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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Comments

  • #2552
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    You're the one presenting yourself as an expert on the mental health of children.
    As if.

    You'll have to point out the post where I presented myself as an expert. Although as a parent I know instilling fear in a child needs to be balanced but to allow a child to be in a state of constant anxiety is not good and you don't need to be an expert to know this. Being a parent helps though.


  • #2553
    stargazer 68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,190 ✭✭✭stargazer 68


    Deleted User wrote: »
    An 11 year old that is Covid anxious and hugely upset at seeing some people shaking hands. What has this country become folks?

    Can't say I am a big fan of this government but I take no pleasure seeing a man forced to resign for attending a function.

    Half of these ministers know the restrictions are b*llox anyways.

    A few months ago in another thread someone was saying that they had to leave a supermarket as their kid went into meltdown because people didn't have masks on.


  • #2554
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    i_surge wrote: »
    Pointless?

    To try achieve something grand

    Typical!

    "Practically out the otherside" is not an honest statement

    Well, this is a new reason. The existing reasons for it being pointless are the following;

    Eradicating the virus comes from either (1) sealing your borders entirely, including to imported goods, indefinitely; or (2) the whole world, every country, taking the same approach to lockdown and eradicate the virus. It must be one of those two things or else it necessarily fails. Like, it isn't even a starter without one of those two things.

    In that context, I'm saying the chances of even the UK trying it now are gone so 1 and 2 aren't even possible anymore.


  • #2555
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    stargazer 68 wrote: »
    A few months ago in another thread someone was saying that they had to leave a supermarket as their kid went into meltdown because people didn't have masks on.

    Parents shouldn't have even been bringing their kids into supermarkets a few months ago, ridiculous to try and shame people with a kid in that situation.


  • #2556
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Well, this is a new reason. The existing reasons for it being pointless are the following;

    Eradicating the virus comes from either (1) sealing your borders entirely, including to imported goods, indefinitely; or (2) the whole world, every country, taking the same approach to lockdown and eradicate the virus. It must be one of those two things or else it necessarily fails. Like, it isn't even a starter without one of those two things.

    In that context, I'm saying the chances of even the UK trying it now are gone so 1 and 2 aren't even possible anymore.

    See how you deliberately wove in a strawman there "including imported goods". No one is talking about that.

    Ideally a global approach but it is unlikely and not a requirement. You don't think relative strength is a thing?

    We could be in a much better standing like our Asian/Australasian betters.

    Why would you not want that?


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  • #2557
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    i_surge wrote: »
    See how you deliberately wove in a strawman there "including imported goods". No one is talking about that.

    Ideally a global approach but it is unlikely and not a requirement. You don't think relative strength is a thing?

    We could be in a much better standing like our Asian/Australasian betters.

    Why would you not want that?

    We have no social or cultural or geographical or historical links to Asia and Australia. We are part of the EU socially and physically, why not adopt the EU consensus approach?

    We absolutely would need to stop importing goods if we were going for a solo zero covid approach as interactions with people on the ship could lead to an outbreak here.


  • #2558
    dalyboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Another reason the zero covid approach must be banished from the public discourse comes from the UK. London has greatly eased restrictions, a friend was over last week and was shocked how different it is to Ireland. There are certain theories that herd immunity has been achieved in parts of London too. That means the UK is more likely to continue to ease its restrictions, not go stricter, which means we absolutely cannot even attempt to to try a zero covid approach at this point.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-letter-signed-by-irish-researchers-seeks-policy-rethink-1.4273936

    When the armchair pundits online saw this approach as BS from way back in June, it really raises questions about how much we should be listening to the likes of McConckey, Anthony Staines, Gerard Killeen and Tomás Ryan.

    McConckey, Anthony Staines, Gerard Killeen and Tomás Ryan are scared of being exposed for supporting modelling miscalculations since day one. That’s why they continue these shameful calls to bludgeon what remains of an already critically damaged Irish economy. They’re coming across as the real tinfoil hat wearing loons in all of this.

