What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

22-08-2020 01:03PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

As long as people abide by the laws of the land and can earn a living it shouldn’t matter what culture or religion they have.

Which is the high minded logic that got the West into this mess, because it assumes that everyone wants to embrace western values... alas they don't. You're right in that it shouldn't matter, but the further you travel outside of Europe, the greater that those things matter, or rather there will be all manner of factors that are important.

The problem is that people hold to their original cultures, and values. That would be acceptable to most people, except that we're not talking about cultures which share similarities with western culture, but which are subtly different. Those kind of cultures can integrate or co-exist easily, while retaining the differences within the privacy of their homes. The flip side, though, is that there are many cultures which are closer to being direct opposites of western culture and values.

When these people (although there are some exceptions) are allowed entry, they're not seeking to embrace western values. They looking to live by their own values, and will want their culture to have influence over their area.

And this is why your sentence is dangerous.. because it fails to recognise the differences that exist throughout the world, and assumes the arrogance that western values are shared everywhere. They're not.

It would be better if all immigrants would at least have the possibility to marry Irish people and have children with mixed culture households but there will most likely always be religious divisions and cultural divisions that will prevent that in certain cases which is probably where people will not integrate properly over generations and will inevitably give rise to some level of alienation.

Alienation will occur far sooner than that, simply because of the differences in culture and religion. People like to push the idea that everyone should just accept others cultural behaviors, but the simple truth is that a large percentage of Irelands' population has very little direct experience with other cultures, apart from what's seen on the TV (which is rarely accurate). Due to those differences, there will be a hesitancy to completely accept others, especially, as we see conflict arising within the short-medium term... and I'm looking at Irish people here. The same could be said about those foreigners, who will also have very limited experiences of other/different cultures.

The critical point is that the person that won’t integrate into Irish society has to be gainfully employed, because otherwise if a minority does not integrate and falls into poverty there will be an increased risk of mutual resentment between them and Irish people.

Sure, the best way to integrate anyone is through employment, however, as I said before, migrants from many countries who have lower educational standards, tend to end up on the lowest rung of employment, and thus will only associate with other migrants (or a few Irish people). Opportunities for integration will be slim because the vast majority of Irish people have higher educational standards (even if they stopped at leaving cert), and therefore will be in other employment positions.

There has to be a greater movement to encourage integration than simply relying on the passive effects of employment. That's been the traditional way of integration for decades, and it's failed utterly in many European countries.

Jump_In_Jack · 22-08-2020 01:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which is the high minded logic that got the West into this mess, because it assumes that everyone wants to embrace western values... alas they don't.
...
When these people (although there are some exceptions) are allowed entry, they're not seeking to embrace western values. They looking to live by their own values, and will want their culture to have influence over their area.

And this is why your sentence is dangerous.. because it fails to recognise the differences that exist throughout the world, and assumes the arrogance that western values are shared everywhere. They're not.
...

Please allow me to abbreviate your post just to respond to the specific part about danger due to other cultures wanting to exert influence.

I can’t see it being likely that Irish society will be overrun by foreign cultures even many generations from now.

Can you give an example of a danger?

Thanks, and by the way I’ve enjoyed reading many of your contributions so far on this thread, as far back as time would allow to scroll back through the recent posts at least.

TomTomTim · 22-08-2020 02:22PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Can you give an example of a danger?

Please look through the thread, this has been answered many times.

22-08-2020 04:00PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Please allow me to abbreviate your post just to respond to the specific part about danger due to other cultures wanting to exert influence.

I can’t see it being likely that Irish society will be overrun by foreign cultures even many generations from now.

Can you give an example of a danger?

Thanks, and by the way I’ve enjoyed reading many of your contributions so far on this thread, as far back as time would allow to scroll back through the recent posts at least.

The danger is not that Irish culture will be replaced as some like to think. Irish culture will remain, although as is common with those who support multiculturalism, Irish and western culture will be whitewashed (we could say blackwashed too) so that any distinctiveness will be removed.. In any case, in a world where no minority or person should be offended by western culture, we'll see everything become muted.

