How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

little bess · 16-08-2020 11:46PM

Purplewaters wrote: »

It may not be your style but they are possible. Plenty of people do online courses.

Yes, my daughter’s in uni and loving the online classes. It suits her temperament and she’s very much an independent learner, also it cuts her commute down and she’s not as tired. I can see that it wouldn’t suit some though.

Bananaleaf · 16-08-2020 11:46PM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Year group is 40-50. I had 20 in my class, 40 in my year group, when I was there.

To be fair to the school, that plan is as good as it gets. Well done to them, they've done what they can. I believe that it won't be enough to keep Covid out of the school but that isn't on them.

lulublue22 · 16-08-2020 11:47PM

Blondini wrote: »

Look lad, I like your stats work on the main thread but come back to me when you've observed many many thousands of students in their natural environment okay.

Good luck.

That’s the joy of being young - in fallible and invincible. We were all like that at one stage.

gnf_ireland · 16-08-2020 11:47PM

i_surge wrote: »

The current plan should be fiercely opposed (by parents and teachers) because it is frankly **** and disobeys what we know about the virus...give them one month to go back to the drawing board and get it right. Should be a motivator.

However I fear there will be a contorted peer pressure effect where people will go along to get along.

Parents cannot oppose anything - the vast majority have heard no detail from the schools on how this will work. Detail is needed to see how safe or not the situation is. We need to move away from anecdotal evidence and rumours.

Teachers (I would hope) have more detail on the situation. Teachers Unions and Principals unions are very quiet this last few weeks. They are the ones who should be raising the issues now - and I hope they are not waiting for the 1st September to do so.

How many children that can fit in a classroom is a mathematical equation, based on room size/shape and distance apart - it is not a subjective assessment from a teacher/principal who will try and squeeze them in. If the room is too small, they have to find alternative spaces for them.

There is plenty of information on class size captured by the Department each year. I wonder how confident the DES would be in their plan, if the room size was now published with the class size so it was freely available for all to see?
https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Data-on-Individual-Schools/

*BTW I was shocked to see class sizes over 35, never mind 40 on that list. Given the student/teacher ratios, there is no justification for that*

lulublue22 · 16-08-2020 11:48PM

i_surge wrote: »

So don't accept it. You know it is wrong. Force them to come up with something workable.

Teachers won’t be striking - maybe you could on our behalf ?

gnf_ireland · 16-08-2020 11:49PM

little bess wrote: »

Yes, my daughter’s in uni and loving the online classes. It suits her temperament and she’s very much an independent learner, also it cuts her commute down and she’s not as tired. I can see that it wouldn’t suit some though.

To be fair, online classes suit certain groups and ages. I do a good bit on online education personally, because it best suits my schedule

But you cannot compare a university student and a child in 1st class !

combat14 · 16-08-2020 11:50PM

Ireland's Covid-19 approach 'probably not working' says health expert

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40033271.html%3ftype=amp

my concern is that schools will open and then have to close in 4-6 weeks again (if not sooner)

if we dont have a proper plan to safely open schools and they close there is a danger they wont open again for the rest of the year

we need a proper plan for reopening that matches what we know about this virus not simply business as usual with a few masks and a hail mary

at the moment the govts plan for the wider population is not working we need better for schools to properly open and stay going

Purplewaters · 16-08-2020 11:53PM

Parents can view the plan and we don't know much more than that plan provides. I think honestly parents have more power. Teachers have no public support and are accused of being a protected species. Parents would be listened to but have a little more choice in the matter as they can refuse to send their child in. A teacher can't financially refuse to go into work. Parents not working from home also are in a bind.

Purplewaters · 16-08-2020 11:55PM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

To be fair, online classes suit certain groups and ages. I do a good bit on online education personally, because it best suits my schedule

But you cannot compare a university student and a child in 1st class !

I was referring to leaving cert as a poster pointed out that work can't be caught up on. I agree that teens of 15 and 16 would need yo work online to some degree to keep up. Unless the course was reduced down a bit.

Bananaleaf · 16-08-2020 11:55PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

For the millionth time on this thread. Nobody is saying to leave the schools closed.

People are saying maybe don't just lump everyone in at the same time.

