How will schools be able to go back in September?

Murple · 31-07-2020 01:54AM

I caught the end of an interview with Prof Luke O' Neill who was asked about the plans for reopening schools. He seemed happy with them and said we were following 'best practice' measures of social distancing, hand washing, wearing masks (think he must have read a different document to the one I read). He also said many other countries had put these measures in place to reopen schools, naming Japan and Uraguay, and we would be following their measures.

Just for interest, the article below details measures in place in Japan. There's an accompanying video. You'll notice that the classroom is very spacious and only half the class is in at a time. You may also notice all the children wearing masks in class. Temperatures taken every day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japan-coronavirus-schools-reopen/2020/06/06/9047be8c-a645-11ea-8681-7d471bf20207_story.html

I read another article that mentioned Uraguay. The accompanying photo showed all the children wearing masks and only half the class was in. Another article reported school days being less than 4 hours and attendance staggered to ensure minimum distance so diff RTÉ groups would come in on different days.

What we are suggesting- no social distancing for 4-8 year olds, 1m when possible for other children. No masks necessary except on the school bus or if the room is a certain size and you have over a certain number of pupils and you can't get 1m between them (but only in secondary it seems). No taking of temperatures necessary.

Incidental information- Japan has a population of over 126 million. They have recorded over 33,000 cases and just over 1,000 deaths.
Uraguay has a population of 3.4 million. They have recorded 1,243 cases and 35 deaths.
Ireland- population 4.9 million. We have recorded just over 26,000 cases and over 1,700 deaths.

I would love these immunologists, epidemiologists, NPHET, the CMO and others, esp. Clara Kelly and Pat Kenny, to visit our schools in September, not new builds or DEIS schools with small numbers in a class but the regular run of the mill schools with large class sizes and small rooms. They can wear a mask to ensure they don't potentially infect the pupils. Let them see what it is like in an Irish classroom with the arrangements in place. Let them make their judgement then as to how safe it is.

I want to get back to the school building and back to teaching my pupils. I miss them. I miss the work I do. I miss being with the children. But the current plans are madness. At the very least, they should have announced half attendance for September or to midterm. Review numbers and infection rates. Get flu vaccinations done for all children and school staff. If all was going well, increase to full attendance. If numbers were rising, keep it at half attendance. I keep hearing about 'well if other countries can do it, why can't we?'. So many other countries are doing half attendance - well if other countries can do it, why can't we?

s1ippy · 31-07-2020 02:02AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

According to the risk assessment guidance.
There is an onus on the teachers to bring solutions to the health and safety hazards.

This being a once in a hundred year event with a biosafety level 4 pathogen,
I personally don't think that's fair. Especially considering that they won't even acknowledge it's airborne as pointed out by boggles.

I'm checking the guidance and I can't find anything that would suggest the ultimate responsibility lies with teachers...

If this is the case, it's far more serious than worries about litigation in the Leaving Cert marking. Teachers could get themselves in huge trouble by going along with the plan as it currently stands.

caveat emptor · 31-07-2020 03:08AM

Murple wrote: »

I caught the end of an interview with Prof Luke O' Neill who was asked about the plans for reopening schools. He seemed happy with them and said we were following 'best practice' measures of social distancing, hand washing, wearing masks (think he must have read a different document to the one I read). He also said many other countries had put these measures in place to reopen schools, naming Japan and Uraguay, and we would be following their measures.

.........

I want to get back to the school building and back to teaching my pupils. I miss them. I miss the work I do. I miss being with the children. But the current plans are madness. At the very least, they should have announced half attendance for September or to midterm. Review numbers and infection rates. Get flu vaccinations done for all children and school staff. If all was going well, increase to full attendance. If numbers were rising, keep it at half attendance. I keep hearing about 'well if other countries can do it, why can't we?'. So many other countries are doing half attendance - well if other countries can do it, why can't we?

Quite simply.......he's talking through his hole. I have zero confidence in his advice particularly on environmental hazards that schools present. I'm sure he's a lovely man though. He was very reassuring back in February. Not what we needed mind.

https://twitter.com/RTELateLateShow/status/1233536177438969856?s=20

Agree with with you are saying. In the early days we had an inability to look at other countries and see what they were doing.

We tried to reinvent the wheel and we failed.
This is not having a go. Rather it's an objective assessment of what happened
and hopefully how we will learn from it and not make the same mistake.

We didn't wear masks.
We didn't protect the vulnerable in care homes.
We didn't protect health care workers adequately. (32% got infected).

