Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

end of the road · 04-02-2020 8:49pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Are we talking here about the loss of one seat?

1 seat adds up when it's 1 seat per bus.

donvito99 · 04-02-2020 8:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

1 seat adds up when it's 1 seat per bus.

Do we know how many standees are accommodated yet?

Considering most buses in my experience are not exactly full despite passing full, the loss of a seat could be quickly reversed capacity wise by merely encouraging passengers to move down the bus and occupy all seats upstairs.

If the NTA are required to procure hybrid vehicles, I would prefer that they procure what is mechanically and ergonomically the best vehicle short one seat as opposed to a mangy vehicle liable to discourage people to travel by bus despite the same amount of seats as at present.

bk · 04-02-2020 9:00pm

end of the road wrote: »

1 seat adds up when it's 1 seat per bus.

But increased standing space, so it can carry per passengers per bus.

devnull · 04-02-2020 10:13pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Do we know how many standees are accommodated yet?

Considering most buses in my experience are not exactly full despite passing full, the loss of a seat could be quickly reversed capacity wise by merely encouraging passengers to move down the bus and occupy all seats upstairs.

If the NTA are required to procure hybrid vehicles, I would prefer that they procure what is mechanically and ergonomically the best vehicle short one seat as opposed to a mangy vehicle liable to discourage people to travel by bus despite the same amount of seats as at present.

The VT is the least efficient bus in the Dublin Bus fleet by far. Literally I've seen people from abroad point and laugh at how you can have such a big bus with one door and one staircase. There is a reason that nowhere else in Europe has done this so far and it's not because we are rocket scientists and the are not.

I have been on many VTs I have been sitting on seats toward the back upstairs and have seen person after person walk up the stairs, turn their head around, look down the front half of the bus and gone back downstairs, despite well into double figures of seats being free. Last year I even had a few occasions where the number of seats free were over 20 yet the bus started driving past stops where people were holding the hands out because it was 'full'. That is a problem.

Any benefits of the VTs are not realised because of their chronic, dreadful dwell times and the fact that even when you supply the extra seats, people just congregate at the front of the bus downstairs rather than going all the way to the back downstairs where there probably are seats, and people can't even be bothered to look for a seat properly upstairs, so you don't really make use of them anyway in my experience. I'm not saying that tri-axles are bad, just that if you are going to use them, you need to make sure that they are used to their potential and the fare and boarding system in Dublin doesn't do that, the same as the Bendy buses were completely unsuitable for such system too.

The one thing I do know is that from taking 46As at peak time in the past is that a journey is always slower on the VTs because of the chronic dwell time which probably means that any gain in capacity is lost by increased journey time and if you can have a fleet of 20 tri axles operating every 8 minutes or a fleet of 20 two axles operating every 6 minutes the increased capacity due to the increased frequency possible with the later is going to pretty much wipe out the additional per bus at a lower frequency and it is more likely that the capacity will be utlitised on the two axles rather than the three axles where it is more likely to be wasted by people not looking all the way to the back.

devnull · 04-02-2020 10:26pm

dfx- wrote: »

The 'expansion' has happened, but the 66s/13s/15s/39s/27s are still full near the city. Even the 24hr routes are busy, demand is up. It hasn't had the impact that it had been long promised that it would.

I would imagine that there is another round of capacity increases coming with the next lot of deliveries. The Dublin City bus network had the biggest expansion of services and frequency for a long time last year with approx 125 extra buses on the road. That is a big number and there are still more buses due to be delivered that were supposed to be delivered in 2019 but got delayed because of the administration of WrightBus.

That experience is nearly 30+ years old now with KDs and Ds/DFs. The RVs never broke down, even now the AXs rarely broke down and it's very rare to see a broken down EV/VG/VT. The early AVs did, but they were a brand new type. We've got to get over the unreliability of the KDs in the 21st century.

