Masks

GT89 · 03-08-2020 07:08PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

I heard that masks are now mandatory in parts of Spain OUTDOORS not just shops and public transport sounds like hell on earth I'm sure there's probably some on here that would support such a riddiculous policy

odyssey06 · 03-08-2020 07:15PM

GT89 wrote: »

I heard that masks are now mandatory in parts of Spain OUTDOORS not just shops and public transport sounds like hell on earth I'm sure there's probably some on here that would support such a riddiculous policy

I wouldn't support it here except in very specific circumstances such as concerts or spectators in a stadium or something like close quarter exercise instruction.
That's also a factor of the wind and temperature in Ireland which means there is usually airflow and convection to disperse droplets.

In a dead heat in Spain that equation could be a little different and droplets may not be dispersed even outdoors on city streets or promenades.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 03-08-2020 07:29PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The issue is not the absolute numbers it is the doubling in the last week.
This is entirely the wrong direction. Given the time lag with Covid you cannot afford to be relaxed about going in the wrong direction.

But the numbers are extremely low nevertheless. This mass hysteria over approx. 30 people, how many people have recovered in the same time frame?

odyssey06 · 03-08-2020 07:40PM

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

But the numbers are extremely low nevertheless. This mass hysteria over approx. 30 people, how many people have recovered in the same time frame?

Where's the mass hysteria?
You can't just throw out phrases like that without justification.

People remember the death count from Spring and don't want to see a repeat of that and a return to restrictions on everyday activities.

Wearing a mask on public transport and retail outlets is a minor personal inconvenience and a minor personal expense compared with Phase 1 and Phase 2 level restrictions etc
As a measure, its economic impact and costs are negligible compared with where we have been and where we could end up again.

If masks help to keep the numbers low it will be a very small price worth paying.

Charles Babbage · 03-08-2020 07:50PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

So can you say categorically that there is a correlation btw wearing masks and a reduction in cases?

Can you categorically that there is not?

WAW · 03-08-2020 08:14PM

joeguevara wrote: »

On the one hand you say the word ‘Covidiot’ (which I can’t stand as a word along with all the other word de jour alla maskzis etc but have no issue calling someone who follows every recognised medical experts advice as a religious zealot or words to that effect. Interestingly I have a full back tattoo of jesus’s crucifixion (on the tatto thread if you want to have a look) but I am as far from religious as humanly possible. How are you comfortable calling someone a religious zealot for simply following advice and trying to do their best to reduce virus transmission but take grave offence to a word that could equally be used to describe someone from either side of the argument.

What confuses me even more is you say that either me personally or at least someone who thinks mask wearing is appropriate is completely intolerant of general dissent and disagreement with your personal opinion is worrying. You are intolerant of the opinion of every medical expert who is in this field and have never even acknowledged that wearing a mask assists in decreasing virus droplets being spread by an infected person which even those who advocate not wearing a mask admit.

I have never heard any person who thinks masks are ineffectual give one concrete positive reason for not wearing one and assisting in decreasing infection. As you admitted yourself that advice changes, so if there is no benefit for not wearing one in reducing transmission and wearing one may (may being if your expert reassess their understanding, whereas actual experts who are actually leaders in their field as opposed to a fella in a white coat from Arkansas, have shown empirical proof that it does reduce transmission) reduce transmission so wear one in the off chance.

Again, the discussion which was the subject of your post about tension and arguments are from people demanding their god given rights not to wear a mask or someone who asks them not to infect others and an argument ensuing.

Now, if you park all of the above for a second, when I read that over 46000 people from designated high risk countries have come in to Ireland in the last 3 weeks with no requirement to quarantine, it makes me wonder what the fcuck is the point of anything and just let it blitz and see how the chips fall. But then only worry about things that you can control and wear a mask, wash hands frequently, don’t be on crowds for long periods. And hope that I get to actually spend time with my parents rather than a fleeting visit because of their age and certain other things. I worry every time one of them goes to buy groceries and someone not wearing a mask coughs in their direction because they have more knowledge than the experts.

I think that you must not have read my post. I'm not calling anyone a Covidiot. As regards zealot and intolerant well unfortunately for you your posts indicate that you have pretty much fulfilled the definition of those terms. I have no issue with people choosing to wear masks, following current HSE advice but nor do I have an issue with people who don't. I don't consider either idiots whether they agree or disagree with me. But someone who is so convinced of their stance as the one true way and those who choose not to believe as morons, well I call that person intolerant and like a religious zealot.
The advice will change again and again. Let people decide themselves.

Charles Babbage · 03-08-2020 08:24PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

But the numbers are extremely low nevertheless. This mass hysteria over approx. 30 people, how many people have recovered in the same time frame?

