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How will schools be able to go back in September?

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Comments

  • #9242
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Mary has been doing it for years and yet You dont seem to classify them as a team of crack cleaners?

    Has mary used a fogger before?
    Do they know what additional surfaces she will have to now clean with the reviewed enhanced cleaning programme determined?
    Will she know how often to do each surface and the correct concentration of each chemical to use?
    Does she know how to protect herself when cleaning?
    If Mary's sick are there procedures that her sister can follow if she needs to step in to the role to cover?

    What is the school spending the funding for enhanced cleaning on?

    You have told us you have 7 months of pandemic cleaning experience so how about telling us how us you would go about cleaning a classroom, given the fact that Mary will not be getting fogger but may get gloves and a mask.

    The truth of the matter is that the risk for schools has been played down in the media and for the public as we need to get schools reopened to get the economy back up and running. We have studies and reports citing children can spread the virus but these have been virtually ignored by the DOE.

    Mary may get new cleaning products so she can clean the school more during the week but there will be nothing phenominal happening there.

    So Mary has a mop and bucket, and a floor polisher and sweeping brush and cleaning products.

    How would you clean the school with those?

    If you are here to help well help


  • #9243
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    khalessi wrote: »
    You have told us you have 7 months of pandemic cleaning experience so how about telling us how us you would go about cleaning a classroom, given the fact that Mary will not be getting fogger but may get gloves and a mask.

    The truth of the matter is that the risk for schools has been played down in the media and for the public as we need to get schools reopened to get the economy back up and running. We have studies and reports citing children can spread the virus but these have been virtually ignored by the DOE.

    Mary may get new cleaning products so she can clean the school more during the week but there will be nothing phenominal happening there.

    So Mary has a mop and bucket, and a floor polisher and sweeping brush and cleaning products.

    How would you clean the school with those?

    It's up to each individual school to determine what the funding will be spent on. If they determine that the preference is to pay for extra hours for a cleaner rather than more efficient equipment, that is thier decision.

    450 euro for a fogger would be a good investment


    https://www.medical-supply.ie/2020/05/27/disinfectant-sprayer-fogger/


  • #9244
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    It's up to each individual school to determine what the funding will be spent on. If they determine that the preference is to pay for extra hours for a cleaner rather than more efficient equipment, that is thier decision.

    450 euro for a fogger would be a good investment


    https://www.medical-supply.ie/2020/05/27/disinfectant-sprayer-fogger/

    Lovely cop out, Mary isnto getting a fogger. I can tell you that now.


    So help, give a step by step guide. what cleaning products do you suggest?


  • #9245
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    khalessi wrote: »
    Lovely cop out, Mary isnto getting a fogger. I can tell you that now.


    So help, give a step by step guide.

    Lovely cop out, shes not getting one and thats it. Very rigid thinking there but i have have faith that most schools will be assessing thier effectiveness and purchasing them if they determine them appropriate.

    You should also be shouting for them because they address airborne particles too.


  • #9246
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    I agree it would be a good investment though a school would likely need several in addition to more cleaners/extended cleaner hours.
    To go from cleaning the toilets and sweeping the floors and a weekly wash of the corridors to also having to thoroughly clean every desk, chair, door handle, window sill etc. as well as clean equipment, resources and toys is going to involve a huge increase in cleaning hours, whatever equipment is used. Plus the fact that the fogger has to be filled with particular types of detergents, not just the cheapest one that can be found.


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  • #9247
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Lovely cop out, shes not getting one and thats it. Very rigid thinking there but i have have faith that most schools will be assessing thier effectiveness and purchasing them if they determine them appropriate.

    You should also be shouting for them because they address airborne particles too.

    Listen schools have been shouting for years, about conditions of bulidings etc and the reason we are in this mess is because no one listened. a fogger would be great but I can tell you that it wont be bought as the money will be needed elsewhere.

    You were asked a direct question and didnt answer.

    Let me ask more

    So you walk into a room Alrigghty then and you are going to clean it.