Some of the RVs were very ropey coming towards the end of their days but you would expect that. The AXs are 13 years old but in a couple of years time or so then I would imagine they will certainly be on the right hand side of the bathtub curve so yes, we can keep vehicles on longer than with the KDs, but I wouldn't want to be going beyond 14/15 years or so. The biggest problem with the older vehicles though is that they simply guzzle fuel and are bad for the climate.

the passenger is getting the same product in capacity (and NTA committing to 600 more of them!) and same chance of getting on board or indeed less as the demand goes up with the fare for the same seats and same quality of journey.

What do you want the NTA to do?
a) Keep buying diesel buses and order them in higher capacities and to hell with the climate, since climate change doesn't exist.
b) Buy the kind of hybrid vehicles they are buying in the longest possible version that a manufacturer believes is reliable.
c) Specify the new hybrid vehicles with seats for tiny people with minimum leg-room to fit more people in.
d) Buy unproven technology and hope for the best and risk the public moaning every day that their bus breaks down.

If the quality of journey on the modern SG vehicles that most patrons travel on was so bad, then surely you would not be seeing the passenger numbers going up and instead you would be seeing them crashing down, as after all you seem to suggest less seats = less passengers and worse quality journey and since every month almost for the last 5 years there has been less and less ALX400s and more and more SGs, you'd expect to see some effect of that if your hypothesis was true?

dfx- · 05-02-2020 1:48pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Are we talking here about the loss of one seat?

no, replacing the fleet as it stood in 2012, every AV/AX with an SG or GT loses ten seats per bus (6,500), replacing a VT is 25 seats per bus (1700), EV/VG is about 5 seats lost and there's 130ish of them (500+).

The buses have relatively all the same standing capacity, perhaps the VT could carry more standing but it's negligible. A full SG will hold 85ish in total, a full VT holds 110 or so. A full SG means people are up against the doors making exit through the centre doors no easier than the front.

But ultimately if you are waiting on a 39A for example, your chances of getting on board are considerably affected by whether it is a VT or SG coming your way.

bk · 05-02-2020 4:13pm

dfx- wrote: »

no, replacing the fleet as it stood in 2012, every AV/AX with an SG or GT loses ten seats per bus (6,500), replacing a VT is 25 seats per bus (1700), EV/VG is about 5 seats lost and there's 130ish of them (500+).

The buses have relatively all the same standing capacity, perhaps the VT could carry more standing but it's negligible. A full SG will hold 85ish in total, a full VT holds 110 or so. A full SG means people are up against the doors making exit through the centre doors no easier than the front.

Hold on there. The AV/AX are just 9.9m long, EV 10.2m and VG/GT 10.4m and SG 10.5m. These new Envrio400ER's will be 11m

So of course there is going to be overall more passenger capacity on these longer 400ER's

Of course the AV/AX's had more seats, as they didn't have the center door nor separate buggy bay. But they also had much less standing space. AV/AX's were just 15 standing, versus 27/28 for the SG's.

It is a trade off of course, less seats, but more passengers and more space for accessibility (buggies/wheelchairs) and better passenger flow through the middle door.

Here is the actual capacity of different models (upstairs seats | downstairs seats | standing | total):
AV/AX 49 + 27 + 15 = 91
EV 47 + 26 + 21 = 94
VG 45 + 28 + 15 = 88
GT 45 + 22 + 16 = 83
SG 45 + 22 + 28 = 95 (142 reg)

Obviously we will need to wait and see, but I'd assume the 400ER will be even slightly better then the SG given it is longer.

dowlingm · 05-02-2020 4:43pm

Think a key point in deciding whether a fleet replacement is a drop in capacity should also be the spares ratio. Will a given number of 400ERs be dispatchable on a given day when accounting for scheduled and unscheduled maintenance compared to what they are planned to replace? If the newer buses can maintain a lower spares ratio then you can (subject to drivers and NTA) look at adding service. If a higher spares ratio (because of more complex systems being finicky) then in addition to fewer seats you are now looking at retaining older buses to keep the show on the road...

dfx- · 05-02-2020 5:40pm

Where on earth do you fit 28 people standing on an SG. Is it a Tardis? Twelve more than a GT for 0.1m space.