However, the danger I refer to is the conflict between values, and perception of what is acceptable by society. We've seen how many Muslims in the UK or France weren't able to tolerate the freedoms that western women had, including the manner of their dress and behavior, and so, there were not only gangs, but intimidation directed towards the women. There are areas in France which have been "taken over", and locals have felt intimidated enough that they've left those areas, to move elsewhere.

There will be a clash between values. It's not simply that of Islam, since that's probably the more obvious one. Or the pursuit of FGM which has seen a rise in use, even though it's illegal (which is a cultural behavior across large parts of Africa).

Another risk is the values of many third world cultures towards corruption, crime, and ethics. It's something that tends to be ignored but most 3rd world nations are extremely corrupt. It's not due to economics, since the corruption is ingrained within the culture itself, which may be imported into Ireland or Western nations as the populations of migrants rise.

I could list any number of dangers, but I suspect anyone with a relatively open mind could come up with them, themselves.

The point is that we are told we should accept other cultures, but the sad truth is that, few non-western cultures are, in the least bit accepting themselves of others. We're importing those cultures into Ireland, and we should be aware of the range of conflicts which might arise from their existence here. Not simply pass it off as intolerance by Irish/Western people..

kildare lad · 22-08-2020 05:38PM

TomTomTim wrote: »

Nail on the head. Unless the newly incoming group are willing to give their previous culture away, then chaos will ensue. It simply becomes a game of competing cultures, where one will eventually win. To win of course, there has to be a fight, which greatly reduces social cohesion. Cultures simply can't exist side by side, it goes against the very nature of a functional society. Progressives simply live in la la land, they think themselves so wise and enlightened that they can achieve things that have never been achieved before.

The people who push for immigration are so out of touch with reality . Take Germany or Sweden for example , before mass immigration they would have been heralded as fairly liberal , safe and prosperous countries . Sweden had over a hundred bomb attacks last year

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50339977

And In Germany

https://rmx.news/article/article/germany-proportion-of-crimes-committed-by-migrants-surges-according-to-police-data

Suspects without a German passport committed 35 percent of all crimes in Germany in 2019, which shows those with a migrant background represent a growing proportion of the country's criminals, according to statistics released by the German Criminal Federal Police (BKA).

The crime statistics showed once again that those without a German passport are overrepresented as criminal suspects, with 2019's proportion of foreign suspects showing a rise over last year's figures.

While making up only 12 percent of the population, the proportion of foreigners among criminal suspects was 37 percent. In the case of murder, that proportion was even higher, with nearly 40 percent of suspects listed as "immigrants".

Germany also saw an increase in sexual crimes in 2019, with 8,189 suspects listed as "non-German", representing more than one in three sexual crimes (36 percent).

Of the 699,261 non-German suspects, approximately 38 percent were listed as people "with a migrant background," according to statistics. Non-Germans with German passports made up most of the rest of suspects from that total.

Although overall crime is down in 2019, serious crimes like murder, sexual crimes, and grievous bodily harm all dramatically increased. Many crimes go unreported and according to the report, only 56 percent of crimes are solved, which means many suspects remain unidentified.

Police officers and officials were also increasingly assaulted in 2019, with 31 percent of the suspects listed as immigrants in cases involving resistance or assault on "officials on duty". For assault cases involving "serious bodily harm", 37 percent of suspects were immigrants.

Despite an increase in the proportion of crimes committed by immigrants, Germany's federal government has mandated that officers partake in anti-racism courses.

Past reports have also shown similar alarming statistics. The 2019 "Criminality in the context of immigration" report pointed to a 102 percent increase in the number of Germans who were listed as victims of a crime committed by a member of the immigrant community, which includes all those who entered Germany under the asylum system. For example, in the category of "sexual offenses", 3,261 Germans were victims in sexual crimes featuring an immigrant as the suspect while only 89 immigrants were victims of a German suspect.

So who in their right mind thinks they can improve on German or swedish society by taking in millions of people from Africa . Braindead lefties that's who. The politicians who opened the floodgates should be charged with crimes against the state .

