Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

4068ac1elhodqr · 05-02-2020 8:09pm

Probably been metioned, but is/was a hydrogen bus not worth looking into?

TfL are buying these in double decker format {Ryse Hydrogen}, made by Bramford after their takeover/bail out of Wright bus
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/motoring/hydrogen-powered-buses-tfl-wrightbus-ryse-air-quality-a9220531.html
Could be the world's 1st hydrogen double-decker for pubic use.

handlemaster · 05-02-2020 8:18pm

bk wrote: »

Most Hybrids do yes. The 400ER mentioned above certainly does.

The 400ER, that is great news, that is a top of the range modern Hybrid.

It has a relatively large 32kWh battery, that compares to just 2kWh battery that traditional hybrid buses use and is more then the original Nissan Leaf full EV car had (24kWh).

This means that the bus can actually run in pure EV mode for a few km and that this can be controlled by GPS. So for instance, they could set these up so that they only run in pure EV mode when in the city center. A great feature.

Only goes 2.5km on electric. I wont be getting excited

devnull · 05-02-2020 8:19pm

dfx- wrote: »

no, replacing the fleet as it stood in 2012, every AV/AX with an SG or GT loses ten seats per bus (6,500), replacing a VT is 25 seats per bus (1700), EV/VG is about 5 seats lost and there's 130ish of them (500+).

The Dublin City Bus fleet has a vast amount more capacity overall than it did in 2012. Any single digit percentage decrease in seats on a bus is hugely wiped out by a significant double figure percentage increase in the number of vehicles.

But ultimately if you are waiting on a 39A for example, your chances of getting on board are considerably affected by whether it is a VT or SG coming your way.

In theory where every seat is used yes, but we're talking about practice where the longer vehicle you have and the further away the seats are from the door, the least likely passengers are to take them. The simple fact is that on a VT the vast majority of times when a bus is claimed to be 'full' and abandoning people at the roadside there are double digit seats still with spaces, so in reality most of the time a full VT which is going past stops full only has a handful more passengers than an SG doing the same, but it has a slower journey time, chronic dwell time and if you used the same number of SGs you'd be able to provide a higher frequency due to less dwell time and being able to complete a route quicker which would mean you'd have a more frequent timetable with better utilized capacity rather than a less frequent one where the driver passes stops despite having double figures of seats free.

I'm not saying the VT is a bad bus, but if you have a bus that big you need to have either another staircase at the rear or another way to promote proper loading throughout the bus so you use it's potential such as having one in the middle, which is quite an engineering challenge and we don't have the infrastructure, bus stop or fare system to allow that anyway. There is a reason that nobody else has a triaxle with one door on a regular scheduled busy service with one staircase, and it's not because us Irish are better, we're actually far behind most mainland European countries.

The problem with load distribution is not just the case with buses though, so it's not just a bus thing it is the cases with trains as well where there is one entrance where the carriages nearest the entrance to the platform are packed and the ones furthest away have plenty of room. Try getting on a Stansted Express from Stansted AIrport at the front where everyone is tweeting on their phone about it being like sardines whilst you're on the same train at a front with only a handful of passengers on it. Trains can get around it normally though by using multiple platform entrances, having platforms at different places at different stations, using multiple doors to spread the load better and more modern trains use open walkthrough gangways with loading diagrams to promote this even more where this is possible.

devnull · 05-02-2020 8:30pm

Getting back directly on topic, these new vehicles are longer than SGs and are the longest length that ADL feel they can reliably build I reckon. Since these are hybrids it's quite obvious that more of the bus will need to be used for the systems to power such system which is why they didn't go for the standard length of 10.5m.

There are options in the deal for changing specification for future orders so perhaps when the technology has improved and a better range can be expected from longer vehicles that meets Dublin's needs, the length of the bus can be increased or the equipment will take up less space, meaning more seats can be fitted in.