20 on an EV is ambitious. 15 or so is a decent in service expectation with bags, buggies, shopping, wheelchairs, backpacks and all sorts of commuting paraphenalia. That brings it back towards a total of low 80s.

thenightman · 05-02-2020 7:55pm

dfx- wrote: »

Where on earth do you fit 28 people standing on an SG. Is it a Tardis? Twelve more than a GT for 0.1m space.

20 on an EV is ambitious. 15 or so is a decent in service expectation with bags, buggies, shopping, wheelchairs, backpacks and all sorts of commuting paraphenalia. That brings it back towards a total of low 80s.

13 including myself people standing on a SG this evening on the 17:00 69 and there was zero space available. Every time the bus lurched forward from a junction in the annoying/borderline dangerous way an SG does you'd be banging into your fellow standees.

People crammed standing in the middle door section too, meaning they're pretty pointless for getting off. People also standing up the aisle to the front door, making getting off an ordeal. Anyone who believes you could fit 28 standees needs to come back to reality, and anyone who believes you can tempt people onto public transport providing this level of service is seriously deluded.

4068ac1elhodqr · 05-02-2020 8:09pm

Probably been metioned, but is/was a hydrogen bus not worth looking into?

TfL are buying these in double decker format {Ryse Hydrogen}, made by Bramford after their takeover/bail out of Wright bus
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/hydrogen-powered-buses-tfl-wrightbus-ryse-air-quality-a9220531.html
Could be the world's 1st hydrogen double-decker for pubic use.

handlemaster · 05-02-2020 8:18pm

bk wrote: »

Most Hybrids do yes. The 400ER mentioned above certainly does.

The 400ER, that is great news, that is a top of the range modern Hybrid.

It has a relatively large 32kWh battery, that compares to just 2kWh battery that traditional hybrid buses use and is more then the original Nissan Leaf full EV car had (24kWh).

This means that the bus can actually run in pure EV mode for a few km and that this can be controlled by GPS. So for instance, they could set these up so that they only run in pure EV mode when in the city center. A great feature.

Only goes 2.5km on electric. I wont be getting excited

devnull · 05-02-2020 8:19pm

dfx- wrote: »

no, replacing the fleet as it stood in 2012, every AV/AX with an SG or GT loses ten seats per bus (6,500), replacing a VT is 25 seats per bus (1700), EV/VG is about 5 seats lost and there's 130ish of them (500+).

The Dublin City Bus fleet has a vast amount more capacity overall than it did in 2012. Any single digit percentage decrease in seats on a bus is hugely wiped out by a significant double figure percentage increase in the number of vehicles.

But ultimately if you are waiting on a 39A for example, your chances of getting on board are considerably affected by whether it is a VT or SG coming your way.

In theory where every seat is used yes, but we're talking about practice where the longer vehicle you have and the further away the seats are from the door, the least likely passengers are to take them. The simple fact is that on a VT the vast majority of times when a bus is claimed to be 'full' and abandoning people at the roadside there are double digit seats still with spaces, so in reality most of the time a full VT which is going past stops full only has a handful more passengers than an SG doing the same, but it has a slower journey time, chronic dwell time and if you used the same number of SGs you'd be able to provide a higher frequency due to less dwell time and being able to complete a route quicker which would mean you'd have a more frequent timetable with better utilized capacity rather than a less frequent one where the driver passes stops despite having double figures of seats free.

I'm not saying the VT is a bad bus, but if you have a bus that big you need to have either another staircase at the rear or another way to promote proper loading throughout the bus so you use it's potential such as having one in the middle, which is quite an engineering challenge and we don't have the infrastructure, bus stop or fare system to allow that anyway. There is a reason that nobody else has a triaxle with one door on a regular scheduled busy service with one staircase, and it's not because us Irish are better, we're actually far behind most mainland European countries.