    The room is 42sq metres, it has 15 tables and an office desk, one cupboard and 5 noticeboards. HOw are you going to clean it? You havent got a fogger

    WHat proctocols have you been using over the last 7 months?

    What clothes are you wearing?
    What cleaning products are you using?
    Where do you start first.
    What is the protocol you use?

    This could help as at least I could show it to management and say this is what they are doing elsewhere.


  • #9248
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    It's up to each individual school to determine what the funding will be spent on. If they determine that the preference is to pay for extra hours for a cleaner rather than more efficient equipment, that is thier decision.

    450 euro for a fogger would be a good investment


    https://www.medical-supply.ie/2020/05/27/disinfectant-sprayer-fogger/

    450 euro is more than a weeks cleaning in my school. That's the practical reality of what we have.


  • #9249
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    khalessi wrote: »
    Listen schools have been shouting for years, about conditions of bulidings etc and the reason we are in this mess is because no one listened. a fogger would be great but I can tell you that it wont be bought as the money will be needed elsewhere.

    You were asked a direct question and didnt answer.

    Let me ask more

    So you walk into a room Alrigghty then and you are going to clean it.

    The room is 42sq metres, it has 15 tables and an office desk, one cupboard and 5 noticeboards. HOw are you going to clean it? You havent got a fogger

    WHat proctocols have you been using over the last 7 months?

    What clothes are you wearing?
    What cleaning products are you using?
    Where do you start first.
    What is the protocol you use?

    This could help as at least I could show it to management and say this is what they are doing elsewhere.

    Add in two toilets shared between two classes as well into the mix.


  • #9250
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Murple wrote: »
    I agree it would be a good investment though a school would likely need several in addition to more cleaners/extended cleaner hours.
    To go from cleaning the toilets and sweeping the floors and a weekly wash of the corridors to also having to thoroughly clean every desk, chair, door handle, window sill etc. as well as clean equipment, resources and toys is going to involve a huge increase in cleaning hours, whatever equipment is used. Plus the fact that the fogger has to be filled with particular types of detergents, not just the cheapest one that can be found.

    No matter what, extra cleaning with cost time and effort.


    The funding being provided for additional cleaning is as follows for secondary schools


    Post Primary schools supplemental Covid Grant for
    cleaning costs
    Pupil Enrolment Mainstream
    200 €6,600
    400 €13,200
    600 €19,800
    800 €26,400

    The role of the staff at the school will be to determine the most effective and efficient methods of cleaning and spend the money wisely.


  • #9251
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    khalessi wrote: »
    Listen schools have been shouting for years, about conditions of bulidings etc and the reason we are in this mess is because no one listened. a fogger would be great but I can tell you that it wont be bought as the money will be needed elsewhere.

    You were asked a direct question and didnt answer.

    Let me ask more

    So you walk into a room Alrigghty then and you are going to clean it.

    The room is 42sq metres, it has 15 tables and an office desk, one cupboard and 5 noticeboards. HOw are you going to clean it? You havent got a fogger

    WHat proctocols have you been using over the last 7 months?

    What clothes are you wearing?
    What cleaning products are you using?
    Where do you start first.
    What is the protocol you use?

    This could help as at least I could show it to management and say this is what they are doing elsewhere.

    I have answered this question a few times

    Additional cleaning of commonly touched items followed by sanitser
    Dishwasher for smaller equipment. Any non easily cleaned equipment removed.
    Fogging of all areas in addition to routine cleaning
    Routine cleaning and sanitstisation

    I could manage to implement that in most schools for less than the 19800 they are offering a school with 600 pupils.


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  • #9252
    kandr10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,601 ✭✭✭kandr10


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Add in two toilets shared between two classes as well into the mix.

    What luxury!


  • #9253
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »

    I could manage to implement that in most schools for less than the 19800 they are offering a school with 600 pupils.

    Outline the implementation of it so with costings and we can go back to our schools with it to help them.


  • #9254
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    No matter what, extra cleaning with cost time and effort.