AlekSmart · 05-02-2020 9:02pm

dfx- wrote: »

Where on earth do you fit 28 people standing on an SG. Is it a Tardis? Twelve more than a GT for 0.1m space.

20 on an EV is ambitious. 15 or so is a decent in service expectation with bags, buggies, shopping, wheelchairs, backpacks and all sorts of commuting paraphenalia. That brings it back towards a total of low 80s.

All of the Additional (Standing) Passenger numbers displayed at the entrances are NOTIONAL,as they are calculated upon the maximum plated weight and the ability of the vehicle to carry it.

Currently,EU legislation mandates 65Kg as the average weight of a Bus Passenger so our SG,650KG lighter unladen,can therefore accomodate 10 more additional passengers than a GT.

Additionally,the number of additional passengers is reduced by the number of Flip-Down seat occupants.

In any event,the number of additional passengers permitted to be carried is set out in the Statute Book.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1963/si/190/made/en/print

80. (1) A person shall not, subject to the provisions of sub-articles (2) and (3) of this article, cause or permit the number of passengers carried on a vehicle to exceed the number of persons for which passenger accommodation is provided.

(2) If and so long as three or more children under the age of 15 years are being carried on the vehicle, the number of such children shall be deemed to be reduced by one-third for the purposes of calculating the number of passengers carried.

(3) During hours of peak traffic, or in circumstances in which undue hardship would be caused to intending passengers if they were not carried, a greater number of passengers than that permissible under sub-article (1) of this article may be carried on an omnibus, subject to the following limitations:

(a) no additional passengers may be carried by virtue of this sub-article in the upper deck of a double deck omnibus, or in an omnibus having passenger accommodation for less than 15 persons;

(b) no additional passengers may be carried by virtue of this sub-article at any time while the omnibus is exceeding a speed of 40 miles per hour;

(c) the additional number of passengers carried in a single deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such omnibus, whichever is the less;

(d) the additional number of passengers carried in the lower deck of a double deck omnibus by virtue of this sub-article shall not exceed in number 8, or one-quarter of the passenger accommodation of such lower deck, whichever is the less.

There is also the requirement imposed on a Driver regarding safety...

92 General duties of drivers and others.

92. (1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at any time when his power of control over the vehicle or his field of view is seriously diminished, either by reason of his position in or on the vehicle, by reason of anything permanently or temporarily carried by the vehicle, or by reason of the position or number of the passengers in or on the vehicle, or for any other reason.

(2) A passenger in a vehicle in a public place shall not wilfully obstruct or impede the driver or, without reasonable cause, obstruct or interfere with the working of the vehicle or distract the driver's attention.

It is unfortunate that the regulations insist on the Statutory Notice being displayed in a conspicuous location,as the general public therefore only see the Headline Figure regarding Standees and expect that to be achieved....sigh....:(

Sadly,it underlines the often sizeable gap between Theory,and Practice.

Better Than Christ · 06-02-2020 3:48am

dfx- wrote: »

That experience is nearly 30+ years old now with KDs and Ds/DFs. The RVs never broke down, even now the AXs rarely broke down and it's very rare to see a broken down EV/VG/VT. The early AVs did, but they were a brand new type. We've got to get over the unreliability of the KDs in the 21st century.

My experience as a passenger on the 84 and 45 routes during the late '90s and early 2000s was that the 98-reg buses (I think they would have been RVs) allocated to those routes at the time were not reliable at all, even when new. They seemed to get stuck at bus stops all the time with air-pressure problems. The high-pitched 'ping ping ping' alarm would go off all the time. One bus in particular (I can still remember the reg - 98-D-20417) would randomly cut out several times on the same journey. Sometimes it would start up again, sometimes it wouldn't.

