What Covid laws were broken in Clifden?

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 3:32pm #1

Since lockdown began the government have issued a whole sweeping range of guidelines and advisories but since the emergency legislation expired in May what actual laws are in existence?

While I understand that the guidelines are there for a reason and everyone has a responsibility to each other to stay safe, I'd really like to know what laws or statutes are in place to stop reckless behaviour. From what I can see, the answer is that the Guards are virtually powerless to enforce any of the guidelines. The Guards can only act within the law and I can't see any specific laws to back up the guidelines. There is simply no legislation to back them up.

For example, if I was a pub owner and decided to just open up my pub to the public again, didn't bother putting any safeguards in place, what power do the Guards have to shut me down. They can object to the licence again when it's due for renewal but only a judge can decide whether or not to grant it.

So if I'm missing specific legislation, will someone please point it out to me because in my opinion it doesn't really exist.

Sam Quentin · 22-08-2020 3:37pm

Just human decency 'laws'

Mysterypunter · 22-08-2020 3:38pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Since lockdown began the government have issued a whole sweeping range of guidelines and advisories but since the emergency legislation expired in May what actual laws are in existence?

While I understand that the guidelines are there for a reason and everyone has a responsibility to each other to stay safe, I'd really like to know what laws or statutes are in place to stop reckless behaviour. From what I can see, the answer is that the Guards are virtually powerless to enforce any of the guidelines. The Guards can only act within the law and I can't see any specific laws to back up the guidelines. There is simply no legislation to back them up.

For example, if I was a pub owner and decided to just open up my pub to the public again, didn't bother putting any safeguards in place, what power do the Guards have to shut me down. They can object to the licence again when it's due for renewal but only a judge can decide whether or not to grant it.

So if I'm missing specific legislation, will someone please point it out to me because in my opinion it doesn't really exist.

The 81 people exceeded the limit of 50, and they tried to pass it off as two gatherings, one of 45 and one of 36, divided by a partition, which is like you living in a kitchen, and me living in a sitting room, but claiming we are in separate accommodation because of the dividing wall.

PhilOssophy · 22-08-2020 3:40pm

Tables were also supposed to be limited to 6 people or something.
Also, some of those who attended came from counties under lockdown, even Phil Hogan is dubious in this regard.

Signore Fancy Pants · 22-08-2020 3:43pm

It was meant to be an elitest swingers party dubbed as a "golf gala".

Aul lads banging their balls into well worn dirty holes.

No masks nor nothin'.

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 3:48pm

Mysterypunter wrote: »

The 81 people exceeded the limit of 50, and they tried to pass it off as two gatherings, one of 45 and one of 36, divided by a partition, which is like you living in a kitchen, and me living in a sitting room, but claiming we are in separate accommodation because of the dividing wall.

But 50 people is only a guideline, it's not breaking the law. From what I can see, it's possible the organiser of the event might be in bother but there don't seem to be any laws surrounding any of the other breaches

Badly Drunk Boy · 22-08-2020 3:49pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Tables were also supposed to be limited to 6 people or something.
Also, some of those who attended came from counties under lockdown, even Phil Hogan is dubious in this regard.

Yeah, Phil Hogan had been staying in Kildare until August the 5th or something, then went to Dublin where he was tested for Covid, and then returned to his native Kilkenny. He probably orchestrated it that way so he could go to Clifden, his way of escaping Kildare.

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 3:49pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Tables were also supposed to be limited to 6 people or something.
Also, some of those who attended came from counties under lockdown, even Phil Hogan is dubious in this regard.

All true, but no laws were broken

PhilOssophy · 22-08-2020 3:51pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

All true, but no laws were broken

Well I think you could be fined up to 3k if you travelled outside your county? No?

Gatling · 22-08-2020 3:51pm

Might be wise to ask the several thousand in Dublin currently protesting about wearing masks what laws are being broken

rtron · 22-08-2020 3:52pm

I'd say they should have stopped serving at 11pm aswell? I heard reports the event went on until 4am.

Rock77 · 22-08-2020 3:52pm

Mysterypunter wrote: »

The 81 people exceeded the limit of 50, and they tried to pass it off as two gatherings, one of 45 and one of 36, divided by a partition, which is like you living in a kitchen, and me living in a sitting room, but claiming we are in separate accommodation because of the dividing wall.

Was this golf event not after the current restrictions were put in place? If so my understanding is only weddings can have 50 people indoors.. everything else is only 6 people indoors.. or am I mistaken?

Gatling · 22-08-2020 3:53pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Well I think you could be fined up to 3k if you travelled outside your county? No?