    Nowhere in their lockdown plan does it say how long we can bury ourselves away on our own (weeks , months , years) , how do we function economically, how do we pay our medical staff , health bills , social welfare etc etc with a non functioning economy. . How do we tell Europe that we have reneged on our treaties. How do we close our northern border. What do we do with our ignored issue of mental health casualties (are those potential deaths insignificant?)

    This cohort needs to be exposed and shunned by anyone with a functioning brain or moral standpoint. Ireland can not afford to have these lunatics running our asylum any longer.


  • #2559
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    We have no social or cultural or geographical or historical links to Asia and Australia. We are part of the EU socially and physically, why not adopt the EU consensus approach?

    We absolutely would need to stop importing goods if we were going for a solo zero covid approach as interactions with people on the ship could lead to an outbreak here.

    Ok I'm sure you have talked at length about the need to do nothing. Go back to your own logic on goods. People like you argue for and against the transmissibility of this virus in the same sentence. Self defeating arguments.

    More prudently, simply follow the example set by countries who have already achieved what small minds here think is impossible. They managed fine without cutting off their own hand.


  • #2560
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    dalyboy wrote: »
    McConckey, Anthony Staines, Gerard Killeen and Tomás Ryan are scared of being exposed for supporting modelling miscalculations since day one. That’s why they continue these shameful calls to bludgeon what remains of an already critically damaged Irish economy. They’re coming across as the real tinfoil hat wearing loons in all of this.

    Nowhere in their lockdown plan does it say how long we can bury ourselves away on our own (weeks , months , years) , how do we function economically, how do we pay our medical staff , health bills , social welfare etc etc with a non functioning economy. . How do we tell Europe that we have reneged on our treaties. How do we close our northern border. What do we do with our ignored issue of mental health casualties (are those potential deaths insignificant?)

    This cohort needs to be exposed and shunned by anyone with a functioning brain or moral standpoint. Ireland can not afford to have these lunatics running our asylum any longer.

    The real lunatics are those in government coming up with wildly inconsistent policies.

    Just a cold crew are the wearers of tinfoil.


  • #2561
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    i_surge wrote: »
    Ok I'm sure you have talked at length about the need to do nothing. Go back to your own logic on goods. People like you argue for and against the transmissibility of this virus in the same sentence. Self defeating arguments.

    More prudently, simply follow the example set by countries who have already achieved what small minds here think is impossible. They managed fine without cutting off their own hand.

    Great, so you choose to ignore my question about why we would copy Asia and Australia as if we weren't physically connected to the UK and geographically next door neighbours to the rest of the EU under the umbrella of which we are effectively a collection of federal states.

    You are speaking totally and ignorantly thereotically with zero comprehension or understanding of the practical aspects.


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  • #2562
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    Great, so you choose to ignore my question about why we would copy Asia and Australia as if we weren't physically connected to the UK and geographically next door neighbours to the rest of the EU under the umbrella of which we are effectively a collection of federal states.

    You are speaking totally and ignorantly thereotically with zero comprehension or understanding of the practical aspects.

    Because the practical can be easily overcome, especially when the end justifies the means.


  • #2563
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    i_surge wrote: »
    Because the practical can be easily overcome, especially when the end justifies the means.

    This isn't a movie where we talk in soundbites and riddles.


  • #2564
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    This isn't a movie where we talk in soundbites and riddles.

    If someone told you last year that we would all mostly agree to lockdown in spring 2020 for a viral pandemic you would gave laughed in their face.

    Anything can happen, most of what is needed has already been done to some extent so your excuses are largely imagined.

    Ni border is an issue but collaboration isn't outside the bounds of possibility when the outcome is mutually beneficial.


  • #2565
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Real life being stranger than fiction, in the movies there would be an absence of people actively shooting themselves in the foot and a happy ending already.