My experience from a year-and-a-half of mostly driving SG-type buses is that they're very rattly and their build quality is questionable, but I've only experienced two mechanical issues in that whole time. One was due to a coolant leak, and the other was an AdBlue fault that caused the bus to lose power.

d51984 · 13-02-2020 8:17pm

I always thought that if the staircase on the GT/SG models was located directly opposite the center doors, disembarkation would be much more efficient. I see it every day, people coming from upstairs and getting of at the front doors even though the center doors are open.

p_haugh · 13-02-2020 8:43pm

d51984 wrote: »

I always thought that if the staircase on the GT/SG models was located directly opposite the center doors, disembarkation would be much more efficient. I see it every day, people coming from upstairs and getting of at the front doors even though the center doors are open.

It doesn't help that there has been no enforcement at all of using the front doors for entrance only.

CatInABox · 14-02-2020 12:44pm

p_haugh wrote: »

It doesn't help that there has been no enforcement at all of using the front doors for entrance only.

Just recently a driver told me to use the front doors while getting off. What's the point in having them if you're not going to use them.

AlekSmart · 15-02-2020 2:44pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Just recently a driver told me to use the front doors while getting off. What's the point in having them if you're not going to use them.

There could ahve been some specific reason as to the non-use of the Centre Door.

Interestingly,as there are NO door-specific markings denoting ENTRY ONLY or EXIT ONLY on the current NTA Double Deck fleet,Drivers are powerless to direct passengers to ANY door.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Boarding-and-Alighting/

8. Where notices are exhibited on a vehicle indicating that a door shall be used for entrance and another door for exit (except in the case of an accident or other emergency or with the consent of an authorised person) a person shall not board or attempt to board the vehicle by the door indicated for exit or alight from or attempt to alight from the vehicle by the door indicated for entrance.

punisher5112 · 15-02-2020 4:47pm

Monitor for centre door do be broken or no picture, it is difficult then to see if anyone is in the doorway.

p_haugh · 17-02-2020 12:30am

I know it’s quite a while till these will begin to hit the streets, but I was wondering - what will the garage allocation be like for the initial batch? I assume they will be split between all/most the garages and not just all go to Conyngham Road?

dublinman1990 · 05-05-2020 8:45pm

You could be driving this on the 400 MMC's in OMSI 2 soon.

Gael23 · 05-05-2020 8:59pm

How much more fuel efficient are they?

BonnieSituation · 05-05-2020 9:04pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

You could be driving this on the 400 MMC's in OMSI 2 soon.

Need to fix that reg plate though.

punisher5112 · 05-05-2020 9:25pm

Gael23 wrote: »

How much more fuel efficient are they?

Meant to be about 30%

p_haugh · 07-08-2020 3:11pm

Somewhat related to this, turns out the NTA put out a tender in may for up to 200 fully electric single deck buses: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1291729050873077760?s=19

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 3:45pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Somewhat related to this, turns out the NTA put out a tender in may for up to 200 fully electric single deck buses: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1291729050873077760?s=19

Weird I thought we were getting the Alexander double decks.

devnull · 07-08-2020 4:09pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Weird I thought we were getting the Alexander double decks.

They are as well.

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 4:17pm

devnull wrote: »

They are as well.

Ah ok....

punisher5112 · 07-08-2020 4:18pm

Thought with ryno at the helm we would be getting nothing but bikes..

Peregrine · 07-08-2020 4:29pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Weird I thought we were getting the Alexander double decks.

Up to 600 hybrid double deckers with the initial order of 100 due to start delivery in the coming months (probably post October)
Up to 200 battery electric single deckers
3 hydrogen fuel cell double deckers (all going to BÉ)

GT89 · 07-08-2020 10:51pm

p_haugh wrote: »

Somewhat related to this, turns out the NTA put out a tender in may for up to 200 fully electric single deck buses: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1291729050873077760?s=19

They really need to stop appeasing the green agenda. Electric buses using lithium batteries mined using child labour in Africa more than likely. Emissions from public transport are not the issue car use is.