Arthur Daley · 22-08-2020 05:44PM

kildare lad wrote: »

Braindead lefties that's who. The politicians who opened the floodgates should be charged with crimes against the state .

Don't forget most of the migration occurred under a so called 'right wing government' over the last decade. This sheep in wolf's clothing has been fooling a mass of casual voters for a long time.

take everything · 22-08-2020 06:10PM

kildare lad wrote: »

The people who push for immigration are so out of touch with reality . Take Germany or Sweden for example , before mass immigration they would have been heralded as fairly liberal , safe and prosperous countries . Sweden had over a hundred bomb attacks last year

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50339977

And In Germany

https://rmx.news/article/article/germany-proportion-of-crimes-committed-by-migrants-surges-according-to-police-data

Suspects without a German passport committed 35 percent of all crimes in Germany in 2019, which shows those with a migrant background represent a growing proportion of the country's criminals, according to statistics released by the German Criminal Federal Police (BKA).

The crime statistics showed once again that those without a German passport are overrepresented as criminal suspects, with 2019's proportion of foreign suspects showing a rise over last year's figures.

While making up only 12 percent of the population, the proportion of foreigners among criminal suspects was 37 percent. In the case of murder, that proportion was even higher, with nearly 40 percent of suspects listed as "immigrants".

Germany also saw an increase in sexual crimes in 2019, with 8,189 suspects listed as "non-German", representing more than one in three sexual crimes (36 percent).

Of the 699,261 non-German suspects, approximately 38 percent were listed as people "with a migrant background," according to statistics. Non-Germans with German passports made up most of the rest of suspects from that total.

Although overall crime is down in 2019, serious crimes like murder, sexual crimes, and grievous bodily harm all dramatically increased. Many crimes go unreported and according to the report, only 56 percent of crimes are solved, which means many suspects remain unidentified.

Police officers and officials were also increasingly assaulted in 2019, with 31 percent of the suspects listed as immigrants in cases involving resistance or assault on "officials on duty". For assault cases involving "serious bodily harm", 37 percent of suspects were immigrants.

Despite an increase in the proportion of crimes committed by immigrants, Germany's federal government has mandated that officers partake in anti-racism courses.

Past reports have also shown similar alarming statistics. The 2019 "Criminality in the context of immigration" report pointed to a 102 percent increase in the number of Germans who were listed as victims of a crime committed by a member of the immigrant community, which includes all those who entered Germany under the asylum system. For example, in the category of "sexual offenses", 3,261 Germans were victims in sexual crimes featuring an immigrant as the suspect while only 89 immigrants were victims of a German suspect.

So who in their right mind thinks they can improve on German or swedish society by taking in millions of people from Africa . Braindead lefties that's who. The politicians who opened the floodgates should be charged with crimes against the state .

That's insane if those stats are true.
And I'm loath to refute them since you say they are police data.

What I would like to see is the posters on the left deal with those stats and either refute or accept them. Just honestly debate these stats.

And get a feel for where the truth lies.

Bobblehats · 22-08-2020 06:16PM

kildare lad wrote: »

So who in their right mind thinks they can improve on German or swedish society by taking in millions of people from Africa . Braindead lefties that's who. The politicians who opened the floodgates should be charged with crimes against the state .

Anyone who was involved in the process. “I was only doing my job” I imagine them in their senior years being hunted out; like old nazi war criminals when somebody needs to be held accountable. Accusations of eugenics and the like

Mr. Karate · 22-08-2020 06:21PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Can you give an example of a danger?
.

Balbriggan

Beechwoodspark · 22-08-2020 06:24PM

I’m sure the liberal types will disagree but there could well come a day where these scum gang members in balbriggan are rounded up along with mom, pops and granny and deported back to wherever they originally arrived from.

Mr. Karate · 22-08-2020 06:39PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’m sure the liberal types will disagree but there could well come a day where these scum gang members in balbriggan are rounded up along with mom, dad and granny and deported back to wherever they originally arrived from.