Lots of stuff was preventable if we just learned quicker and didn't wait for the peer reviewed paper.
Look at Japan or wherever....copy it. And resist the temptation to fudge.
A surgical mask is not a respirator.
A face shield are not goggles.
1 meter is not 2 meters!

Attention to detail is key and an uncompromising attitude is necessary to maintain safety.
This virus doesn't compromise.

caveat emptor · 31-07-2020 03:16AM

s1ippy wrote: »

I'm checking the guidance and I can't find anything that would suggest the ultimate responsibility lies with teachers...

If this is the case, it's far more serious than worries about litigation in the Leaving Cert marking. Teachers could get themselves in huge trouble by going along with the plan as it currently stands.

Just having a look. This is from primary.

Staff should note that they have a legal obligation under Section 13 of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 to comply with health and safety requirements and to

take reasonable care for the health and safety of themselves, their colleagues and other parties within the workplace.

Someone here specific posted that legally a health and safety risk assessment should include input from the "worker" as they understand the risks
more as they work everyday with them.

I think this doesn't apply in case of novel BS level4 pathogen.
They simply aren't qualified to understand the risks.
I'd argue most nurses and doctors here weren't.

Therefore they couldn't possibly complete an adequate risk assessment.

5.0 Guidance
5.1 Legal basis for Risk Assessment
Section 19, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 requires every employer (and those
who control workplaces to any extent) to identify the hazards at the place of work and to assess the
risk presented by those hazards.
It is also the responsibility of all staff to be aware of hazards and risks in the workplace and take
immediate action to report, reduce or resolve any hazards they observe in everyday practice.
5.2 Consultative Process
Section 26, of the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, 2005 places a duty on the employer to
consult and engage with his or her employees on all matters relating to safety health and welfare
(including risk assessments).

It is widely acknowledged that risk assessments are best conducted by those who have a good
knowledge and understanding of the organisation, work practices and processes (HSG65, 2013;
OHSAS 18001).
A team approach to risk assessment should be adopted, with the involvement of employees who
have practical experience of the particular process or activity being considered in the risk
assessment. These employees will often have the best knowledge and understanding of the
hazards. (HSE, 2003).

kowloonkev · 31-07-2020 04:54AM

Schools won't survive a month without having to close again. I think they're just reopening to make it look to the general public like they tried.

Something should be planned to get Junior and Senior Infants into schools for the social development but all other classes should be online for the coming academic year. Online is the only logical way forward.

Away With The Fairies · 31-07-2020 06:10AM

Wasn't there talk that children couldn't transmit this as well as adults?

Turns out children can transmit the virus
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/study-suggests-young-children-are-carrying-higher-levels-of-coronavirus/amp

It would make opening schools and keeping them open harder.

drunkmonkey · 31-07-2020 06:37AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Wasn't there talk that children couldn't transmit this as well as adults?

Turns out children can transmit the virus
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/study-suggests-young-children-are-carrying-higher-levels-of-coronavirus/amp

It would make opening schools and keeping them open harder.

That science will be ignored unless it comes from WHO or CDC. We're talking about a country that sees chicken wings as a way of preventing covid.

I can't see American schools open long, seems a lot more proactive measure than ours in NY

The Department of Education released new protocols Thursday for handling any possible confirmed coronavirus cases in schools this upcoming year.

The DOE plan states that if one or more students from the same class test positive their classrooms will close and anyone who had close contact with those students should self-quarantine for 14 days.

If two or more children in the same school test positive for the virus but do not share a classroom, the entire building will close for two weeks.

If at least two cases arise in the same building but the infections occurred outside of school, the DOE will also shutter the whole building while investigating the source of the exposures.

Once the probes into those cases are completed, the school will reopen while the impacted classrooms will remain closed for two weeks. Additional students and staff will be quarantined based on where the exposure took place.

If tracing efforts can’t determine infection origins, schools will be automatically shuttered for 14 days.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 31-07-2020 06:41AM

kowloonkev wrote: »

Schools won't survive a month without having to close again. I think they're just reopening to make it look to the general public like they tried.

Something should be planned to get Junior and Senior Infants into schools for the social development but all other classes should be online for the coming academic year. Online is the only logical way forward.

Online does not work for primary age children, it's not a way forward by any means. What do we do, keep schools shut until some magical imaginary date?

We have the lowest number of cases in Europe right now, there is not going to be another nationwide school closure unless things go very badly wrong.