The problem with load distribution is not just the case with buses though, so it's not just a bus thing it is the cases with trains as well where there is one entrance where the carriages nearest the entrance to the platform are packed and the ones furthest away have plenty of room. Try getting on a Stansted Express from Stansted AIrport at the front where everyone is tweeting on their phone about it being like sardines whilst you're on the same train at a front with only a handful of passengers on it. Trains can get around it normally though by using multiple platform entrances, having platforms at different places at different stations, using multiple doors to spread the load better and more modern trains use open walkthrough gangways with loading diagrams to promote this even more where this is possible.

devnull · 05-02-2020 8:30pm

Getting back directly on topic, these new vehicles are longer than SGs and are the longest length that ADL feel they can reliably build I reckon. Since these are hybrids it's quite obvious that more of the bus will need to be used for the systems to power such system which is why they didn't go for the standard length of 10.5m.

There are options in the deal for changing specification for future orders so perhaps when the technology has improved and a better range can be expected from longer vehicles that meets Dublin's needs, the length of the bus can be increased or the equipment will take up less space, meaning more seats can be fitted in.

AlekSmart · 05-02-2020 9:02pm

dfx- wrote: »

Where on earth do you fit 28 people standing on an SG. Is it a Tardis? Twelve more than a GT for 0.1m space.

20 on an EV is ambitious. 15 or so is a decent in service expectation with bags, buggies, shopping, wheelchairs, backpacks and all sorts of commuting paraphenalia. That brings it back towards a total of low 80s.

All of the Additional (Standing) Passenger numbers displayed at the entrances are NOTIONAL,as they are calculated upon the maximum plated weight and the ability of the vehicle to carry it.

Currently,EU legislation mandates 65Kg as the average weight of a Bus Passenger so our SG,650KG lighter unladen,can therefore accomodate 10 more additional passengers than a GT.

Additionally,the number of additional passengers is reduced by the number of Flip-Down seat occupants.

In any event,the number of additional passengers permitted to be carried is set out in the Statute Book.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

80. (1) A person shall not, subject to the provisions of sub-articles (2) and (3) of this article, cause or permit the number of passengers carried on a vehicle to exceed the number of persons for which passenger accommodation is provided.

(2) If and so long as three or more children under the age of 15 years are being carried on the vehicle, the number of such children shall be deemed to be reduced by one-third for the purposes of calculating the number of passengers carried.

(3) During hours of peak traffic, or in circumstances in which undue hardship would be caused to intending passengers if they were not carried, a greater number of passengers than that permissible under sub-article (1) of this article may be carried on an omnibus, subject to the following limitations:

(a) no additional passengers may be carried by virtue of this sub-article in the upper deck of a double deck omnibus, or in an omnibus having passenger accommodation for less than 15 persons;

(b) no additional passengers may be carried by virtue of this sub-article at any time while the omnibus is exceeding a speed of 40 miles per hour;

(c) the additional number of passengers carried in a single deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such omnibus, whichever is the less;

(d) the additional number of passengers carried in the lower deck of a double deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such lower deck, whichever is the less.

There is also the requirement imposed on a Driver regarding safety...

92 General duties of drivers and others.

92. (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at any time when his power of control over the vehicle or his field of view is seriously diminished, either by reason of his position in or on the vehicle, by reason of anything permanently or temporarily carried by the vehicle, or by reason of the position or number of the passengers in or on the vehicle, or for any other reason.

(2) A passenger in a vehicle in a public place shall not wilfully obstruct or impede the driver or, without reasonable cause, obstruct or interfere with the working of the vehicle or distract the driver's attention.

It is unfortunate that the regulations insist on the Statutory Notice being displayed in a conspicuous location,as the general public therefore only see the Headline Figure regarding Standees and expect that to be achieved....sigh....:(

Sadly,it underlines the often sizeable gap between Theory,and Practice.