Whether or not the numbers are low, if they are doubling then they will soon change.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 08:28PM

No: I don't care enough

GT89 wrote: »

I heard that masks are now mandatory in parts of Spain OUTDOORS not just shops and public transport sounds like hell on earth I'm sure there's probably some on here that would support such a riddiculous policy

jogged outdoors in 102 F/ 38.9 C heat, 1 kilometer, wearing 10 masks - immediately after smoking a Black and Mild cigarillo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaMlNjzgj2E

Maybe the Spaniards just aren't a bunch of snowflakes.

robinph · 03-08-2020 08:49PM

No: I don't care enough

McGiver wrote: »

No - the schools have been closed!
What a surprise.

No they haven't. You must have missed the bit where I referred to the rest of the world.

UK primary schools were back at about 20% normal numbers for about 6 weeks, and Chinese schools were back before that as well. At least France and Denmark also had their schools back in some form and I'd assume there were some other countries around the world doing similar.

Don't recall seeing anything about outbreaks being linked to schools anywhere though. There was some cases of schools closing after a kid tested positive, but that being from them getting infected from their families, not from the school.

If there was infections spreading in the schools you'd expect the teaching unions to be all over it, but not aware of it which is why I was asking.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 08:50PM

No: I don't care enough

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Complete side note, but is it just me or is Boards fooked yet again this weekend? Threads jumping back pages, errors etc? (on Touch and Desktop)

Thread in feedback about it. A couple hamsters took a bank holiday vacation and will be back tomorrow presumably. At least one of the load-sharing servers appears to be desynced so it keeps loading the site in the state it was late Saturday night, refreshing will usually get you back to one of the synced servers.

GT89 · 03-08-2020 08:54PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Overheal wrote: »

jogged outdoors in 102 F/ 38.9 C heat, 1 kilometer, wearing 10 masks - immediately after smoking a Black and Mild cigarillo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaMlNjzgj2E

Maybe the Spaniards just aren't a bunch of snowflakes.

So you suppkrt masks outdoors

Away With The Fairies · 03-08-2020 08:58PM

Yes: valved

GT89 wrote: »

So you suppkrt masks outdoors

I don't think they said that. It just shows a guy who can smoke a cigar, put on 10 masks and run 1km with them on in 38 degrees heat and he didn't die. It really shows that one mask isn't going to kill you.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 03-08-2020 08:58PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Can you categorically that there is not?

Why are you asking me to prove a negative. You need to show the justification for face masks if you want people to use them.

There is no co-relation btw wearing face masks and a reduction in the number of cases which is the whole argument behind wearing face masks.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 09:01PM

No: I don't care enough

GT89 wrote: »

So you suppkrt masks outdoors

Spain decided on it, and this lad showed the surgical masks are more than safe to wear in similar heat.

In both cases they make a mockery of your history on the thread whinging about how hard it is to breathe/maintain concentration wearing a mask in a light duty, indoor shopkeeping job. In Ireland. I'd be freezing if I ran my AC as low as it is outdoors for yous.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 09:02PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

Why are you asking me to prove a negative. You need to show the justification for face masks if you want people to use them.

It's been shown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Na3gjzADw

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/05/04/cough-coronavirus-masks-kaye-pkg-vpx.cnn

Away With The Fairies · 03-08-2020 09:07PM

Yes: valved

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

Why are you asking me to prove a negative. You need to show the justification for face masks if you want people to use them.

There is no co-relation btw wearing face masks and a reduction in the number of cases which is the whole argument behind wearing face masks.

Here's the justification you want

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent#:~:text=One%20category%20of%20evidence%20comes,various%20masks%20to%20block%20them.&text=Another%20study%20of%20people%20who,emitted%20in%20droplets%20and%20aerosols.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 03-08-2020 09:07PM

Overheal wrote: »

It's been shown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Na3gjzADw

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/05/04/cough-coronavirus-masks-kaye-pkg-vpx.cnn

A reduction in the number of cases or reduces transmission?

Charles Babbage · 03-08-2020 09:11PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

Why are you asking me to prove a negative. You need to show the justification for face masks if you want people to use them.

Masks have had a contribution to the prevention of infection for 150 years, their value is accepted. So if you are arguing that they do not have value in this specific situation then you need data.

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odyssey06 · 03-08-2020 09:11PM

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

Why are you asking me to prove a negative. You need to show the justification for face masks if you want people to use them.
There is no co-relation btw wearing face masks and a reduction in the number of cases which is the whole argument behind wearing face masks.

That's not the whole argument, but even if it were...
Explain how Japan has less deaths than Ireland with 20 times the population.
Explain how Czech Republic has a fifth of the deaths of Ireland with twice the population.
You won't be able to do it without reference to masks.

Explain how cases in health and care settings in Ireland dropped significantly after a general policy of mask usage was adopted.
Explain how the US CDC were wrong to cite difference in case growths in 15 states which rolled out mask policies as a reason for changing their guidance on masks.

And that's not the whole argument.
Explain how the the studies which show that masks and cloth coverings reduce droplets produced are flawed.
Explain the CDC were wrong to cite case studies which show that hairdressers and passengers who wore masks did not infect others.