The reason for the school closure and the criteria to reopen were met a couple of months back. Some schools might have to close for short periods in the future but it will be a measured and necessary approach rather than a blanket shut all school knee jerk reaction.

Alrigghtythen · 31-07-2020 07:13AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

Just having a look. This is from primary.

Someone here specific posted that legally a health and safety risk assessment should include input from the "worker" as they understand the risks
more as they work everyday with them.

I think this doesn't apply in case of novel BS level4 pathogen.
They simply aren't qualified to understand the risks.
I'd argue most nurses and doctors here weren't.

Therefore they couldn't possibly complete an adequate risk assessment.

Theres seems to be great difficulty grasping what to do with the risk assessment.

downthemiddle · 31-07-2020 07:26AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

We have the lowest number of cases in Europe right now.

Really???
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104837/coronavirus-cases-europe-by-country/
You wouldn’t be making “facts “ up again to suit your narrative ?

Alrigghtythen · 31-07-2020 07:32AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Really???
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104837/coronavirus-cases-europe-by-country/
You wouldn’t be making “facts “ up again to suit your narrative ?

That's states total cases since jan

khalessi · 31-07-2020 07:33AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Wasn't there talk that children couldn't transmit this as well as adults?

Turns out children can transmit the virus
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/study-suggests-young-children-are-carrying-higher-levels-of-coronavirus/amp

It would make opening schools and keeping them open harder.

Just another study along with the South Korean study for the government to ignore as people need to get back to work. All they needed to do was plan properly and see how other countries did it. Split classes for a few weeks masks visors sd hand sanitizer. but shure it will be grand.

downthemiddle · 31-07-2020 07:40AM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

That's states total cases since jan

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea
14 day cumulative total. Pesky facts.

pwurple · 31-07-2020 07:40AM

kowloonkev wrote: »

Schools won't survive a month without having to close again. I think they're just reopening to make it look to the general public like they tried.

Something should be planned to get Junior and Senior Infants into schools for the social development but all other classes should be online for the coming academic year. Online is the only logical way forward.

This is so painfully inequitable. First of all it's not even possible. We don't have functional broadband in vast swaths of the country. I live in a city and my broadband is a bunch of simcards I rotate all day to find better signal to work. People don't have laptops or even the space to facilitate it.

If you're Richy mcRich with a private tutor on hand to guide your kids through whatever uncoordinated homework appears on your fibre line you might be ok. Try online learning on the floor of a caravan with 6 other kids of different ages. Or being in direct provision.

Try being a widowed nurse working night shifts, now needed to stay up teaching small children.

Do we really want to do that to a whole generation?

The schools are already open. Jammed to the gills with summer arts camps, summer Lego camps, starcamp, summer provision classes. There has been no spike in cases in children.

Let's just get on with it.

Alrigghtythen · 31-07-2020 07:40AM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Burn them all.

The issue I'd see with off-campus overflow arrangements is firstly staffing, you'd be looking for a number of extra teachers that don't exist and it creates supervision issues. As one teacher leaves to be back in the main building on time for the next class and another teacher makes their way up to off-campus location, some group is going to be unattended somewhere.

Looking froward to getting back to school but expect it'll be nearly no SD so they'll be wearing masks.

I have a number of classes of 24+ and we won't have staff to take the 'extra' students or spare rooms for streaming (there wud be extra students coming out of multiple classes) so I expect it'll be the usual class groupings with masks and no SD

As one teacher leaves to be back in the main building

Theres an obvious way around that, I sure someone will be along to advise

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 31-07-2020 08:24AM

pwurple wrote: »

Do we really want to do that to a whole generation?

This is what's really saddening about this whole thing and the attitudes towards kids in this thread.

The children are treated like subhuman pawns and merely an afterthought.

"snot monsters", "harbingers of death" to mention a few recent descriptions and God forbid a hurt child might want to seek comfort from their teacher, they'll be told to step back (prior to virus might I add).

It's eye opening and saddening state of affairs from people who chose to be mentors to these kids in the first place.

But no let's just cover up their faces and keep them the hell away, sure what say should they have in it.

Teachers might need to learn a thing or two from the very children they teach.

am_zarathustra · 31-07-2020 08:26AM

Extra teachers, I'll eat my hat of we have the same number of teachers as last year.....there are no extra teachers in the country. There will be no one to take extra students. Supervision will be done by garda cleared randomers who will have a wonderful time telling a bunch of rowdy kids to stay in their seats with having had training or the experience of a teacher

am_zarathustra · 31-07-2020 08:30AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

This is what's really saddening about this whole thing and the attitudes towards kids in this thread.