Highly unlikely.
1) You fell for the "You don't need a gun. We're the Govt. We'll protect you" lie. And the only thing that's amounted to was making you easier targets for these gangs.

2) Unless there is a serious political shift in Ireland the Govt officials don't have the courage and the will to do it. Plus Gardai would rather harass us about how many are in our homes then stop these scumbags. And then there's the bleeding hearts judges that keep letting them off. The Irish need to rid their Country of more than just scumbags from the 3rd World. They need to rid themselves of the Cowards and Traitors in Govt.

Beechwoodspark · 22-08-2020 07:02PM

Oh don’t get me wrong I agree that none of the below will ever do anything

Ff fg labour sf soc Dems greens or any of the left wing groupings

But there ARE alternatives to them on the political scene now and if the balbriggan scenario is repeated and gets even worse then who knows what will happen

Mr. Karate · 22-08-2020 07:15PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Oh don’t get me wrong I agree that none of the below will ever do anything

Ff fg labour sf soc Dems greens or any of the left wing groupings

But there ARE alternatives to them on the political scene now and if the balbriggan scenario is repeated and gets even worse then who knows what will happen

The Irish are going to have to develop survival instincts if they want to survive and keep their homeland.

I voted for the Renua and Irish Freedom Party candidates this past election. Screw the FF/FG/SF/PBP/Greens Globalist shills.

kildare lad · 22-08-2020 07:38PM

take everything wrote: »

That's insane if those stats are true.
And I'm loath to refute them since you say they are police data.

What I would like to see is the posters on the left deal with those stats and either refute or accept them. Just honestly debate these stats.

And get a feel for where the truth lies.

It's feelings over stats and facts for lefties

22-08-2020 09:22PM

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Don't forget most of the migration occurred under a so called 'right wing government' over the last decade. This sheep in wolf's clothing has been fooling a mass of casual voters for a long time.

The problem with modern governments is that they don't hold to whatever "side" they supposedly belong to. Western governments due to the political system are decidedly short term in their planning (just their term of office), and the moment they enter office, they're thinking of the next election. Which means that they're intent on pandering for votes.

The issue though is that the electorate is often even more short sighted than the politicians, and so we see a lot of virtue signalling without real comprehension of what will follow. Again, short term views... and we also live in a world where experts are everywhere, and people would rather listen to experts than research matters themselves.

If you look at any political party that gains power, they will show a smattering of their "sides" policies, but they'll also play both sides in the effort to acquire votes, hoping to pull allegiances away from traditional voting districts.

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the idea of European governments having been right winged, because the meaning of being right has shifted so much. In elections they're on the right, but in government, they're far more central.

22-08-2020 09:26PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’m sure the liberal types will disagree but there could well come a day where these scum gang members in balbriggan are rounded up along with mom, pops and granny and deported back to wherever they originally arrived from.

I'm not a "liberal" type and I disagree. They won't be deported. They're here to stay because they've gained citizenship, or been here long enough to essentially be guaranteed it.

There isn't the will to deport en mass, those who have already arrived. Simply put, we have to deal with the crock of crap we have now... and deportations won't be on the table. Personally, I feel that we need to get our own house in order. The migrants here are part of that house now. Which means, finding a way to deal with "feral" or disorderly youths whether they be Irish or "new Irish".

kildare lad · 23-08-2020 07:53AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not a "liberal" type and I disagree. They won't be deported. They're here to stay because they've gained citizenship, or been here long enough to essentially be guaranteed it.

There isn't the will to deport en mass, those who have already arrived. Simply put, we have to deal with the crock of crap we have now... and deportations won't be on the table. Personally, I feel that we need to get our own house in order. The migrants here are part of that house now. Which means, finding a way to deal with "feral" or disorderly youths whether they be Irish or "new Irish".