Explore options like 4-day week for students, rotating classes to reduce numbers

Week-on, week-off- alternating groups maybe, with online when a group not on premises but teachers in all the time

Many options that could have been explored but haven't been

The government themselves were even saying this back in phase 1. Even when they thought we would be home and dry in phase 5 by now. :eek:

On page 8 of the following document they themselves said that a "phased" return to school would be needed. And I repeat, that was the plan when they thought they'd have phase 4 behind them!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/73722/ffd17d70fbb64b498fd809dde548f411.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0-KWX6KDrAhViWhUIHTXUDu0QFjAHegQIBBAI&usg=AOvVaw2FtLfjwdl0Jfbb-P1I_hGM

little bess · 16-08-2020 11:55PM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

To be fair, online classes suit certain groups and ages. I do a good bit on online education personally, because it best suits my schedule

But you cannot compare a university student and a child in 1st class !

I wasn’t comparing, was giving an example of how it suits some older students.

Purplewaters · 16-08-2020 11:56PM

combat14 wrote: »

Ireland's Covid-19 approach 'probably not working' says health expert

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40033271.html%3ftype=amp

my concern is that schools will open and then have to close in 4-6 weeks again (if not sooner)

if we dont have a proper plan to safely open schools and they close there is a danger they wont open again for the rest of the year

we need a proper plan for reopening that matches what we know about this virus not simply business as usual with a few masks and a hail mary

at the moment the govts plan for the wider population is not working we need better for schools to properly open and stay going

I agree and the sad thing is that for them all to close there will be loads of cases and these cases are people's lives. I think similar to the meat factories it is really sad when people in charge actively participate in people getting this virus. I honestly think that's what's happenekng with this plan

gnf_ireland · 16-08-2020 11:57PM

lulublue22 wrote: »

Teachers won’t be striking - maybe you could on our behalf ?

I am not so sure that teachers wont be striking over this. The question is more how much public support will they get, and that really depends on a large number of factors.

The big challenge teachers have is the new government have been singular in their mindset that schools are opening since the start of the summer. They repeat this message at least twice a week in various updates. Teachers Unions have been silent on the matter (rightly or wrongly). They either have to take the government head on and a direct collision course (ending in a strike) or they lay down and accept it (and deal with the inevitable fallout when it happens).

There is no in-between .... at this late stage in the summer

lulublue22 · 16-08-2020 11:57PM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Parents cannot oppose anything - the vast majority have heard no detail from the schools on how this will work. Detail is needed to see how safe or not the situation is. We need to move away from anecdotal evidence and rumours.

Teachers (I would hope) have more detail on the situation. Teachers Unions and Principals unions are very quiet this last few weeks. They are the ones who should be raising the issues now - and I hope they are not waiting for the 1st September to do so.

How many children that can fit in a classroom is a mathematical equation, based on room size/shape and distance apart - it is not a subjective assessment from a teacher/principal who will try and squeeze them in. If the room is too small, they have to find alternative spaces for them.

There is plenty of information on class size captured by the Department each year. I wonder how confident the DES would be in their plan, if the room size was now published with the class size so it was freely available for all to see?
https://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Statistics/Data-on-Individual-Schools/

*BTW I was shocked to see class sizes over 35, never mind 40 on that list. Given the student/teacher ratios, there is no justification for that*

Student / teacher ratios include SET teachers who are not class teachers. It allows the dep to pretend the student / teacher ratios are better than what they are. Classes of 30 are quite normal. Then you will see classes between 31 - 35. I’ve never come across a class of 40 though. At the other end of the scale there are a few classes of 24 - 26.

gnf_ireland · 16-08-2020 11:59PM

Purplewaters wrote: »

I was referring to leaving cert as a poster pointed out that work can't be caught up on. I agree that teens of 15 and 16 would need yo work online to some degree to keep up. Unless the course was reduced down a bit.

to be fair, I do think this thread needs to be split between primary and post-primary. They are two different worlds with two different challenges for returning to school and most cannot keep up

But yes, most secondary level students, but senior cycle in particular, should be able to manage a blended learning scenario.