  • #2566
    dalyboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭dalyboy


    i_surge wrote: »
    The real lunatics are those in government coming up with wildly inconsistent policies.

    Just a cold crew are the wearers of tinfoil.

    Our government needs to get real with the situation. Get a fool proof / iron clad track and trace system in place. Get PCR testing at the airports that’ll sort the 14 day voluntary quarantine issue and insure red zone passengers don’t influx our infection numbers. Fix the meat factory issue and make them 100% safe for staff. PROTECT the elderly and vulnerable.

    After that we need to learn to live with this virus. It’s not going to go away (though there is strong evidence that it’s weakened its fatality virility) and this country needs to function economically , educationally and socially.


  • #2567
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,581 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    i_surge wrote: »
    If someone told you last year that we would all mostly agree to lockdown in spring 2020 for a viral pandemic you would gave laughed in their face.
    Anything can happen, most of what is needed has already been done to sone extent so your excuses are largely imagined.
    Ni border is an issue but collaboration isn't outside the bounds of possibility when the outcome is mutually beneficial.

    If we were two normal bordering polities there might be some chance of that, e.g. Portugal and Spain.
    But as we have seen, N Ireland aren't going to diverge from rest of UK, even if we might think it is in their best interests.
    The rest of UK don't look like following suit.
    London would have to be on board \ leading it as a strategy for it to be realistic on this island too.
    Until there are some signs of that I think it's moot as a strategy.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #2568
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    dalyboy wrote: »
    Our government needs to get real with the situation. Get a fool proof / iron clad track and trace system in place. Get PCR testing at the airports that’ll sort the 14 day voluntary quarantine issue and insure red zone passengers don’t influx our infection numbers. Fix the meat factory issue and make them 100% safe for staff. PROTECT the elderly and vulnerable.

    After that we need to learn to live with this virus. It’s not going to go away (though there is strong evidence that it’s weakened its fatality virility) and this country needs to function economically , educationally and socially.

    I more or less agree with you.

    Sort the basics properly, no inconsistencies and live collectively with high standards.

    Both hard/impossible to do in Ireland.


  • #2569
    brisan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    dalyboy wrote: »
    Our government needs to get real with the situation. Get a fool proof / iron clad track and trace system in place. Get PCR testing at the airports that’ll sort the 14 day voluntary quarantine issue and insure red zone passengers don’t influx our infection numbers. Fix the meat factory issue and make them 100% safe for staff. PROTECT the elderly and vulnerable.

    After that we need to learn to live with this virus. It’s not going to go away (though there is strong evidence that it’s weakened its fatality virility) and this country needs to function economically , educationally and socially.

    The bit in bold is because the vulnerable and the elderly are still taking extra precautions
    Its mainly the under 45 age group who are catching the virus and they are less likely to die from covid 19
    A quick glance around any pub restaurant will show that very few over 70s are out and about socializing compared to pre covid


  • #2570
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    brisan wrote: »
    The bit in bold is because the vulnerable and the elderly are still taking extra precautions
    Its mainly the under 45 age group who are catching the virus and they are less likely to die from covid 19
    A quick glance around any pub restaurant will show that very few over 70s are out and about socializing compared to pre covid

    But we've been told all along that we will bring it home to the vulnerable. It can't work both ways. I think there is growing evidence that the ability of the virus to make people seriously ill is diminishing. (Fingers crossed)


  • #2571
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,581 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    polesheep wrote: »
    But we've been told all along that we will bring it home to the vulnerable. It can't work both ways. I think there is growing evidence that the ability of the virus to make people seriously ill is diminishing. (Fingers crossed)

    I don't see that yet.
    I think we've gotten better at protecting and treating the vulnerable.

    e.g. remember that there are better treatments than in spring such as Dexamethasone for those who end up in hospital.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • #2572
    completedit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    Deleted User wrote: »
    An 11 year old that is Covid anxious and hugely upset at seeing some people shaking hands. What has this country become folks?

