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Cannabis Legalisation Ireland

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    #62
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    kjl wrote: »
    Ok, let me start by saying I know this has been posted a million times but I haven't seen it in a while.

    Why is cannabis still illegal in Ireland? Seriously it's 2020. I'm 40 years old, do I not have a ****ing right to do whatever I want with my own body?

    Meanwhile it's perfectly legal do drink a bottle of whiskey and kill myself with alcohol poisoning or smoke cigarettes and give myself lung cancer.

    We are now getting to a point where it's getting rediculous, Leo said it would be the next big question so why hasn't it been asked?

    Why do I have to resort to going to some drug dealer to get my fix? Why is this completely untaxed product not taxed and made complete safe?

    Like I am so sick of reefer madness, the US is starting to give in and legalising it and they are the ones who started this whole idiotic war on a plant.

    I can't see any reasonable argument as to why is should remain illegal. The whole gateway argument is moot, and the few who suffer from paranoid schizophrenia from smoking it still have access to it without proper information.

    Not to mention that now with the rise of cannabis vapes people are dying from black market vapes which cut the oil with vitamin e, pesticides and cyanide. This is literally killing people because it's not regulated.

    It's 2020, what the **** is taking so ****ing long to sort this out. Surely all the biddies from 30 years ago have died off. Not one person on this forum doesn't know at least one cannabis user? Why do those idiots in government start the conversation already?

    Seriously, I'm so sick of this backward law. Now is the time to change it, we are all bored out of our tits at home with this Corona virus, wouldn't it be nice to have a joint to forget about it?


    You're probably preaching to the converted, mate.


    I don't smoke the herb myself. Tried it a few times and it's not for me. But I'm all for its legalisation. And as you mentioned the whole gateway drug concept is inane. What the fcuk are alcohol and nicotine? Most people who developed hard drug addictions started out drinking alcohol. One could say that beer/vodka/cider are gateway drugs yet they are perfectly legal.


    Baffling.


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    #63
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    You're probably preaching to the converted, mate.


    I don't smoke the herb myself. Tried it a few times and it's not for me. But I'm all for its legalisation. And as you mentioned the whole gateway drug concept is inane. What the fcuk are alcohol and nicotine? Most people who developed hard drug addictions started out drinking alcohol. One could say that beer/vodka/cider are gateway drugs yet they are perfectly legal.


    Baffling.

    A big part of the gateway effect is familiarity with dealing with the streets.


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    #64
    mouldybiscuits
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭mouldybiscuits


    Do you really think the pharmaceutical companies and the doctors who make lots of money on prescribing medication would allow cannabis to be legalised? It's a natural and effective substitute for many pharma drugs. Money talks.


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    #65
    ilovemuffin
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭ilovemuffin


    The law is not always fair. Smoking cannabis should not be outlawed. It's a plant medicine and can heal many things, and open a person up to life in whole new ways.


    I don't advocate strong skunk or herb that has strong THC ratios though as it can cause psychosis. But hashish/pollen has lots of CBD in it that can counter the often energetic and panicky/psychotic aspects of high-THC strains.


    The Irish government should just decriminalize it, tax it, then move on.


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    #66
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    i_surge wrote: »
    A big part of the gateway effect is familiarity with dealing with the streets.

    Who your friends are... is a much better consideration.

    I've been smoking cannabis for over two decades, and while I've done a variety of pills/shrooms/tabs, I've avoided the harder drugs. Why? Because I saw how those people turned out. Education of the consequences of such drug usage is far more effective.. not by trying to scare people (like the ads on tobacco which are useless), but rather to inform.

    As for dealing with the streets, cannabis dealers are typically very low on the drug ladder, with them moonlighting with a variety of pills. It's relatively easy to avoid meeting anyone who sells the harder drugs.

    Personally, I'd say the gateway argument is one of ignorance. It's the people with no experience of drugs and drug users who are more likely to attempt "trying" something harder.


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    #67
    mouldybiscuits
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭mouldybiscuits


    i_surge wrote: »
    A big part of the gateway effect is familiarity with dealing with the streets.