Apologies for the confusion

Purplewaters · 16-08-2020 11:59PM

I noticed when the people started questioning why phase 4 wasn't happening but schools which came after were still opening fully which again wasn't even the plan, suddenly the government decided to do colours instead so they could change it to suit their new rhetoric.

Leftwaffe · 17-08-2020 12:00AM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

This is a school of ~300 outside Cork City.
Here's some of it.

· A number of year groups will be based in classrooms and areas.
· Students will as move room as normal for practical subjects
· Most teachers will not be classroom based
· All students must have their own mask.
· Classrooms will have the appropriate number of desks and chairs to ensure a 1m distance as required by the DES guidelines.
· There will be two breaks of the same duration during the school day.
· The breaks will be staggered for different year groups and each year group will be assigned to a specific area
· Students will have to keep their books, pens, lunch etc. in their school bags and bring the school bag with them to class
· A one-way system for movement around the school will be in place with appropriate signage
· All entrance and exit doors will be used to access and leave the school
· Good hygiene practices are vital in keeping everyone safe. Sanitizers are in place at every entrance and in all classrooms.
· Warm water and soap dispensers are available in all toilets.

This is the exact plan for our school and it is going to be a disaster imo.

Purplewaters · 17-08-2020 12:02AM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I am not so sure that teachers wont be striking over this. The question is more how much public support will they get, and that really depends on a large number of factors.

The big challenge teachers have is the new government have been singular in their mindset that schools are opening since the start of the summer. They repeat this message at least twice a week in various updates. Teachers Unions have been silent on the matter (rightly or wrongly). They either have to take the government head on and a direct collision course (ending in a strike) or they lay down and accept it (and deal with the inevitable fallout when it happens).

There is no in-between .... at this late stage in the summer

The way they throw it into the ads for handwashing and about pubs not opening too is so sneaky too. The schools are a very specific issue that is not as simple as keep pubs closed, get schools open. I find this government are the worst for talking to us like we are fools.

Bananaleaf · 17-08-2020 12:02AM

Purplewaters wrote: »

I noticed when the people started questioning why phase 4 wasn't happening but schools which came after were still opening fully which again wasn't even the plan, suddenly the government decided to do colours instead so they could change it to suit their new rhetoric.

And yet that still doesn't explain why they initially said it would be a phased return but now it is a full return.

Phased return mentioned on page 8 of this doc for anyone looking for a source:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/73722/ffd17d70fbb64b498fd809dde548f411.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0-KWX6KDrAhViWhUIHTXUDu0QFjAHegQIBBAI&usg=AOvVaw2FtLfjwdl0Jfbb-P1I_hGM

gnf_ireland · 17-08-2020 12:03AM

lulublue22 wrote: »

Student / teacher ratios include SET teachers who are not class teachers. It allows the dep to pretend the student / teacher ratios are better than what they are. Classes of 30 are quite normal. Then you will see classes between 31 - 35. I’ve never come across a class of 40 though. At the other end of the scale there are a few classes of 24 - 26.

Yes I understand that. The link I have sent shows all primary schools in the country and the size of each class in it. It shows some over 40 (not may) but it is still shocking that any exist

A student/teacher ratio of 22 (or whatever it is right now), means that class sizes up to 30 do happen when SET and non teaching principals are taken into account. However above that figure should be an exception rather than the rule. My own daughter had a class size of 34 last year. But above 35 is 1.5 times the student teacher ratio and should not be happening.

Purplewaters · 17-08-2020 12:04AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

And yet that still doesn't explain why they initially said it would be a phased return but now it is a full return.

Phased return mentioned on page 8 of this doc for anyone looking for a source:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/73722/ffd17d70fbb64b498fd809dde548f411.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0-KWX6KDrAhViWhUIHTXUDi

One hundred percent feel it was for ff to try and outdo fg. Leo even said it wouldn't necessarily be full reopening. Ff care more about looking good than our health and safety. They wanted to go 'bigger and better.

gnf_ireland · 17-08-2020 12:04AM

Purplewaters wrote: »

The way they throw it into the ads for handwashing and about pubs not opening too is so sneaky too. The schools are a very specific issue that is not as simple as keep pubs closed, get schools open. I find this government are the worst for talking to us like we are fools.