Remove their parents from homes and stick them in direct provisions . Cut off all welfare money and give the houses that they are living in to people who actually care want their children behave like . It must be hard if you lived in balbriggan and see all these thugs turn your town into a sh*thole

23-08-2020 08:25AM

kildare lad wrote: »

Remove their parents from homes and stick them in direct provisions . Cut off all welfare money and give the houses that they are living in to people who actually care want their children behave like . It must be hard if you lived in balbriggan and see all these thugs turn your town into a sh*thole

I'd prefer measures to provide all current and prospective parents with training in how to be effective parents, and a legal requirement for parents to spend a certain amount of time with their children. I'd also like to see a curfew for teens. Anyone past teen/childhood who behaves that way, sure, cut off their welfare, ship them off to some isolated spot in Kerry, and make them work in a menial labor job for 6 months.

For me, each time I've returned to Ireland I've seen more and more articles or references to Irish teens behaving this way, and I'd like to see a move for Ireland back towards community driven society, and better parenting. A government that supports parents and provides them with the aid they need to bring their children under control. Again, irrespective of whether they're Irish or New Irish.

Jump_In_Jack · 23-08-2020 09:41AM

What exactly has failed in Balbriggan?
I don’t know the area.
Was there a political decision made to house a lot of African immigrants in one small housing development presumably with little effort to provide safe places to socialise in a civilised manner.

For example are there green areas to play ball games, youth clubs to hang out in supervised groups, activities to keep teens on the right path to being an adult that will contribute to society.

Also, are these issues solely about teenagers or are there adult gangs involved?
And where is the influence coming from to set up gangs, is it the media or is there a presence from gangs from other countries?

MickeyLeari · 23-08-2020 09:43AM

I agree with it.

Arthur Daley · 23-08-2020 11:16AM

It's never about taking personal responsibility whether you are 32, 22 or 10. It's always someone else didn't provide me with enough sports grounds or some outside bogeyman influences me.

We're sick and tired of listening to excuses and dictates. Life is a struggle, we're all out of sympathy, we've done more than enough, and have other issues to deal with.

Yellow_Fern · 23-08-2020 11:16AM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

What exactly has failed in Balbriggan?
I don’t know the area.
Was there a political decision made to house a lot of African immigrants in one small housing development presumably with little effort to provide safe places to socialise in a civilised manner.

For example are there green areas to play ball games, youth clubs to hang out in supervised groups, activities to keep teens on the right path to being an adult that will contribute to society.

Also, are these issues solely about teenagers or are there adult gangs involved?
And where is the influence coming from to set up gangs, is it the media or is there a presence from gangs from other countries?

I dont know a lot about Balbriggan but if you look at African-Irish performance in national metrics like prison figures, unemployment, and school test scores, you have serious lagging behind and I find that very worrying. That doesnt mean they do worse than Travellers etc or what everyother group but it is still worrying.

olestoepoke · 23-08-2020 03:11PM

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

What exactly has failed in Balbriggan?
I don’t know the area.
Was there a political decision made to house a lot of African immigrants in one small housing development presumably with little effort to provide safe places to socialise in a civilised manner.

For example are there green areas to play ball games, youth clubs to hang out in supervised groups, activities to keep teens on the right path to being an adult that will contribute to society.

Also, are these issues solely about teenagers or are there adult gangs involved?
And where is the influence coming from to set up gangs, is it the media or is there a presence from gangs from other countries?

I live in Balbriggan. The towns proximity to mosney direct provision centre was a factor in the over population of African immigrants. Also, residents in Balbriggan were not required to sign on for social welfare payments as often as other parts of the community. The majority of the trouble is in and around the Dunnes stores area of the town which is a suburb of the Main Street. A lot of houses are rented in this area and it has a high concentration of "new Irish" mostly from Africa.
Regarding integration, Balbriggan is a great town for sports and clubs. There is numerous recreational facilities and parks. Some African families do take part in soccer and GAA but compared to how many live here they aren't well represented. A recent video appeared of African youths fighting near Dunnes where a 19 year old was stabbed. The video went on for about 10 minutes or longer and no sign of the Garda. The Garda station is about a one minute drive from this location. I personally think the Garda are afraid to intervene.

olestoepoke · 23-08-2020 03:24PM

Slowyourrole wrote: »

would you live in any of those places? Would you happy with the rights you had if you did?

