jh79 wrote: » I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic. The Dissidents split because they thought the SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.
McMurphy wrote: » This is supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?
McMurphy wrote: » Why not tidy up the post with some facts or details that counter my post that quoted yours?
jh79 wrote: » I thought the OIRA split from the PIRA because the leaders of the PIRA were more religious and wanted a catholic 32 county republic while the OIRA wanted a secular socialist Republic. The Dissidents split because they thought that SF taking part in a partitionist devolved government betrayed their republican principles.
Superfoods wrote: » It looks like we have two versions of history. What actually happened and then the Francie version. So far in your version
Im not a RA head, or a Shinner, I dont support any political organization. FF/FG or any of them. They are all fairly incompedent in my eyes.
But if this is what Sinn Fein and supporters plan to do going forward then it is time to put a stop to it. If they are voted in, is the plan for everyone to go and burn all history books so nobody can remember the troubles? remember exactly what Sinn Fein and the PIRA did?
SafeSurfer wrote: » To add the reality on planet Francie. IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth. Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth
Communities living in fear- Another myth because I didn’t experience it so it must not be true, give me an example. Examples given- no still not true.
SafeSurfer wrote: » IRA informers - not just overblown but a myth.
Sexual abuse in the republican movement- not just overblown but a myth
jm08 wrote: » Whats your angle here. It seems to be just a game to taunt posters with.Who cares about this stuff now. There are far more important things to be thinking of rather than informers. I don't think the republican movement is any different from every other section of society. The nationalist community feared the British Army, loyalist terrorists and didn't trust the RUC. They did not fear the PIRA in the same way and without the support of the nationalist community, the PIRA would not have lasted 5 minutes. The unionist community feared the PIRA, INLA and all the other republican paramilitaries. They did not fear the RUC or British Army or various loyalist terrorist groupings. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
jm08 wrote: » Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.
Superfoods wrote: » What did they achieve?
Superfoods wrote: » The PIRA had no problem killing and attaching nationists. Not sure why people are saying this never happened.
If you stepped out of line you got a beating or knee capping depending on how much you stepped out of line. Anything worse and you "disappeared". Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried
jm08 wrote: » When you say that, what do you mean they had no problem? Did they do it randomly? Who were the nationalists they killed? Step out of line in what way? Give me examples of these. What was worse? Name some of the loads of people that are missing who the PIRA refuse to tell where these people are buried?
FrancieBrady wrote: » I didn't say it was a myth...I said there was no higher incidence of sexual abuse in the IRA than any other organisation. You were asked to name the 'abusers' we know existed. You FAILED TO EVEN TRY. I did say the over exaggeration of infiltration and spying within the IRA was part of mythmaking by one side. You again FAILED TO NAME ANY MORE than two or three when asked. YOU GAVE ZERO examples of 'communities' living in fear. (See a pattern here?) You gave examples of exactly what I said existed. See what I said about Slab Murphy for instance. 99.9% of the people in his community would not have had dealings with him, therefore they lived their lives as normal. Specific and targeted intimidation does not a 'community' make.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Jesus SS, I have never said that punishment beatings or shootings didn't happen. Where are the 'communities living in fear, then and now'? A woman is not a 'community'
FrancieBrady wrote: » On the basis that most organisations have had issues pre-awareness days with abuse and predation. I am not aware that the incidence is any higher in the IRA than it is in like size organisations or demographic groups. It's an opinion, I have no data to back it up, if you can enlighten us with data (not breathless 'I know of 40 cases'Regina Doherty allegations/what turned out to be fantasy/lies) work away on that one. Most armies if not all, require a thug element to engage in what they do...that is the reality the world over. They don't have special army police for nothing. The IRA was no different, I fully agree that thugs attached themselves. Good to see you agreeing that there is no way of knowing how much infiltration happened. I live in a border town well known as a republican stronghold, had several bombs during the troubles and notable participants living in it...I would know most people in it and around the area and I can genuinely say that all through the troubles I was never aware of one of these 'overlord' figures, controlling it. I think this is another myth blown out of proportion.
SafeSurfer wrote: » Was the murder of Tom Oliver "specific and targeted" or was he just a member of the community who happened to find an IRA arms dump on his land? How about Billy Fox? Was that "specific and targeted", which was vehemently denied by those who carried it out or was he a random member of the community murdered by the IRA? I gave examples. You ignored them and said I didn't give any examples. Difficult to argue with that. Are the protestants of Fermanagh a community? Have you even read the links, where members of communities describe their communities as living in fear? How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?