They are repeating that message over and over again, at every opportunity. This is the challenge teacher have. They either have to take them on head on, or accept it. There is nothing in between at this stage (a month ago maybe, but not now)

Sunday Sunday · 17-08-2020 12:05AM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

This is the exact plan for our school and it is going to be a disaster imo.

Might not be, everyone might be pleasantly surprised (or disappointed maybe?) when things actually go alright and most schools remain open over the coming months.

It's not necessarily a given that things are going to go badly. I'm looking forward to seeing our school plan, hopefully soon.

i_surge · 17-08-2020 12:06AM

Purplewaters wrote: »

Bananaleaf wrote: »

And yet that still doesn't explain why they initially said it would be a phased return but now it is a full return.

Phased return mentioned on page 8 of this doc for anyone looking for a source:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.gov.ie/73722/ffd17d70fbb64b498fd809dde548f411.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj0-KWX6KDrAhViWhUIHTXUDi

One hundred percent feel it was for ff to try and outdo fg. Leo even said it wouldn't necessarily be full reopening. Ff care more about looking good than our health and safety. They wanted to go 'bigger and better.

Can MM be at the helm of F'ing up the country twice? :eek:

What a man.

Purplewaters · 17-08-2020 12:06AM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

They are repeating that message over and over again, at every opportunity. This is the challenge teacher have. They either have to take them on head on, or accept it. There is nothing in between at this stage (a month ago maybe, but not now)

I feel completely torn. I obviously want some routine and normality but I disagree with the plan. It is dangerous to my students, my health and my family's health and I don't feel I have any options. I presume other teachers and parents feel the same but nobody seems to care.

lulublue22 · 17-08-2020 12:08AM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I am not so sure that teachers wont be striking over this. The question is more how much public support will they get, and that really depends on a large number of factors.

The big challenge teachers have is the new government have been singular in their mindset that schools are opening since the start of the summer. They repeat this message at least twice a week in various updates. Teachers Unions have been silent on the matter (rightly or wrongly). They either have to take the government head on and a direct collision course (ending in a strike) or they lay down and accept it (and deal with the inevitable fallout when it happens).

There is no in-between .... at this late stage in the summer

As a teacher I would be fairly confident there will not be a strike.

Purplewaters · 17-08-2020 12:09AM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

Might not be, everyone might be pleasantly surprised (or disappointed maybe?) when things actually go alright and most schools remain open over the coming months.

It's not necessarily a given that things are going to go badly. I'm looking forward to seeing our school plan, hopefully soon.

I suppose the problem is if it goes wrong it is peoples lives that are at stake. We are expected to behave as if we have the virus. So we basically need a school to act as if there is cases of covid in there. This is the basic premise for all covid behaviour. I keep 2m away from strangers because they could have rhe virus or I could. We probably don't, but we still distance in case we do. The same logic needs to apply.

khalessi · 17-08-2020 12:10AM

Sunday Sunday wrote: »

Might not be, everyone might be pleasantly surprised (or disappointed maybe?) when things actually go alright and most schools remain open over the coming months.

It's not necessarily a given that things are going to go badly. I'm looking forward to seeing our school plan, hopefully soon.

As I have said before I hope it does and if it does it will be down to the hard work of teachers making silk out of a sows ear with the plan.

Purplewaters · 17-08-2020 12:11AM

lulublue22 wrote: »

As a teacher I would be fairly confident there will not be a strike.

I feel there probably should have at least been a threat of it. Have heard that the teacher unions and dept lf ed are in cahoots and can't help thinking with all this that that could be true.

lulublue22 · 17-08-2020 12:12AM

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Yes I understand that. The link I have sent shows all primary schools in the country and the size of each class in it. It shows some over 40 (not may) but it is still shocking that any exist

A student/teacher ratio of 22 (or whatever it is right now), means that class sizes up to 30 do happen when SET and non teaching principals are taken into account. However above that figure should be an exception rather than the rule. My own daughter had a class size of 34 last year. But above 35 is 1.5 times the student teacher ratio and should not be happening.

Again I have never seen or heard of a class of 40. Not doubting that they exist but definitely an outlier.

will check your link to tomorrow when I’m more fully awake. I would be interested to see where these classes of 40 are.

How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

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