But people from Kildare have been free to travel anywhere they wanted if they said they were going to work ,
I had to drop one of my co workers home the other day to Kildare from dublin didn't see any checkpoints or increase Garda presence up and back

An Ri rua · 22-08-2020 3:58pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Since lockdown began the government have issued a whole sweeping range of guidelines and advisories but since the emergency legislation expired in May what actual laws are in existence?

While I understand that the guidelines are there for a reason and everyone has a responsibility to each other to stay safe, I'd really like to know what laws or statutes are in place to stop reckless behaviour. From what I can see, the answer is that the Guards are virtually powerless to enforce any of the guidelines. The Guards can only act within the law and I can't see any specific laws to back up the guidelines. There is simply no legislation to back them up.

For example, if I was a pub owner and decided to just open up my pub to the public again, didn't bother putting any safeguards in place, what power do the Guards have to shut me down. They can object to the licence again when it's due for renewal but only a judge can decide whether or not to grant it.

So if I'm missing specific legislation, will someone please point it out to me because in my opinion it doesn't really exist.

Thou shalt not be a hypocritical politician was one. The other notable one was thou shalt not abuse the compliant tolerant nature of your voting public.

Necro · 22-08-2020 4:13pm

Mod:

Moving to Coronavirus Forum, reminder to read the charter before posting

PhilOssophy · 22-08-2020 4:14pm

Gatling wrote: »

But people from Kildare have been free to travel anywhere they wanted if they said they were going to work ,
I had to drop one of my co workers home the other day to Kildare from dublin didn't see any checkpoints or increase Garda presence up and back

Yep, you can also speed on the way and you might not be fined, same logic!

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:18pm

Rock77 wrote: »

Was this golf event not after the current restrictions were put in place? If so my understanding is only weddings can have 50 people indoors.. everything else is only 6 people indoors.. or am I mistaken?

Again, these are only guidelines. If a hotel decides to host a wedding for 500 people, while it may be against the guidelines, it's not against the law

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:19pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Well I think you could be fined up to 3k if you travelled outside your county? No?

This was part of the emergency legislation which ended back in May

Mysterypunter · 22-08-2020 4:22pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Again, these are only guidelines. If a hotel decides to host a wedding for 500 people, while it may be against the guidelines, it's not against the law

But are there any laws regarding covid, or are there only guidelines and suggestions, our government has not passed many laws since they were formed, but have they passed any covid ones.

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:25pm

Mysterypunter wrote: »

But are there any laws regarding covid, or are there only guidelines and suggestions, our government has not passed many laws since they were formed, but have they passed any covid ones.

They passed emergency law back in late March, those lads ended on the 18th of May. Since then, no new laws that I know of have been introduced. We are free to move where we wish, when we wish and how we wish. Businesses are also free to operate as they wish because there are no laws against it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that we do any of the above but the Guards don't have any power to stop is. It's that simple

Lolle06 · 22-08-2020 4:25pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Again, these are only guidelines. If a hotel decides to host a wedding for 500 people, while it may be against the guidelines, it's not against the law

Does that mean that nobody has to adhere to the ‘guidelines’ now ?

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:26pm

Lolle06 wrote: »

Does that mean that nobody has to adhere to the ‘guidelines’ now ?

Exactly, by law, nobody has to adhere to the guidelines.

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:28pm

Lolle06 wrote: »

Does that mean that nobody has to adhere to the ‘guidelines’ now ?

Of course it's not wise to disregard the guidelines but the Guards don't have any powers to restrict movement, end house parties, break up large groups. They have no powers under the health act and as far as i know are solely relying on their powers under the public order act.

Lolle06 · 22-08-2020 4:29pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Exactly, by law, nobody has to adhere to the guidelines.

Ah, now that makes their actions totally acceptable in the middle of a pandemic... they didn’t break the law after all, they just didn’t adhere to the ‘government guidelines’. Aren’t they all great role models!

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:30pm

Lolle06 wrote: »

Ah, now that makes their actions totally acceptable in the middle of a pandemic... they didn’t break the law after all, they just didn’t adhere to the ‘government guidelines’. Aren’t they all great role models!

Yep, it's a shambles but not a single one of them can be prosecuted for anything.

Water John · 22-08-2020 4:33pm

Those present just proved they're too stupid to hold public office. No law was broken.

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 4:34pm

Water John wrote: »

Those present just proved they're too stupid to hold public office. No law was broken.

I'd say it's stupidity and arrogance in equal measure.

Lolle06 · 22-08-2020 4:43pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Yep, it's a shambles but not a single one of them can be prosecuted for anything.

That doesn’t matter though! We don’t want these ppl in prison - we want them out of the government positions they are holding, b/c they clearly don’t give a ... about the people of Ireland and their efforts and sacrifices in this pandemic!