Ce he sin · 07-08-2020 11:09pm

GT89 wrote: »

They really need to stop appeasing the green agenda. Electric buses using lithium batteries mined using child labour in Africa more than likely. Emissions from public transport are not the issue car use is.

Lithium is being mined in Africa now? What happened to Australia and South America?

GT89 · 07-08-2020 11:30pm

Ce he sin wrote: »

Lithium is being mined in Africa now? What happened to Australia and South America?

What's the point electric buses can carry less than diesel buses due to the battery taking valuable passenger space and weight requirements. The NTA need to buy more tri axles or put the infrastructure in place for articulated vehicles not effing about with lower capacity hybrid and electric vehicles

Atlantic Dawn · 07-08-2020 11:43pm

Will they be poverty spec with no AC?

thenightman · 08-08-2020 1:01am

The fully electric airport shuttle mentioned is from Crowne Plaza Northwood to the Airport and nothing to do with NTA, rather it's something of an enthusiasts project from within the hotel group. From a different financial time too, in comparison to current stark financial reality for hospitality industry.

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 1:46am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Will they be poverty spec with no AC?

110% yes no a/c and cheapest crappiest seats they could find.... Driver is just a number .....

Luckily we don't get the London weather but still ....

Fogged up windows throughout the winter and a sweat box in the summer...... Doesn't help most sg pump heat always even if turned to cold.... Bone shakers, my bones can't keep taking it....

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 1:47am

thenightman wrote: »

The fully electric airport shuttle mentioned is from Crowne Plaza Northwood to the Airport and nothing to do with NTA, rather it's something of an enthusiasts project from within the hotel group. From a different financial time too, in comparison to current stark financial reality for hospitality industry.

What year is that?

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 1:48am

GT89 wrote: »

What's the point electric buses can carry less than diesel buses due to the battery taking valuable passenger space and weight requirements. The NTA need to buy more tri axles or put the infrastructure in place for articulated vehicles not effing about with lower capacity hybrid and electric vehicles

Not if on the roof but they are getting better with space I believe for doubles

Qrt · 08-08-2020 1:49am

Ce he sin wrote: »

Lithium is being mined in Africa now? What happened to Australia and South America?

I think it’s more the cobalt from the Congo.

Atlantic Dawn · 08-08-2020 1:51am

punisher5112 wrote: »

110% yes no a/c and cheapest crappiest seats they could find.... Driver is just a number .....

Luckily we don't get the London weather but still ....

Fogged up windows throughout the winter and a sweat box in the summer...... Doesn't help most sg pump heat always even if turned to cold.... Bone shakers, my bones can't keep taking it....

Seriously? Ffs, buses being bought by bloody idiots, probably the same arsehole who bought the DART carriages with seats too small for Europeans has moved on to bus buying, sespit kip of a country. Will mean having to open the windows to breath in toxic NOX emissions from one of the most diesel polluted cities in the world, you couldn't make it up. The buses are not fit for purpose.

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 1:52am

Sure solar panels and wind turbine blades are the next big bang

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 1:54am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Seriously? Ffs, buses being bought by bloody idiots, probably the same arsehole who bought the DART carriages with seats too small for Europeans has moved on to bus buying, sespit kip of a country. Will mean having to open the windows to breath in toxic NOX emissions from one of the most diesel polluted cities in the world, you couldn't make it up.

Even just for the driver, standard air it's only since GT that we could aim air away from the face when demisters were on....

Ice cold feet and eyes as dry as the Sahara before that....

Atlantic Dawn · 08-08-2020 1:57am

punisher5112 wrote: »

Even just for the driver, standard air it's only since GT that we could aim air away from the face when demisters were on....

Ice cold feet and eyes as dry as the Sahara before that....

It's clear the people buying the buses and trains never actually travel on them, they drive in to their CIE/Irish Rail free parking space and don't give a flying.

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 1:59am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's clear the people buying the buses and trains never actually travel on them.

