thread.

Enzokk · 03-09-2020 09:36AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't do Facebook and the only Murdoch rag I know of is the s*n which no one reads here on Merseyside,I can't even bring myself to write its name.
Johnson and his mates are showing themselves up as the empty vessels they are but it seems to me the EU can't handle it when the chips are down.
It's certainly not the way I want things to go,I'm just telling it as I see it.

I recall you were posting about EU harmony and the Coronavirus bailout and how it would be a challenge for the EU. The EU worked that out, as they will any other challenges. I also struggle to see the point you are trying to make here, other than to get a reaction, which you have.

For someone supposedly in favour of Remain and seeing the benefits of staying in the EU and wishing Brexit didn't happen, you do ape the likes of the Express and Daily Mail and The Sun and the Telegraph a lot in tone and attitude towards the EU.

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 09:36AM

CelticRambler wrote: »

Because if you're saying it's floundering, you need to tell us the context.

If you're talking about the EU-UK trade deal, then the EU's not floundering: we didn't ask for the trade deal, the UK did; said they were serious about it, so we accommodated their request; and ever since, they've been faffing about like five-year-olds trying to negotiate an extra biscuit before bedtime.

So in what sense, and in what context, is the EU "floundering" - and can you provide any examples to back up your assertion.

Looking at brexit headlines(not the Express!)and particularly regarding Monsieur Barnier,he appears unable to deal with the UK stance and has asked for guidance from his masters on what to do.Guaranteed to encourage the brexiteers as it's a potential weakness in the unwieldy negotiating style of the EU imo.

CelticRambler · 03-09-2020 09:49AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Looking at brexit headlines(not the Express!)and particularly regarding Monsieur Barnier,he appears unable to deal with the UK stance and has asked for guidance from his masters on what to do.Guaranteed to encourage the brexiteers as it's a potential weakness in the unwieldy negotiating style of the EU imo.

I'm still in the dark. What headlines? Can you not quote them so we know what you're talking about?

And is it not perfectly reasonable for someone given the task of negotiating a deal with a third party to consult with his "masters" when it's obvious that the other party is a bunch of messers with no apparent intention of being serious in the negotiations?

To look at it from another perspective, the EU27 established a list of key objectives and instructions to give their team of negotiators, and nominated one person to lead that team. The UK, entering the same negotiations, don't seem to have a list, a team, a leader or a clue. Which party is the weaker?

Peregrinus · 03-09-2020 09:56AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Looking at brexit headlines(not the Express!)and particularly regarding Monsieur Barnier,he appears unable to deal with the UK stance and has asked for guidance from his masters on what to do.Guaranteed to encourage the brexiteers as it's a potential weakness in the unwieldy negotiating style of the EU imo.

Are you saying that your opinion is based just on reading headlines in the UK press? Not even the stories under the headlines?

Can you link to, or at least quote, the headlines that have created this impression in your mind?

RobMc59 · 03-09-2020 10:12AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I recall you were posting about EU harmony and the Coronavirus bailout and how it would be a challenge for the EU. The EU worked that out, as they will any other challenges. I also struggle to see the point you are trying to make here, other than to get a reaction, which you have.

For someone supposedly in favour of Remain and seeing the benefits of staying in the EU and wishing Brexit didn't happen, you do ape the likes of the Express and Daily Mail and The Sun and the Telegraph a lot in tone and attitude towards the EU.

It's possible to see the advantages of being in the EU as opposed to not being in it. Criticism of the EU shouldn't result in mass attack.A few more British posters with different views to the general consensus here to encourage healthy debate is a good thing isn't it?If my opinion is that offensive I'm willing to refrain from posting.

Leroy42 · 03-09-2020 10:13AM

Very clearly Barnier is becoming increasingly frustrated by the UK approach to the negotiations. He has given the last 4 years of his professional life to try to achieve, what the UK continually states, a strong relationship with our friends and neighbours, but the UK also continually refuses to do anything to help that relationship develop.

You may recall that the previous line was that nothing was agreed until everything is agreed, but that seemingly has changed to they will only talk about LPF and fishing after everything else has been agreed.

I can totally understand the UK position. THey want to get what they need out of the way, the same way the EU did with the WA, before having to tackle the EU wants, as to do otherwise puts the UK in a very weak position.

Obviously the EU is not just going to hand over their cards though as the UK plan is so obvious. Troughout the process the UK have kept the line that they will walk away at any stage so why would the EU agree to anything on the basis that if they then run into an issue later on the UK will simply walk away? Deal with the main issues to provide a clear basis for future agreement.

I can also understand the EU frustration. In the middle of a pandemic the UK decided not to extend a transition period and thus create this rush to sort all this out and are seemingly, despite wanting the deadline, intent on dragging this out. That is seen to be a real kick in the face by the UK, for nothing but narrow domestic political expediency and the UK now what the EU to solve the mess for them. Things like that are not easily forgotten.

One only has to look at the 12 or 13 u-turns in the last few weeks so see that this is a UK government that is not sure of where it is going and lacks any form of leadership. Givven that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that the same chaos is effecting the trade talks.

Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

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