    Can't say I am a big fan of this government but I take no pleasure seeing a man forced to resign for attending a function.

    Half of these ministers know the restrictions are b*llox anyways.

    That's it. We backed ourselves into a corner at the start giving control to a crowd of academics to set the entire agenda.


  • #2573
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    From the FT's interactive covid graph, I've brought up some of the major EU countries and it is quite clear that the new rise in cases (the "surge" as the media like to call it) is not resulting in deaths lending credence to the views that it is weakening, that it is now affecting the young who are not really affected by it etc. Very positive.


  • #2574
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    I don't see that yet.
    I think we've gotten better at protecting and treating the vulnerable.

    e.g. remember that there are better treatments than in spring such as Dexamethasone for those who end up in hospital.

    But they aren't ending up in hospital, that's the point! And the only vulnerable that we have gotten better at protecting are those in the nursing/care homes. So, either it's weakening or the only people it was ever going to hit hard are the very people that we failed to protect.


  • #2575
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,581 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    polesheep wrote: »
    But they aren't ending up in hospital, that's the point! And the only vulnerable that we have gotten better at protecting are those in the nursing/care homes. So, either it's weakening or the only people it was ever going to hit hard are the very people that we failed to protect.

    Where are your figures for that?
    Do you have figures from May for non nursing home cases of vulnerable groups for hospital admissions?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • #2576
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Where are your figures for that?
    Do you have figures from May for non nursing home cases of vulnerable groups for hospital admissions?

    Interested to get some facts too. Has it weakened or not? Or does it just look like it has?


  • #2577
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Where are your figures for that?
    Do you have figures from May for non nursing home cases of vulnerable groups for hospital admissions?

    Why? What relevance does it have to what I wrote? We also failed to protect the vulnerable in the community because the government, for whatever reason, wouldn't tell that particular cohort to lockdown. I'm not suggesting that we could have protected everyone, there were always going to be casualties.


  • #2578
    polesheep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,950 ✭✭✭polesheep


    i_surge wrote: »
    Interested to get some facts too. Has it weakened or not? Or does it just look like it has?

    Agree. It needs to be drilled into.


  • #2579
    robbiezero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,738 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    brisan wrote: »
    The bit in bold is because the vulnerable and the elderly are still taking extra precautions
    Its mainly the under 45 age group who are catching the virus and they are less likely to die from covid 19
    A quick glance around any pub restaurant will show that very few over 70s are out and about socializing compared to pre covid

    I'm seeing lots of them out and about.
    Mainly in outdoor environments.
    Going to sports games etc.

    Which is why its such a f**king joke preventing them from doing that. Its one of the few activities they can relatively safely do while meeting people safely and enjoying themselves. As you say, they are avoiding pubs and restaurants and indoor environments.


  • #2580
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    Are the above posts serious?

    https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/
    https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/casesinireland/epidemiologyofcovid-19inireland/

    These are your links to our data, they should be bookmarked in your browser.

    The first link is updated daily and shows, among other things, numbers in hospital and ICU. It has been low for months at this stage. The second link is our overall case data. P9 of the reports gives the breakdown of hospitalisations and deaths split between the age groups.


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  • #2581
    odyssey06
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,581 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    polesheep wrote: »
    Why? What relevance does it have to what I wrote? We also failed to protect the vulnerable in the community because the government, for whatever reason, wouldn't tell that particular cohort to lockdown. I'm not suggesting that we could have protected everyone, there were always going to be casualties.

    You said:
    "So, either it's weakening or the only people it was ever going to hit hard are the very people that we failed to protect."

    No I meant for your theory re: the virus weakening.
    We'd really need to see what the % of infections of the vulnerable were in April say, leading to hospitalisations.
    Versus now.
    I don't think the vulnerable were just in nursing homes.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



This discussion has been closed.
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