    The funding being provided for additional cleaning is as follows for secondary schools


    Post Primary schools supplemental Covid Grant for
    cleaning costs
    Pupil Enrolment Mainstream
    200 €6,600
    400 €13,200
    600 €19,800
    800 €26,400

    The role of the staff at the school will be to determine the most effective and efficient methods of cleaning and spend the money wisely.

    It's not the role of the staff of a school to determine the most effective and efficient methods of cleaning. It is the role of the staff to prepare to teach and do that.
    You refuse to see any point of view outside of your own. You don't meet anyone half way. But even so, surely you can understabd that money is not self replicating. It can only stretch so far. No point in having fogger machines if there's no one to operate them. They won't clean dirt so all the regular cleaning will still have to be done. The floors will still have to washed as will the sinks, toilets and the tables. Chairs will also have to be added in to this. Cleaning supplies will have to be provided for all of this as well as hand sanitiser (any idea how much 500 people will go through in a week), paper towels, masks, visors and gloves in case a child is ill or injured.
    It's very easy for you to be so glib in saying it will require time and effort. Bottom line is it will require money and people.
    You say you could do it for less than is granted. You also proposed a classroom layout a few days ago- how successful was that?
    Easy to say you can do it when you are coming from a different environment altogether.


  • #9255
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,457 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    khalessi wrote: »
    The room is 42sq metres, it has 15 tables and an office desk, one cupboard and 5 noticeboards. HOw are you going to clean it? You havent got a fogger

    Well according to the manufacturer you still have to clean even if you use a "fogger".
    However, it is important to note that disinfectant fogging/misting does not replace the need for manual cleaning procedures but, instead, acts as an additional step in implementing an effective infection control protocol


  • #9256
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Is Mary the new Karen?

    Mary,invariably, is an old Karen


  • #9257
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Murple wrote: »
    It's not the role of the staff of a school to determine the most effective and efficient methods of cleaning. It is the role of the staff to prepare to teach and do that.
    You refuse to see any point of view outside of your own. You don't meet anyone half way. But even so, surely you can understabd that money is not self replicating. It can only stretch so far. No point in having fogger machines if there's no one to operate them. They won't clean dirt so all the regular cleaning will still have to be done. The floors will still have to washed as will the sinks, toilets and the tables. Chairs will also have to be added in to this. Cleaning supplies will have to be provided for all of this as well as hand sanitiser (any idea how much 500 people will go through in a week), paper towels, masks, visors and gloves in case a child is ill or injured.
    It's very easy for you to be so glib in saying it will require time and effort. Bottom line is it will require money and people.
    You say you could do it for less than is granted. You also proposed a classroom layout a few days ago- how successful was that?
    Easy to say you can do it when you are coming from a different environment altogether.



    The specific advice in relation to school cleaning is set out in the HSPC health advice for schools and will be covered in the induction training. This advice sets out the cleaning regime required to support schools to prevent COVID-19 infections and the enhanced cleaning required in the event of a suspected cases of COVID-19. Schools are asked to carefully read and understand the cleaning advice and to apply that to all areas of the school as appropriate.

    Schools are reminded to take particular care of the hygiene arrangements for hand washing and toilet facilities.

    In summary, each school setting should be cleaned at least once per day. Additional cleaning if available should be focused on frequently touched surfaces – door handles, hand rails, chairs/arm rests, communal eating areas, sink and toilet facilities.

    All staff will have access to cleaning products and will be required to maintain cleanliness of their own work area. Under no circumstances should these cleaning materials be removed from the building


  • #9258
    dbrunson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭dbrunson


    Has anyone seen the new guidelines? Just wondering is there anything relating to schools asking parent ms to give lifts to matches etc, I am dropping kids to various match’s at least once a month ( I have two kids in primary ) no issue doing it but wonder about the coming year..


  • #9259
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    5 week waiting list for single desks.

    Building works won't have started before return date.

    Joys of late issuing guidelines late


  • #9260
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,248 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    5 week waiting list for single desks.