The children are treated like subhuman pawns and merely an afterthought.

"snot monsters", "harbingers of death" to mention a few recent descriptions and God forbid a hurt child might want to seek comfort from their teacher, they'll be told to step back (prior to virus might I add).

It's eye opening and saddening state of affairs from people who chose to be mentors to these kids in the first place.

But no let's just cover up their faces and keep them the hell away, sure what say should they have in it.

Teachers might need to learn a thing or two from the very children they teach.

Ah here, I am stone mad about the kids I teach. I'm still in contact with a good few over email coz I know they wouldn't have the best situation at home. I'm running a summer school to try and get the vunerable ones back in early and help them reclimatise. I do an extra curriculars every day after school with them. I'm normally around the kids from 8.30.til after 5.

But I also have an Ill father in a nursing home, several of our teachers are carers and one has an immunocompromised kids. Asking for the same safety measures as a shop and something far less than a cinema is hardly me not caring about the kids. It's me not sacrificing the people I love for other people who's education, health and welfare I also care very deeply about

downthemiddle · 31-07-2020 08:32AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

This is what's really saddening about this whole thing and the attitudes towards kids in this thread.

The children are treated like subhuman pawns and merely an afterthought.

I would agree totally Fringey me auld flower. The irresponsibility of parents who are insisting that schools reopen in such an unsafe manner, just to get their own children out of their hair, is breathtaking.

khalessi · 31-07-2020 08:34AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

This is what's really saddening about this whole thing and the attitudes towards kids in this thread.

The children are treated like subhuman pawns and merely an afterthought.

"snot monsters", "harbingers of death" to mention a few recent descriptions and God forbid a hurt child might want to seek comfort from their teacher, they'll be told to step back (prior to virus might I add).

It's eye opening and saddening state of affairs from people who chose to be mentors to these kids in the first place.

But no let's just cover up their faces and keep them the hell away, sure what say should they have in it.

Teachers might need to learn a thing or two from the very children they teach.

Yes it is sad, that children are treated like that by the Department who feel it is ok to experiment with them

It is sad will that some people will use them like pawns to have a go at teachers but not unexpected.

It is sad that the proper plans were not put in place.

It is sad that while teachers are getting on with it as pwrple suggested and pointing out flaws teacher bashers come out of the woodwork to use it against them

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 31-07-2020 08:43AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

This is what's really saddening about this whole thing and the attitudes towards kids in this thread.

The children are treated like subhuman pawns and merely an afterthought.

"snot monsters", "harbingers of death" to mention a few recent descriptions and God forbid a hurt child might want to seek comfort from their teacher, they'll be told to step back (prior to virus might I add).

It's eye opening and saddening state of affairs from people who chose to be mentors to these kids in the first place.

But no let's just cover up their faces and keep them the hell away, sure what say should they have in it.

Teachers might need to learn a thing or two from the very children they teach.

Sorry to see this thread has turned you against teachers, you used to post so positively about their efforts. Sorry to see you get so cynical

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 31-07-2020 08:45AM

khalessi wrote: »

Yes it is sad, that children are treated like that by the Department who feel it is ok to experiment with them

It is sad will that some people will use them like pawns to have a go at teachers but not unexpected.

It is sad that the proper plans were not put in place.

It is sad that while teachers are getting on with it as pwrple suggested and pointing out flaws teacher bashers come out of the woodwork to use it against them

It is sad that while teachers look for ways to keep them safe they are slated for it

So the way children have been spoken about by some posters here is OK then? That's not the department so you can't blame them for the attitudes towards kids.

It's not right and clearly some need to get out of the teaching profession for good.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 31-07-2020 08:47AM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Sorry to see this thread has turned you against teachers, you used to post so positively about their efforts. Sorry to see you get so cynical

Lucky I know quite a few decent ones IRL, they'd cringe or laugh at the attitude of some on here to be honest.

