Is it just me or have SF vanished?

McMurphy · 14-08-2020 10:06AM

jh79 wrote: »

I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic.

The Dissidents split because they thought the SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.

You're missing the point jh, posters here want to suggest the dissidents are descendants from the provisionals - therefore are one and the same.

This doesn't carry over though when you apply it to the OIRA/PIRA

Doesn't matter a shiny shyte the reason for the split, as I said, if you try and blindly draw those comparisons, you can't just decide to stop because the narrative no longer suits.

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 10:08AM

McMurphy wrote: »

This is supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

No

McMurphy wrote: »

Why not tidy up the post with some facts or details that counter my post that quoted yours?

No thanks. So far I have failed to see many facts on this thread. Mainly the ramblings of a single poster who has very questionable knowledge

jm08 · 14-08-2020 10:19AM

jh79 wrote: »

I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic.
The Dissidents split because they thought that SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.

Which is a similar reason to why there was a split in 1969. The Officials wanted to recognise both States and take parliamentary seats in Westminister and Dublin. The Provisionals wanted to keep their Republican principles. I think you may be confusing the Officials position of trying to unite both protestant and catholic workers in a socialist republic and not interject when loyalists attacked catholics, where the Provisionals decided to physically defend catholics against loyalist attacks in the Bogside. Thats when the split occured.

jm08 · 14-08-2020 11:33AM

Superfoods wrote: »

It looks like we have two versions of history. What actually happened and then the Francie version. So far in your version

PIRA casued no fear in NI. - The PIRA were not attacking nationalists. Their enemies were The Irish State, the British State, the RUC and British Army.
Everyone had no issues during the troubles. Lots of people had issues during the troubles, but the nationalist community were not being attacked by the PIRA. The nationalist community were under attack from the British State and the PIRA were the only ones defending them. The Irish State was helpless in protecting them.
Sinn Fein really had the backing of the people, they just never voted for them. Voted in wha? Stormont Gov. was abolished in 1972. The new Assembly wasn't established until 1998. There was one Stormont assembly election in 1982 which Sinn Fein contested, but declared they were not taking their seats. They got 10% of vote, with SDLP getting 18%.
Meanwhile, in Westminister elections:
SDLP: Generally 1 seat up to 1983. 1987: 3; 1992:4; 1997-2001: 3.
SF: 1983-87: 1; 1992: 0; 1997: 2; 2001: 4; 2001: 5.

Everything was perfect. It was far from perfect.
PIRA didn't kill or maim anyone in the North. Bull****.
Punishment beatings? what the hell are they? They happened.
Oh and the british army..... What about it?

Did I forget anything? To mention that you have a very limited knowledge and understanding of Ireland's history.

Im not a RA head, or a Shinner, I dont support any political organization. FF/FG or any of them. They are all fairly incompedent in my eyes.

And what about you? With rights come responsbility (i.e., you have a right to a vote, you should use it responsibly or just abstain).

But if this is what Sinn Fein and supporters plan to do going forward then it is time to put a stop to it. If they are voted in, is the plan for everyone to go and burn all history books so nobody can remember the troubles? remember exactly what Sinn Fein and the PIRA did?

The problem you have is that you have not read enough history books. Read a bit more and read books that just don't conform to what you want to believe.

SafeSurfer · 14-08-2020 12:03PM

To add the reality on planet Francie.

IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.

Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth

Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 12:14PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

To add the reality on planet Francie.

IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.

Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth

I didn't say it was a myth...I said there was no higher incidence of sexual abuse in the IRA than any other organisation.
You were asked to name the 'abusers' we know existed. You FAILED TO EVEN TRY.

I did say the over exaggeration of infiltration and spying within the IRA was part of mythmaking by one side.
You again FAILED TO NAME ANY MORE than two or three when asked.

Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.

YOU GAVE ZERO examples of 'communities' living in fear. (See a pattern here?) You gave examples of exactly what I said existed. See what I said about Slab Murphy for instance. 99.9% of the people in his community would not have had dealings with him, therefore they lived their lives as normal.
Specific and targeted intimidation does not a 'community' make.

jm08 · 14-08-2020 12:22PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.

Whats your angle here. It seems to be just a game to taunt posters with.Who cares about this stuff now. There are far more important things to be thinking of rather than informers.

Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth

I don't think the republican movement is any different from every other section of society.

Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.