Better Than Christ · 06-02-2020 3:48am

dfx- wrote: »

That experience is nearly 30+ years old now with KDs and Ds/DFs. The RVs never broke down, even now the AXs rarely broke down and it's very rare to see a broken down EV/VG/VT. The early AVs did, but they were a brand new type. We've got to get over the unreliability of the KDs in the 21st century.

My experience as a passenger on the 84 and 45 routes during the late '90s and early 2000s was that the 98-reg buses (I think they would have been RVs) allocated to those routes at the time were not reliable at all, even when new. They seemed to get stuck at bus stops all the time with air-pressure problems. The high-pitched 'ping ping ping' alarm would go off all the time. One bus in particular (I can still remember the reg - 98-D-20417) would randomly cut out several times on the same journey. Sometimes it would start up again, sometimes it wouldn't.

My experience from a year-and-a-half of mostly driving SG-type buses is that they're very rattly and their build quality is questionable, but I've only experienced two mechanical issues in that whole time. One was due to a coolant leak, and the other was an AdBlue fault that caused the bus to lose power.

d51984 · 13-02-2020 8:17pm

I always thought that if the staircase on the GT/SG models was located directly opposite the center doors, disembarkation would be much more efficient. I see it every day, people coming from upstairs and getting of at the front doors even though the center doors are open.

p_haugh · 13-02-2020 8:43pm

d51984 wrote: »

I always thought that if the staircase on the GT/SG models was located directly opposite the center doors, disembarkation would be much more efficient. I see it every day, people coming from upstairs and getting of at the front doors even though the center doors are open.

It doesn't help that there has been no enforcement at all of using the front doors for entrance only.

CatInABox · 14-02-2020 12:44pm

p_haugh wrote: »

It doesn't help that there has been no enforcement at all of using the front doors for entrance only.

Just recently a driver told me to use the front doors while getting off. What's the point in having them if you're not going to use them.

AlekSmart · 15-02-2020 2:44pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Just recently a driver told me to use the front doors while getting off. What's the point in having them if you're not going to use them.

There could ahve been some specific reason as to the non-use of the Centre Door.

Interestingly,as there are NO door-specific markings denoting ENTRY ONLY or EXIT ONLY on the current NTA Double Deck fleet,Drivers are powerless to direct passengers to ANY door.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Boarding-and-Alighting/

8. Where notices are exhibited on a vehicle indicating that a door shall be used for entrance and another door for exit (except in the case of an accident or other emergency or with the consent of an authorised person) a person shall not board or attempt to board the vehicle by the door indicated for exit or alight from or attempt to alight from the vehicle by the door indicated for entrance.

punisher5112 · 15-02-2020 4:47pm

Monitor for centre door do be broken or no picture, it is difficult then to see if anyone is in the doorway.

p_haugh · 17-02-2020 12:30am

I know it’s quite a while till these will begin to hit the streets, but I was wondering - what will the garage allocation be like for the initial batch? I assume they will be split between all/most the garages and not just all go to Conyngham Road?

dublinman1990 · 05-05-2020 8:45pm

You could be driving this on the 400 MMC's in OMSI 2 soon.

Gael23 · 05-05-2020 8:59pm

How much more fuel efficient are they?

BonnieSituation · 05-05-2020 9:04pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

You could be driving this on the 400 MMC's in OMSI 2 soon.

Need to fix that reg plate though.

punisher5112 · 05-05-2020 9:25pm

Gael23 wrote: »

How much more fuel efficient are they?

Meant to be about 30%

p_haugh · 07-08-2020 3:11pm

Somewhat related to this, turns out the NTA put out a tender in may for up to 200 fully electric single deck buses: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1291729050873077760?s=19

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 3:45pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Somewhat related to this, turns out the NTA put out a tender in may for up to 200 fully electric single deck buses: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1291729050873077760?s=19

Weird I thought we were getting the Alexander double decks.

devnull · 07-08-2020 4:09pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Weird I thought we were getting the Alexander double decks.

They are as well.

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 4:17pm

devnull wrote: »

They are as well.

Ah ok....

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

Comments