I wouldn't base my opinion of a whole profession on a bunch of random online posters.

froog · 31-07-2020 08:48AM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Extra teachers, I'll eat my hat of we have the same number of teachers as last year.....there are no extra teachers in the country. There will be no one to take extra students. Supervision will be done by garda cleared randomers who will have a wonderful time telling a bunch of rowdy kids to stay in their seats with having had training or the experience of a teacher

Thats not true at all. There are tons of teachers in this country working in other disciplines cause they cant get teaching work, or working part time sub teacher hours where they can get them.

downthemiddle · 31-07-2020 08:51AM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Sorry to see this thread has turned you against teachers, you used to post so positively about their efforts. Sorry to see you get so cynical

From my observations (see what I did there), those most critical of teachers are people who would not be able to teach themselves. They wanted to be teachers, but didn’t achieve their ambitions. They now carry their chip around like a badge of honour, criticising teachers at every opportunity. They know, without fear of contradiction, that they could do a far superior job. Unable to move on from their failure that defines their life they look for every opportunity to undermine the role of teachers. You really would have to pity them.

Lillyfae · 31-07-2020 08:55AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Lucky I know quite a few decent ones IRL, they'd cringe at the attitude of some on here to be honest.

I wouldn't base my opinion of a whole profession on a bunch of random online posters.

To be honest I've been seeking information outside of this thread in the last 24 hours and I've mostly come to the conclusion that this is a poorly representative echo chamber thankfully. There are a lot of opinions of teachers in the media since the plans/resources were announced and as far as I can see they're mostly positive, and raring to get back to their classrooms. They're worried about creating a secure space for them, and being able to ease the anxieties that many children have developed over the last few months.

The schools aren't reopening in the context of exploding numbers a few months ago, they're opening in the context of community transmission being low. Wear masks (don't know why this is even an argument here because 0 people are preventing it), demonstrate good hand hygiene and keep social distancing where possible. If everyone does this then there shouldn't be any big problems.

khalessi · 31-07-2020 08:56AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

Lucky I know quite a few decent ones IRL, they'd cringe at the attitude of some on here to be honest.

I wouldn't base my opinion of a whole profession on a bunch of random online posters.

Just as we dont see your posts or a few others as indicative of all parents.

It is shocking how you use children to have a go a go at teachers, how you will not teacher bash outright but for months have liked the posts of anyone who will have a go despite their vitriol.

We all see them for who they are and it is sad that the children who apparently are treated like subhuman pawns in your eyes by teachers who are calling out for extra or proper protection for those children, strange how that is misconstrued, then will have to go to home to houses filled with such negativity.

It must be hard trying to succeed in education in a house filled with the vitriol shown by some in this thread and the other 6 threads since March against teachers and education in general. The stress on the children when they go back will be awful though having lived with that.

Lillyfae · 31-07-2020 08:57AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

From my observations (see what I did there), those most critical of teachers are people who would not be able to teach themselves. They wanted to be teachers, but didn’t achieve their ambitions. They now carry their chip around like a badge of honour, criticising teachers at every opportunity. They know, without fear of contradiction, that they could do a far superior job. Unable to move on from their failure that defines their life they look for every opportunity to undermine the role of teachers. You really would have to pity them.

This gave me a good laugh.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 31-07-2020 08:59AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

From my observations (see what I did there), those most critical of teachers are people who would not be able to teach themselves. They wanted to be teachers, but didn’t achieve their ambitions. They now carry their chip around like a badge of honour, criticising teachers at every opportunity. They know, without fear of contradiction, that they could do a far superior job. Unable to move on from their failure that defines their life they look for every opportunity to undermine the role of teachers. You really would have to pity them.

You missed your calling, you should have been a psychologist :rolleyes:

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 31-07-2020 09:02AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

To be honest I've been seeking information outside of this thread in the last 24 hours and I've mostly come to the conclusion that this is a poorly representative echo chamber thankfully. There are a lot of opinions of teachers in the media since the plans/resources were announced and as far as I can see they're mostly positive, and raring to get back to their classrooms.

The schools aren't reopening in the context of exploding numbers a few months ago, they're opening in the context of community transmission being low. Wear masks (don't know why this is even an argument here because 0 people are preventing it), demonstrate good hand hygiene and keep social distancing where possible. If everyone does this then there shouldn't be any big problems.

I think most here know this thread is a joke. I've said it here for weeks. I come here for entertainment at this stage.

There are threads elsewhere (not saying where cos the same posters will derail those too if they find them) that are quite informative. They discuss issues arising in a reasoned way and every point raised isn't seen as an excuse not to work, rather issues to be teased out.

I mentioned that masks would be required, at 2nd level, on the day the guidelines were issued and that led to a day of WUMs landing in making out like introducing masks amounted to an abuse of the students' rights when it was simply a way of reducing risk.

This thread is a joke, don't take it seriously.

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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