The nationalist community feared the British Army, loyalist terrorists and didn't trust the RUC. They did not fear the PIRA in the same way and without the support of the nationalist community, the PIRA would not have lasted 5 minutes.

The unionist community feared the PIRA, INLA and all the other republican paramilitaries. They did not fear the RUC or British Army or various loyalist terrorist groupings.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

SafeSurfer · 14-08-2020 12:34PM

jm08 wrote: »

Whats your angle here. It seems to be just a game to taunt posters with.Who cares about this stuff now. There are far more important things to be thinking of rather than informers.

I don't think the republican movement is any different from every other section of society.

The nationalist community feared the British Army, loyalist terrorists and didn't trust the RUC. They did not fear the PIRA in the same way and without the support of the nationalist community, the PIRA would not have lasted 5 minutes.

The unionist community feared the PIRA, INLA and all the other republican paramilitaries. They did not fear the RUC or British Army or various loyalist terrorist groupings.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Thank you for pointing out that communities did live in fear. A little honesty goes a long way.

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 12:35PM

The PIRA had no problem killing and attaching nationists. Not sure why people are saying this never happened.

If you stepped out of line you got a beating or knee capping depending on how much you stepped out of line. Anything worse and you "disappeared". Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 12:37PM

jm08 wrote: »

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 12:38PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.

What did they achieve?

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 12:42PM

Superfoods wrote: »

What did they achieve?

Ask the vast majority of the republican/nationalist community who have voted for them again and again and again since the GFA, what they 'achieved'.

I.E. do some research in the real world.

jm08 · 14-08-2020 12:56PM

Superfoods wrote: »

The PIRA had no problem killing and attaching nationists. Not sure why people are saying this never happened.

When you say that, what do you mean they had no problem?

Did they do it randomly?
Who were the nationalists they killed?

If you stepped out of line you got a beating or knee capping depending on how much you stepped out of line. Anything worse and you "disappeared". Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

Step out of line in what way? Give me examples of these.

What was worse?

Name some of the loads of people that are missing who the PIRA refuse to tell where these people are buried?

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 01:02PM

jm08 wrote: »

When you say that, what do you mean they had no problem?

Did they do it randomly?
Who were the nationalists they killed?

Step out of line in what way? Give me examples of these.

What was worse?

Name some of the loads of people that are missing who the PIRA refuse to tell where these people are buried?

Knock yourself out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jean-mcconville-s-murder-the-boston-tapes-gerry-adams-and-the-ivor-bell-trial-1.4053933

Google "Gerry Adams The Disappeared" if you want some more information.

SafeSurfer · 14-08-2020 01:10PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't say it was a myth...I said there was no higher incidence of sexual abuse in the IRA than any other organisation.
You were asked to name the 'abusers' we know existed. You FAILED TO EVEN TRY.

I did say the over exaggeration of infiltration and spying within the IRA was part of mythmaking by one side.
You again FAILED TO NAME ANY MORE than two or three when asked.

YOU GAVE ZERO examples of 'communities' living in fear. (See a pattern here?) You gave examples of exactly what I said existed. See what I said about Slab Murphy for instance. 99.9% of the people in his community would not have had dealings with him, therefore they lived their lives as normal.
Specific and targeted intimidation does not a 'community' make.

Was the murder of Tom Oliver "specific and targeted" or was he just a member of the community who happened to find an IRA arms dump on his land? How about Billy Fox? Was that "specific and targeted", which was vehemently denied by those who carried it out or was he a random member of the community murdered by the IRA?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus SS, I have never said that punishment beatings or shootings didn't happen.

Where are the 'communities living in fear, then and now'?

A woman is not a 'community'

I gave examples. You ignored them and said I didn't give any examples. Difficult to argue with that.

Are the protestants of Fermanagh a community?

Have you even read the links, where members of communities describe their communities as living in fear?

How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation.
I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups.
It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one.

Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing.
The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves.

Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened.

I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.

Here is your direct response to my post on the incidence of IRA informers, sexual abuse and community fear.

All not just blown out of proportion but "myths" i.e. a widely held but false belief.

I don't understand what you hope to achieve by trying to argue that communities didn't live in fear during the troubles. I really don't.

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 01:26PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Was the murder of Tom Oliver "specific and targeted" or was he just a member of the community who happened to find an IRA arms dump on his land? How about Billy Fox? Was that "specific and targeted", which was vehemently denied by those who carried it out or was he a random member of the community murdered by the IRA?