This evidence has been quoted and cited and sourced numerous times on this thread.
In contrast, you have no argument. Nothing.

davegilly · 03-08-2020 09:14PM

Every time I go into a shop and see some absolute fcuktard moron not wearing a face covering I get this urge to punch them square in the face. Science or not.

_Kaiser_ · 03-08-2020 09:21PM

davegilly wrote: »

Every time I go into a shop and see some absolute fcuktard moron not wearing a face covering I get this urge to punch them square in the face. Science or not.

Ok, let's analyse this... why is that?

Is it because you genuinely feel that they are infected and putting you at risk?
Is it that you feel they are "getting away" with something you aren't?
Is it because "those are the rules"?

If the first, were you masked up prior to 2 weeks ago? If not, why not?

Away With The Fairies · 03-08-2020 09:27PM

Yes: valved

I've seen the smartest kid in a shop today. About 5 years old, going around the shop with their parents wearing a face mask. When they got out to their car, their safe place, the kid took off their mask.

5 years old and can wear a mask inside a shop and didn't make a fuss and knows they can take it off outside the shop.

one armed dwarf · 03-08-2020 09:28PM

No: other

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

But the numbers are extremely low nevertheless. This mass hysteria over approx. 30 people, how many people have recovered in the same time frame?

I genuinely don't get this. The more who catch it, the more they can infect individually. That 30 cases per day figure can grow if there aren't any mitigations to keep it under check. It's not mass hysteria over 30 people, it's concern at the growth rate of that daily number and wanting to keep it at a low rate of reproduction.

That's the whole point of this. It's an exercise in finding ways to prevent the daily figure from going out of our control. It's extremely easy to understand. Unchecked the virus rate of reproduction isn't linear! That is why the number doubling to another 'low' number is alarming in itself cause it is an indication of a possible trend.

There is no point in waiting for that to happen before implementing small measures like wearing masks. And as far as other countries goes it is not wrong to look at data from them on this, it's not as if they got hit by a different virus than us.

Perspective!

robinph · 03-08-2020 09:36PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

But the numbers are extremely low nevertheless. This mass hysteria over approx. 30 people, how many people have recovered in the same time frame?

Over the last 5 days how many other people have those 30 been in close proximity to? What about the 30 who will test positive tomorrow? Have you already tracked down all the people who will tomorrow interact with the people who will test positive on Saturday? What about the people who they will interact with on Wednesday before they then test positive on Monday?

Or people could just wear a mask and stop the majority of those transmissions happening in the first place.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 09:53PM

No: I don't care enough

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ok, let's analyse this... why is that?

Is it because you genuinely feel that they are infected and putting you at risk?
Is it that you feel they are "getting away" with something you aren't?
Is it because "those are the rules"?

If the first, were you masked up prior to 2 weeks ago? If not, why not?

I've been masked up for months and it's the first. These idiots are endangering lives.

Overheal · 03-08-2020 09:55PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

A reduction in the number of cases or reduces transmission?

The two are inextricable.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 03-08-2020 09:58PM

davegilly wrote: »

Every time I go into a shop and see some absolute fcuktard moron not wearing a face covering I get this urge to punch them square in the face. Science or not.

I’ll informed and ignorant people usually lash out violently because they don’t have the vocabulary or intelligence to express themselves.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 03-08-2020 10:00PM

robinph wrote: »

Over the last 5 days how many other people have those 30 been in close proximity to? What about the 30 who will test positive tomorrow? Have you already tracked down all the people who will tomorrow interact with the people who will test positive on Saturday? What about the people who they will interact with on Wednesday before they then test positive on Monday?

Or people could just wear a mask and stop the majority of those transmissions happening in the first place.

27 of those 30 were not communal infections i.e. masks made no difference.

Next.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 03-08-2020 10:02PM

one armed dwarf wrote: »

I genuinely don't get this. The more who catch it, the more they can infect individually. That 30 cases per day figure can grow if there aren't any mitigations to keep it under check. It's not mass hysteria over 30 people, it's concern at the growth rate of that daily number and wanting to keep it at a low rate of reproduction.

That's the whole point of this. It's an exercise in finding ways to prevent the daily figure from going out of our control. It's extremely easy to understand. Unchecked the virus rate of reproduction isn't linear! That is why the number doubling to another 'low' number is alarming in itself cause it is an indication of a possible trend.

There is no point in waiting for that to happen before implementing small measures like wearing masks. And as far as other countries goes it is not wrong to look at data from them on this, it's not as if they got hit by a different virus than us. We know enough about how it spreads that it will have the same pattern of behaviour here given the same opportunity to do so

Perspective!

9 out of 10 infections are not communal. There’s your perspective.

robinph · 03-08-2020 10:04PM

No: I don't care enough

Kendrick Jolly Ibex wrote: »

27 of those 30 were not communal infections i.e. masks made no difference.

Next.

So you still don't know who they were interacting with for the past week then.

I agree that the far bigger risk for infection is through the home and workplace, but for the sake of a bit of cloth over your face for 5 minutes why wouldn't you cover yourself up?

Masks

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