    Building works won't have started before return date.

    Joys of late issuing guidelines late

    Planning should have all been started in March . A task force put in place by the DoE straight away and plans in place for different scenarios . Plans for full opening , for partial opening and for no opening . They had 5 months to get it right and now its a shambles


  • #9261
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »

    All staff will have access to cleaning products and will be required to maintain cleanliness of their own work area. Under no circumstances should these cleaning materials be removed from the building

    Work area in this context refers to the teacher desk and not the classroom. Especially important with shared work spaces in secondary now seeing the teachers won't have bases classrooms anymore.


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  • #9262
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    dbrunson wrote: »
    Has anyone seen the new guidelines? Just wondering is there anything relating to schools asking parent ms to give lifts to matches etc, I am dropping kids to various match’s at least once a month ( I have two kids in primary ) no issue doing it but wonder about the coming year..

    I'm assuming all inter school activities won't be happening this coming school year.


  • #9263
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Work area in this context refers to the teacher desk and not the classroom. Especially important with shared work spaces in secondary now seeing the teachers won't have bases classrooms anymore.

    It's a collaborative effort. Where is the teachers desk? It's in the classroom.


  • #9264
    Benimar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭Benimar


    dbrunson wrote: »
    Has anyone seen the new guidelines? Just wondering is there anything relating to schools asking parent ms to give lifts to matches etc, I am dropping kids to various match’s at least once a month ( I have two kids in primary ) no issue doing it but wonder about the coming year..

    The FAI Return to play protocol says all underage players are to be dropped off at training/match by a member of own household (or make their own way if old enough).

    Not sure about the GAA one tbh.


  • #9265
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    It's a collaborative effort. Where is the teachers desk? It's in the classroom.

    Jesus you'd argue black is white.


  • #9266
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Benimar wrote: »
    The FAI Return to play protocol says all underage players are to be dropped off at training/match by a member of own household (or make their own way if old enough).

    Not sure about the GAA one tbh.

    GAA is the same.

    Question related to school matches but I personally don't expect to take place this year.


  • #9267
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »

    I could manage to implement that in most schools for less than the 19800 they are offering a school with 600 pupils.

    We are all waiting to hear how Mr “I got a payrise because I’m a Covid expert” is going to do this. The stage is yours.


  • #9268
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    s1ippy wrote: »
    Aside from resignation, what are the options for at-risk teachers and SNAs who cannot safely return? It was asked and not answered here:

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-07-30/12/?highlight%5B0%5D=covid

    There’s a circular due. Expect it on a Friday at 16.57.


  • #9269
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    We are all waiting to hear how Mr “I got a payrise because I’m a Covid expert” is going to do this. The stage is yours.

    I have explained this in a couple of posts now??? See my post from 2PM


  • #9270
    Murple
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 337 ✭✭Murple


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    I have explained this in a couple of posts now??? See my post from 2PM

    You said you could in the post from 2pm.
    Saying you could and outlining how you could with facts and figures are two very different things.
    Imagine I was tendering a building job and I contact two builders , let’s call them Pete and Dave. Pete gives me a breakdown of costs and expenses and says he could it for €19,800. Dave rocks up and says sure I could do it for less than that but has nothing to back it up (apart from a very dodgy description of how he thinks it might look but with obvious issues with measurement and spacing).
    Who do I choose? Decisions, decisions.


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  • #9271
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Murple wrote: »
    You said you could in the post from 2pm.
    Saying you could and outlining how you could with facts and figures are two very different things.
    Imagine I was tendering a building job and I contact two builders , let’s call them Pete and Dave. Pete gives me a breakdown of costs and expenses and says he could it for €19,800. Dave rocks up and says sure I could do it for less than that but has nothing to back it up (apart from a very dodgy description of how he thinks it might look but with obvious issues with measurement and spacing).
    Who do I choose? Decisions, decisions.

    Measurement and spacing issues are covered under the small works grant, not the enhanced cleaning grant


This discussion has been closed.
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