If one of them ever has the neck to blame ´Joe Soap’ about not sticking to their guidelines, or their motto ‘we are all in this together’, I am going to combust. And I am surely not the only one...

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 5:19pm

Lolle06 wrote: »

That doesn’t matter though! We don’t want these ppl in prison - we want them out of the government positions they are holding, b/c they clearly don’t give a ... about the people of Ireland and their efforts and sacrifices in this pandemic!

If one of them ever has the neck to blame ´Joe Soap’ about not sticking to their guidelines, or their motto ‘we are all in this together’, I am going to combust. And I am surely not the only one...

I hear you. These people are the legislators who should be introducing laws but sure I suppose it's against their own interests to make their very acts illegal.

leanin2019 · 22-08-2020 5:35pm

Statutory Instruments related to the COVID-19 pandemic

The above are the laws. Most recent ones are the three counties legislation.

Infernal Racket the OP is right tho. Some stuff is law other things are just guidance

I combined the above linked documents into one file. See attached

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 5:40pm

leanin2019 wrote: »

Statutory Instruments related to the COVID-19 pandemic

The above are the laws. Most recent ones are the three counties legislation.

Infernal Racket the OP is right tho. Some stuff is law other things are just guidance

I combined the above linked documents into one file. See attached

On page 6 of that document it states that the regulations will only be in effect until the 12th of April 2020. To my knowledge, they haven't been renewed and are therefore null and void. It's all so unclear what can actually be enforced and what cant.

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 5:47pm

leanin2019 wrote: »

Statutory Instruments related to the COVID-19 pandemic

The above are the laws. Most recent ones are the three counties legislation.

Infernal Racket the OP is right tho. Some stuff is law other things are just guidance

I combined the above linked documents into one file. See attached

And having looked through some of the other statutory instruments which are in effect, they have no penalties attached so what are the Guards to do if somebody breaches the laws?

leanin2019 · 22-08-2020 5:49pm

Infernal Racket wrote: »

On page 6 of that document it states that the regulations will only be in effect until the 12th of April 2020. To my knowledge, they haven't been renewed and are therefore null and void. It's all so unclear what can actually be enforced and what cant.

Thats a combined file of all the legislation from the link I posted.

Scroll down and you'll see the legislation is extended I think by the replacement of the date, remember it was extended to after May Bank Holiday and then after June Bank Holiday.

But it might be null and void now havent checked.

I haven't analysed it all but from memory the Face covering legislation is still valid I think and the three counties was at least until last night, probably an update due to that in order to extend the Kildare restrictions...?

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 5:54pm

leanin2019 wrote: »

Thats a combined file of all the legislation from the link I posted.

Scroll down and you'll see the legislation is extended I think by the replacement of the date, remember it was extended to after May Bank Holiday and then after June Bank Holiday.

But it might be null and void now havent checked.

I haven't analysed it all but from memory the Face covering legislation is still valid I think and the three counties was at least until last night, probably an update due to that in order to extend the Kildare restrictions...?

Yeah, I see some of them are extended alright but without any penalties attached I just don't see how any of the legislation can be enforced. It's all just a big ****in mess that nobody seems able to tackle

Concretejungle · 22-08-2020 6:40pm

It's not about breaking the law it's about a politician who is paid by us to advise us what to do and then he goes and does the opposite himself. So how can we have confidence in him again and if we can't have confidence in him then he should not be holding that position.

paddy19 · 22-08-2020 6:48pm

The likely potential offence is organising an event which is a penal provision for the purposes of section 31A of the Act of 1947.

Restriction on events
5. (1) Subject to paragraph (2), a person shall not organise, or cause to be organised, an event for cultural, entertainment, recreational, sporting, social, community or educational reasons in a relevant geographical location other than where one or more of the following applies:
(a) in the case of an indoor event, the maximum number of persons attending, or proposed to attend, the event (for whatever reason) does not exceed 50 persons;
(b) in the case of an outdoor event, the maximum number of persons attending, or proposed to attend, the event (for whatever reason) does not exceed 200 persons;
(c) the person so organising, or so causing to be organised, the event takes all reasonable steps to ensure that the number of persons attending, or proposed to attend, the event (for whatever reason) does not exceed, in the case of an indoor event, 50 persons, and in the case of an outdoor event, 200 persons.

It is difficult to see how splitting the event in two rooms has an legitimacy as defence under the act.
It is hard to see how this was not one single event under the act.
If the hotel had two weddings it could make a case.

Water John · 22-08-2020 9:13pm

Big Phil is asked to consider his position by MM & LV. He will, like fcuk.

PhilOssophy · 22-08-2020 9:18pm

Water John wrote: »

Big Phil is asked to consider his position by MM & LV. He will, like fcuk.