Yes that's basically it and funnily people are taller now but seating space is tighter then ever.... It's actually like trying to fit into a Ryanair seat.. can't walk after.

Suspensions are absolutely shocking

GT89 · 08-08-2020 2:27am

Is having the assault screen closed and the holes sealed up due to covid making the cab much stuffier for drivers. Before covid most drivers had the assault half way down. I'd imagine this to keep the cab ventilated.

GT89 · 08-08-2020 2:28am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It's clear the people buying the buses and trains never actually travel on them, they drive in to their CIE/Irish Rail free parking space and don't give a flying.

NTA make the calls nowadays

Atlantic Dawn · 08-08-2020 2:30am

GT89 wrote: »

NTA make the calls nowadays

Any evidence they actually travel on them?

CatInABox · 08-08-2020 11:14am

p_haugh wrote: »

Somewhat related to this, turns out the NTA put out a tender in may for up to 200 fully electric single deck buses: https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1291729050873077760?s=19

Wonder if they're planning on running these on the new single decker only O-Route under BusConnects?

I had been wondering how they'd run this route and still try to reduce emissions, as a hybrid wouldn't work, the entire route is so populated that the diesel engine would never turn on

punisher5112 · 08-08-2020 11:37am

CatInABox wrote: »

Wonder if they're planning on running these on the new single decker only O-Route under BusConnects?

I had been wondering how they'd run this route and still try to reduce emissions, as a hybrid wouldn't work, the entire route is so populated that the diesel engine would never turn on

Well the double deck ones are using a generator set up so the engine doesn't power the wheels at all the electric motor does.

CatInABox · 08-08-2020 12:00pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Well the double deck ones are using a generator set up so the engine doesn't power the wheels at all the electric motor does.

Right now, the plan is for the hybrid buses to turn off their engine while they're in the most built up/emission prone areas, with the inner city presumably being one of them. The O-Route is essentially all inner city, so there'd be no where for the engine to turn on to recharge the batteries.

That's why I think these buses will be on the O-Route.

bk · 08-08-2020 12:07pm

GT89 wrote: »

What's the point electric buses can carry less than diesel buses due to the battery taking valuable passenger space and weight requirements. The NTA need to buy more tri axles or put the infrastructure in place for articulated vehicles not effing about with lower capacity hybrid and electric vehicles

That isn't true at all about single deck electric buses.

EV single deck buses have exactly the same passenger capacity as their Diesel counterparts. This is because the batteries on single deck EV's go on the roof of the bus, it takes up no space from the passenger cabin.

bk · 08-08-2020 12:13pm

This is great news and makes lots of sense.

Single deck EV buses are by now a well tested and proven technology. There are more then a thousand of them running around London everyday and they are hundreds of thousand of them in China (they make 10,000 every 6 weeks!).

Yes Double Decker EV's are more complicated and immature tech, so still a few years away for large scale use. The choice of a plug-in hybrid is a good choice for those for now. And tests hydrogen buses for longer distance BE type commuter routes makes a lot of sense too.

All round, seems like good decisions being made here.

And yes, I'd assume these would run on the O-Ring, makes lots of sense there and avoids issues from residents complaining about Diesel and noise from buses on the route.

AlmightyCushion · 08-08-2020 1:21pm

bk wrote: »

This is great news and makes lots of sense.

Single deck EV buses are by now a well tested and proven technology. There are more then a thousand of them running around London everyday and they are hundreds of thousand of them in China (they make 10,000 every 6 weeks!).

Yes Double Decker EV's are more complicated and immature tech, so still a few years away for large scale use. The choice of a plug-in hybrid is a good choice for those for now. And tests hydrogen buses for longer distance BE type commuter routes makes a lot of sense too.

All round, seems like good decisions being made here.

And yes, I'd assume these would run on the O-Ring, makes lots of sense there and avoids issues from residents complaining about Diesel and noise from buses on the route.