I gave examples. You ignored them and said I didn't give any examples. Difficult to argue with that.

Are the protestants of Fermanagh a community?

Have you even read the links, where members of communities describe their communities as living in fear?

How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?

Those are examples of 'individuals' saying that 'communities were living in fear'.

I am saying that is overblown and exaggerated and a lazy trope.

Take a look at the earliest Peace Movement, savagely critical of the IRA, thosands upon thosands of people openly took part in those marches and parades. In fear of the IRA?
Where the mythical overlords there? Non existent.

Saying something is so, doesn't make it so.

Here is your direct response to my post on the incidence of IRA informers, sexual abuse and community fear.

All not just blown out of proportion but "myths" i.e. a widely held but false belief.

I don't understand what you hope to achieve by trying to argue that communities didn't live in fear during the troubles. I really don't.

Whenever you are ready to name more than a handful of informers and people cnvicted of sexual abuse...we are all ears and eyes.

Funny how quickly your tropes run out of steam when you have to give specifics isn't it? The classic identifier of a 'trope' or stereotype.

P.S. You also said 'communities are living in fear then and NOW'.

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 01:29PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ask the vast majority of the republican/nationalist community who have voted for them again and again and again since the GFA, what they 'achieved'.

I.E. do some research in the real world.

So the PIRA achieved votes since the Good Friday Agreement.

I thought the PIRA no longer existed? Or are you saying what we all know the PIRA/Sinn Fein is the same thing?

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 01:36PM

Superfoods wrote: »

So the PIRA achieved votes since the Good Friday Agreement.

I thought the PIRA no longer existed? Or are you saying what we all know the PIRA/Sinn Fein is the same thing?

Dear me.

I said the 'republican movement', which is much more than PIRA.

Can you please read posts properly?

franciebrady wrote:

Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.

jm08 · 14-08-2020 02:07PM

Superfoods wrote: »

Knock yourself out.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jean-mcconville-s-murder-the-boston-tapes-gerry-adams-and-the-ivor-bell-trial-1.4053933

Google "Gerry Adams The Disappeared" if you want some more information.

This is what your claim is:

Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

There are three people who have not been found out of 16. They are:
Robert Nairac

Columba McVeigh
Joe Lynskey

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27235088

Secondly, the PIRA have tried to locate the bodies, so its wrong to say that the PIRA won't tell the families.

Since you have not read that article, can I bring to your attention the verdict of the judge on what the Judge thought of the Boston Tapes and would not accept them as evidence.

In the end, Mr Justice O’Hara took it out of the hands of the jury when he ruled that the two tapes featuring Bell were inadmissible.

The judge was critical of the Belfast Project. He said that McIntyre had an agenda and was not a “neutral interviewer” in respect of Adams, the peace process and the Belfast Agreement.

The issue of supposed confidentiality gave Bell the freedom to tell the truth but also to lie. He added that “while Mr Bell may have felt he was free to tell his version of the truth . . . the difficulty is he also may have felt free to lie, distort, exaggerate, blame and mislead”.

He said McIntyre and Bell had a “clear bias and were out to get Gerry Adams”. He said the tapes would become public at the end of the trial and then “people can make up their own view”.

edit: I note you didn't answer any of my other questions.

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 02:37PM

jm08 wrote: »

edit: I note you didn't answer any of my other questions.

Again and again when you get past the tropes, stereotypes and myths, they are not at all good on specifics.

jm08 · 14-08-2020 02:37PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually understand what Fr Denis Faul actually said in his interview. I'll break it down into points for you and then you can go and read it when hopefully you will comprehend what he was actually saying.

1. The nationalist community (his flock) were reliant on the PIRA to keep law and order because the nationalist community had no trust in the RUC, the judicial system or the British Army.

2. He was critical of the British Goverment because as he said ''they never seem to even see the Northern Ireland community as a whole with its problems.'' He said that his hope lies with the Irish Government instead of the British Gov.

3. Fr Faul actually advocated that all republican prisoners should be just released in 1980 because they were unlikely to reoffend.

Now, read the interview properly.
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 02:45PM

jm08 wrote: »

There are three people who have not been found out of 16. They are:
Robert Nairac

Columba McVeigh
Joe Lynskey

So 3 people to you is nothing?