I laugh at people saying how crucial he is to the Brexit negotiations. If he wasn't clever enough to not go to that event, I want him nowhere near the Brexit negotiations!

Infernal Racket · 22-08-2020 10:24pm

Water John wrote: »

Big Phil is asked to consider his position by MM & LV. He will, like fcuk.

Big Phil has a neck like a jockeys bollix, he will not step aside no way no how..

Geuze · 23-08-2020 12:04am

Mysterypunter wrote: »

The 81 people exceeded the limit of 50, and they tried to pass it off as two gatherings, one of 45 and one of 36, divided by a partition, which is like you living in a kitchen, and me living in a sitting room, but claiming we are in separate accommodation because of the dividing wall.

So it's the limit of 50 that is the rule that was broken?

Does that mean that there should not be more than 50 in any outlet serving food?

Does that mean that large food-led pubs like the King's Head / Busker Brownes, etc. in Galway, or other large pubs, all face a max customers of 50?

SweetCaliber · 23-08-2020 12:36am

Geuze wrote: »

So it's the limit of 50 that is the rule that was broken?

Does that mean that there should not be more than 50 in any outlet serving food?

Does that mean that large food-led pubs like the King's Head / Busker Brownes, etc. in Galway, or other large pubs, all face a max customers of 50?

I don't think a restaurant serving food to the general public would be classed as an event. Just like retail stores don't have to limit customers to 50.

This however was a planned event.

in the case of an indoor event, the maximum number of persons attending, or proposed to attend, the event (for whatever reason) does not exceed 50 persons;

In fact its covered here that in restaurants there can be no more than 6 at a table and that events, parties, gatherings of more than 6 people indoor or 15 outdoor are not allowed in such settings:

Restaurants and cafes can remain open but must follow additional public health measures:

they must close to the public by 11.30pm

face coverings must be worn by staff in customer facing roles where no other protective measures are in place e.g. protective screens and where physical distancing of 2 metres is not possible. They must also be worn by customers when arriving to and leaving their table

businesses should keep contact details of all customers to help with contact tracing should a customer be confirmed as having COVID-19

table service must be provided and customers should not be allowed sit at the bar

there should be a maximum of six people from no more than 3 households allowed at a table

events, parties or gatherings of more than 6 people indoors or 15 people outdoors are not allowed in these settings

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cf9b0d-new-public-health-measures-effective-now-to-prevent-further-spread-o/

When you think about it, the 50 people limit is for weddings only, so in reality there should have been a maximum of 6 people at the golf gala, or if they held it outdoors 15 people maximum.

A lot of people seem to forget that its not about if they broke the laws or not. Nobody wants to see them in prison. But these are the people that are supposed to be leading us, and they blatantly disregarded the guidelines that they knew well.

How can they expect us to continue to support and trust them if they cant follow their own bloody guidelines?

Geuze · 23-08-2020 1:14am

Thanks.

So 60 people made up of say 20 tables can be in a regular pub/restaurant, in one single large room, and that's ok.

But 60 people can't sit down for a meal in a function room, as that would be defined as "an event".

Is my interpretation correct?

is_that_so · 23-08-2020 9:13am

Infernal Racket wrote: »

Big Phil has a neck like a jockeys bollix, he will not step aside no way no how..

A more extended and "heartfelt" apology at most. So far he seems just annoyed at the probing by people here. Had it been a commissioner from Latvia or Greece there wouldn't be such a storm.

paddy19 · 23-08-2020 12:42pm

Geuze wrote: »

Thanks.

So 60 people made up of say 20 tables can be in a regular pub/restaurant, in one single large room, and that's ok.

But 60 people can't sit down for a meal in a function room, as that would be defined as "an event".

Is my interpretation correct?

I think that this interpretation is correct.

60 people in one event are more likely to have a higher degree of interaction
that 20 disparate groups who don't know each other.

Obviously a pub is somewhere in the middle.

Van.Bosch · 23-08-2020 1:05pm

is_that_so wrote: »

A more extended and "heartfelt" apology at most. So far he seems just annoyed at the probing by people here. Had it been a commissioner from Latvia or Greece there wouldn't be such a storm.

Spot on with your prediction

Rew · 23-08-2020 6:06pm

Mysterypunter wrote: »

The 81 people exceeded the limit of 50, and they tried to pass it off as two gatherings, one of 45 and one of 36, divided by a partition, which is like you living in a kitchen, and me living in a sitting room, but claiming we are in separate accommodation because of the dividing wall.

Its been going on with hotels since the end of lockdown, hence the references to the IHF giving guidance. Hotels that have 2 rooms, 2 sets of toilets and 2 set of bars have been holding weddings and events for 50+ all over the country.

What Covid laws were broken in Clifden?

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