They'll just start complaining that they are too quiet then.

GT89 · 08-08-2020 11:53pm

bk wrote: »

That isn't true at all about single deck electric buses.

EV single deck buses have exactly the same passenger capacity as their Diesel counterparts. This is because the batteries on single deck EV's go on the roof of the bus, it takes up no space from the passenger cabin.

My bad but I also thought the weight requirements would mean it could carry less I could be wrong though. Althought more a general opinion of mine that the NTA need to look at higher capacity vehicles.

Personally I think the O route should operated BRT style using bendybuses with longer stops rather than using standard single deck buses. I think the NTA should be more focused on procuring high capacity vehicles either bendybuses or double deck tri axle buses with 3 entrances similar to those in use in Berlin or Singapore rather than standard size single deck and double deck vehicles. Something like this

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/news/2019/april/50-new-alexander-dennis-enviro500-double-deckers-for-singapore-in-new-three-door-two-staircase-layout/

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/media/news/2018/october/alexander-dennis-wins-berlin-contract-for-new-double-decker-fleet/

CatInABox · 09-08-2020 8:26am

GT89 wrote: »

My bad but I also thought the weight requirements would mean it could carry less I could be wrong though. Althought more a general opinion of mine that the NTA need to look at higher capacity vehicles.

Personally I think the O route should operated BRT style using bendybuses with longer stops rather than using standard single deck buses. I think the NTA should be more focused on procuring high capacity vehicles either bendybuses or double deck tri axle buses with 3 entrances similar to those in use in Berlin or Singapore rather than standard size single deck and double deck vehicles. Something like this

The tender is for long length single decker buses, plus they're to be configured for standing, with only 25 seats or so. The idea with the O-Route is that it's mainly for short hops, as once you combine it with the 90 minute switching ticket, there'll almost always be a better way of getting across town, i.e. you get the O-Route to a spine that brings you across the city.

bk · 09-08-2020 12:53pm

GT89 wrote: »

They really need to stop appeasing the green agenda. Electric buses using lithium batteries mined using child labour in Africa more than likely. Emissions from public transport are not the issue car use is.

On this subject, as others have pointed out, lithium is fine, the issue is Cobalt.

While this is a tender so we can't say for sure yet, the two most likely buses to be part of this tender do NOT use Lithium Ion Batteries, they actually use different battery technologies that contain NO Cobalt.

The two most likely contenders are probably *:
- ADL-BYD Enviro200EV - Iron Phosphate Battery
- Irizar i2e - Sodium Nickel Battery

Neither batteries include any Cobalt.

* I say these are the contenders based on the fact that these are the two single deck EV's operating with London Bus and pretty much the only option in the UK market. Of course a black horse option like Wrights, Optare, VanHool might come along. Having said that I'd be surprised if the Envrio200EV wasn't the front runner, given the NTA's order of 600 ADL Double Decker and given GoAhead operate over a hundred 200EV's in London and seem very happy with them.

Battery tech companies are making massive strides to greatly reduce or remove Cobalt from EV batteries.

BTW Here is something that will really surprise you. The second highest use of Cobalt in the world is in Oil Refineries. It is a key part of the process of converting Oil into Petrol/Diesel. So every time you fill you car/bus with Diesel it is making use of Cobalt.

bk · 09-08-2020 1:17pm

GT89 wrote: »

My bad but I also thought the weight requirements would mean it could carry less I could be wrong though.

No, not enough to make a difference.

Take the Enviro200EV, it comes in 3 different lengths, take the middle length, 10.8 meter long, takes 79 passengers. The closest comparison, the Wrigths Streelite at 10.2m used by GoAhead Ireland takes 75.

BTW the longest Enviro200EV is 12 meters long and can take 90 passengers.

Peregrine · 09-08-2020 1:40pm

Can the Enviro200EV charge from a 150kW power supply?

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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