Here is your direct response to my post on the incidence of IRA informers, sexual abuse and community fear. All not just blown out of proportion but "myths" i.e. a widely held but false belief. I don't understand what you hope to achieve by trying to argue that communities didn't live in fear during the troubles. I really don't.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Ask the vast majority of the republican/nationalist community who have voted for them again and again and again since the GFA, what they 'achieved'. I.E. do some research in the real world.
Superfoods wrote: » So the PIRA achieved votes since the Good Friday Agreement. I thought the PIRA no longer existed? Or are you saying what we all know the PIRA/Sinn Fein is the same thing?
franciebrady wrote: Because if you indulge and persist in shouting out tropes and generalisations you can avoid facing certain realities...oldest one in the book and particularly indulged in by partitionists who would rather side with the most belligerent unionist than accept that the republican movement had achieved something. Tired nonsense tbh.
Superfoods wrote: » Knock yourself out.https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jean-mcconville-s-murder-the-boston-tapes-gerry-adams-and-the-ivor-bell-trial-1.4053933 Google "Gerry Adams The Disappeared" if you want some more information.
Still loads of people the PIRA won't tell the families where these people are buried
In the end, Mr Justice O’Hara took it out of the hands of the jury when he ruled that the two tapes featuring Bell were inadmissible. The judge was critical of the Belfast Project. He said that McIntyre had an agenda and was not a “neutral interviewer” in respect of Adams, the peace process and the Belfast Agreement. The issue of supposed confidentiality gave Bell the freedom to tell the truth but also to lie. He added that “while Mr Bell may have felt he was free to tell his version of the truth . . . the difficulty is he also may have felt free to lie, distort, exaggerate, blame and mislead”.He said McIntyre and Bell had a “clear bias and were out to get Gerry Adams”. He said the tapes would become public at the end of the trial and then “people can make up their own view”.
jm08 wrote: » edit: I note you didn't answer any of my other questions.
SafeSurfer wrote: » How about the Denis Faul interview. Someone at the heart of his community, who, on a daily basis shares that communities most important events, baptisms, weddings , funerals. Someone who the community shares their most intimate feelings with, who is their confessor. When he describes the community as "living in fear" and being "terrorised by the IRA should we disregard this in favour of your personal experience?
jm08 wrote: » There are three people who have not been found out of 16. They are: Robert Nairac Columba McVeigh Joe Lynskey
Superfoods wrote: » So 3 people to you is nothing? Suppose that is one view, the rest of the civilized World doesn't.
jm08 wrote: » Did I say it was nothing. It was just not loads of people as you claimed. (see your exact quote below). You then supply a link about Jean McConville who has been located. You then claimed that the PIRA won't tell the families which is a lie. Unfortunately there are three they cannot find (though I'm not sure if anyone is looking for Nairac's body. You seem to be unaware that there was this set up to locate them in 1999.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Commission_for_the_Location_of_Victims%27_Remains
McMurphy wrote: » Quite easily. The provos departed from the IRA who then became known as the official IRA. Their stance on who and what should be targeted was the reason for the split as far as I know.
Bishop of hope wrote: » It seems the dissidents evolved from the PIRA for much the same reason as the PIRA evolved from the OIRA. You can't seriously suggest one split from the other therefore must be connected, but stop these connections when the narrative doesn't fit. Doesn't make your original post right. The provos are distinct from the old IRA. Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein. There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.
Bishop of hope wrote: » Doesn't make your original post right. The provos are distinct from the old IRA. Sinn Féin as we know, it now is also distinct from the original Sinn Fein. There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.
Bishop of hope wrote: » There is of course a narrative that they aren't and that seeks to somehow justify continuation of the original struggle of both, but that's not the case.
FrancieBrady wrote: » A partitionist comfort blanket there particularly in the last paragraph.
jm08 wrote: » I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't actually understand what Fr Denis Faul actually said in his interview. I'll break it down into points for you and then you can go and read it when hopefully you will comprehend what he was actually saying. 1. The nationalist community (his flock) were reliant on the PIRA to keep law and order because the nationalist community had no trust in the RUC, the judicial system or the British Army. 2. He was critical of the British Goverment because as he said ''they never seem to even see the Northern Ireland community as a whole with its problems.'' He said that his hope lies with the Irish Government instead of the British Gov. 3. Fr Faul actually advocated that all republican prisoners should be just released in 1980 because they were unlikely to reoffend. Now, read the interview properly.https://www.rte.ie/archives/2019/1004/1081089-father-denis-faul/
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