so what do you suggest? We accept everyone and anyone from countries that aren't nice to live in? The island is not big enough.

enricoh · 23-08-2020 03:58PM

Here's a case oleospoke where the cops interviened outside the cop shop, n got a beating for their trouble. Someone even tried to get the detectives gun.
Not much mention of it in the media unsurprisingly
The problem is there is always 20 or 30 of them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-cleared-over-gang-attack-on-garda-detectives-outside-station-1012125.html

olestoepoke · 23-08-2020 04:31PM

enricoh wrote: »

Here's a case oleospoke where the cops interviened outside the cop shop, n got a beating for their trouble. Someone even tried to get the detectives gun.
Not much mention of it in the media unsurprisingly
The problem is there is always 20 or 30 of them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.breakingnews.ie/ireland/two-cleared-over-gang-attack-on-garda-detectives-outside-station-1012125.html

A scary situation for Garda and even worse for the many good families of all ethnicities that live there. The mainstream media are very careful when reporting this, never a mention of African gangs.

Beechwoodspark · 23-08-2020 04:33PM

Had a conversation earlier with someone i have a professional relationship with, who is a long time balbriggan resident and indeed runs business there.

He told me a number of things which I don’t want to put up here as I personally can’t provide proof although I would believe him 100%

Just to say a few more general things

- balbriggan was and is a great town with a great community. But there is huge anger among locals regarding how their once fantastic town has evolved

-huge anger and disillusionment with local councilors and TDs in general

-a feeling that their absolutely legitimate concerns have been dismissed or else falsly labelled ignorant racism by NGOs who have no knowledge of the situation

-a clear agenda by some politicians to bury the problems -head in the sand approach is how he put it.

-the guards have not exactly covered themselves in glory either.

A sense of abandonment almost but he said to me there could well be reluctance in guarda management to effectively deal with what has become an inconveniet embarrassing problem.

Bobblehats · 23-08-2020 04:49PM

olestoepoke wrote: »

so what do you suggest? We accept everyone and anyone from countries that aren't nice to live in? The island is not big enough.

And even if it was, it’s still not big enough. If you git what i’m sayin’

TheBlackPill · 23-08-2020 05:02PM

the best model is multiracial but monocultural. We all should subscribe to the same values and those that don't, leave

23-08-2020 05:13PM

Arthur Daley wrote: »

It's never about taking personal responsibility whether you are 32, 22 or 10. It's always someone else didn't provide me with enough sports grounds or some outside bogeyman influences me.

We're sick and tired of listening to excuses and dictates. Life is a struggle, we're all out of sympathy, we've done more than enough, and have other issues to deal with.

I get what you're saying and I would agree that everyone should be responsible for their own lives and, perhaps, more importantly, their choices in life. There are too many excuses being bandied around these days to avoid taking responsibility for the errors in judgment, or mistakes that people have done.

However,

, society does factor into all of this. We live in a nation, which (usually) has a government, and rules by which we are supposed to follow. And for the most part, people do abide by those rules, because they believe that by being part of the nation their lives will improve. There is a bond between the State, Society and people.

The thing is that over the last thirty years, Ireland has become far more regulated than it ever was before. Sure, the 50s of Ireland was quite controlled for how people could behave, but for the most part, these were unspoken cultural boundaries by which people lived by, for various reasons. Now, we have far more laws, and regulations to 'guide' people regarding their behavior, and while some people manage to skip past these rules, most of us have to live with them. (Nanny State)

The point I'm (probably) failing to make clear is that some responsibility for the state of our society rests with society itself. The points I made earlier regarding parenting reflect this. Or any number of other points I've made over the last three pages. Society has it's own responsibility to provide an effective environment for us to develop within, because society and the State have decided to step in with all those laws to regulate our behavior. Which is why I keep pointing at society to deal with the problems we have with feral youths, or migrant issues.

Personal responsibility should be a given. Alas, we do live in a society where people are very quick to pass that responsibility on to external factors. Just as there's a sense of entitlement about what people should have or experience in their lives.

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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