Suppose that is one view, the rest of the civilized World doesn't.

jm08 · 14-08-2020 03:00PM

Superfoods wrote: »

So 3 people to you is nothing?

Suppose that is one view, the rest of the civilized World doesn't.

Did I say it was nothing. It was just not loads of people as you claimed. (see your exact quote below). You then supply a link about Jean McConville who has been located.

You then claimed that the PIRA won't tell the families which is a lie. Unfortunately there are three they cannot find (though I'm not sure if anyone is looking for Nairac's body. You seem to be unaware that there was this set up to locate them in 1999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_for_the_Location_of_Victims%27_Remains

Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 03:09PM

jm08 wrote: »

Did I say it was nothing. It was just not loads of people as you claimed. (see your exact quote below). You then supply a link about Jean McConville who has been located.

You then claimed that the PIRA won't tell the families which is a lie. Unfortunately there are three they cannot find (though I'm not sure if anyone is looking for Nairac's body. You seem to be unaware that there was this set up to locate them in 1999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_for_the_Location_of_Victims%27_Remains

ICLVR told the Executive that they were satisfied with the engagement of the IRA in helping to find the missing. Yet again the mythmaking persists and guess who are making the myths...again.

Bishop of hope · 14-08-2020 03:26PM

McMurphy wrote: »

Quite easily.

The provos departed from the IRA who then became known as the official IRA.
Their stance on who and what should be targeted was the reason for the split as far as I know.

It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.[/quote]

Doesn't make your original post right.
The provos are distinct from the old IRA.
Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein.
There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

Superfoods · 14-08-2020 05:07PM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA.

You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit.

Doesn't make your original post right.
The provos are distinct from the old IRA.
Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein.
There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

"Up da Ra" says different

FrancieBrady · 14-08-2020 05:30PM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Doesn't make your original post right.
The provos are distinct from the old IRA.
Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein.
There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

A partitionist comfort blanket there particularly in the last paragraph.

14-08-2020 05:51PM

Bishop of hope wrote: »

There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.

To.me....theres no difference and shinnerz are every bit as hypocritical to critise dissident

Bishop of hope · 14-08-2020 08:10PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A partitionist comfort blanket there particularly in the last paragraph.

I'd expect no less of a response from your side, I stated as much.
But doesn't change the facts.
If you could ask this man, my fellow County man BTW, whom I heard talk on it a few times, he'd tell you what SF had turned into and away from.
We weren't all as sheltered from the truth as some would have you believe.
Populist politics replaced the ideals of both the original IRA and Sinn Fein.
Partionist is just a meaningless insult thrown out sometimes when the truth gets too hard to bear.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruairí_Ó_Brádaigh

SafeSurfer · 14-08-2020 09:07PM

jm08 wrote: »

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually understand what Fr Denis Faul actually said in his interview. I'll break it down into points for you and then you can go and read it when hopefully you will comprehend what he was actually saying.

1. The nationalist community (his flock) were reliant on the PIRA to keep law and order because the nationalist community had no trust in the RUC, the judicial system or the British Army.

2. He was critical of the British Goverment because as he said ''they never seem to even see the Northern Ireland community as a whole with its problems.'' He said that his hope lies with the Irish Government instead of the British Gov.

3. Fr Faul actually advocated that all republican prisoners should be just released in 1980 because they were unlikely to reoffend.

Now, read the interview properly.
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/

Thank you for your points above and for the advice to “read the interview properly”

Something which was difficult to do because the interview was in fact a television interview on Today Tonight, but of course you knew that and didn’t just “read” the short excerpts from the interview and then suggest I hadn’t “read” it properly.

Your first point is inaccurate.

What the good priest actually said when asked about policing was:

Brian Farrell: Outside of the political crime area does the catholic community make use of the RUC?

Fr. Denis Faul: oh yes they certainly make use of them outside the political crime area and they are probably quite an efficient police force in regard to traffic offences, burglaries, non political robberies, children, drugs and so on Certainty they go to them immediately.

Nowhere in the interview does Fr. Faul mention a call for “all republican prisoners” to be released.

He says

“These people (the provos) hold the catholic community in terror.

And again later:

“They hold the catholic community in absolute terror”

Asked if the PIRA were comparable to the mafia he says:

“Very much a mafia situation indeed, in addition to the murders that’s going on you have robbery, blackmail and extortion...,,,,hijacking of cars, the taking over of houses.

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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