    The gateway theory is ridiculous as a whole. Almost 100% of heroin users have drank tea before. That doesn't mean tea makes people take harder drugs. Correlation does not equal causation, but it does make for useful propaganda.


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    #68
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    mouldybiscuits wrote: »
    Do you really think the pharmaceutical companies and the doctors who make lots of money on prescribing medication would allow cannabis to be legalised? It's a natural and effective substitute for many pharma drugs. Money talks.

    As an experienced user, I think most medical claims should be taken with a big pinch of salt. Certainly not good for acute pain, but excellent for a mental health refresh and nausea (only if high quality of clean provenance). Really depends on the strain and that is why prohibition is so restrictive and misleading.


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    #69
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Someone who knows say it can be a gateway drug but the majority of cannabis users don't move to heaver drug use.
    https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-gateway-drug


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    #70
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    Why is the argument of 'personal choice's always raised with cannibis use yet few if any argue that for heroin use.

    To me it's all the same. Muck used by idiots with no self respect or sense or intelligence who think drugs are the way.


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    #71
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    mouldybiscuits wrote: »
    The gateway theory is ridiculous as a whole. Almost 100% of heroin users have drank tea before. That doesn't mean tea makes people take harder drugs. Correlation does not equal causation, but it does make for useful propaganda.

    I agree that cannabis is not a gateway drug of itself in any chemical way but that route is certainly how my peers got familiar with other substances. Being 100% honest about it.

    Break the connection between users, petty dealers and the gangs behind them.

    Let some hippies grow it with love and care like we do with farmers market veggies. You don't see the difference?


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    #72
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It used to be the choice for hippies but now it seems the clientele is mostly white caps and funny walks.


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    #73
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    Why is the argument of 'personal choice's always raised with cannibis use yet few if any argue that for heroin use.

    To me it's all the same. Muck used by idiots with no self respect or sense or intelligence who think drugs are the way.

    Because you are ignorant and lack the ability to distinguish between different things.


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    #74
    Carfacemandog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,042 ✭✭✭Carfacemandog


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    Why is the argument of 'personal choice's always raised with cannibis use yet few if any argue that for heroin use.

    To me it's all the same. Muck used by idiots with no self respect or sense or intelligence who think drugs are the way.
    And the exact same c n be said of alcohol. I'll have a smoke a few times a year and have a drink a few times a year but no more on either front so don't really have a dog I n that fight, but could never make sense arguments like the one I am quoting unless that person is also for criminalizing alcohol.


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    #75
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    The Vintners lobby are never going to allow another recreational drug on the market. The Dáil is full of publicans. Ireland will be one of the last countries in Europe to legalise.


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    #76
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Who your friends are... is a much better consideration.

    I've been smoking cannabis for over two decades, and while I've done a variety of pills/shrooms/tabs, I've avoided the harder drugs. Why? Because I saw how those people turned out. Education of the consequences of such drug usage is far more effective.. not by trying to scare people (like the ads on tobacco which are useless), but rather to inform.

    As for dealing with the streets, cannabis dealers are typically very low on the drug ladder, with them moonlighting with a variety of pills. It's relatively easy to avoid meeting anyone who sells the harder drugs.

    Personally, I'd say the gateway argument is one of ignorance. It's the people with no experience of drugs and drug users who are more likely to attempt "trying" something harder.

    Sure but either way your experience mirrors mine. The average normal person wouldn't have a clue where to buy pills. The average stoner does, even if they don't partake themselves.

    A successful legalisation campaign should be open and honest.

    I think more regular people get turned off by utopian thinkers or those who use obvious mental gymnastics to weakly deflect any possible negative against their cause.

    Some heroin users started with cannabis 100% fact, but yeah they were on tea, fags and cans before that.
    Be legit, not a soothsayer.


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    #77
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Wombatman wrote: »
    The Vintners lobby are never going to allow another recreational drug on the market. The Dáil is full of publicans. Ireland will be one of the last countries in Europe to legalise.

    Much the same as the Catholic Church would never allow abortion. Too defeatist.


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    #78
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    No good reason? Have a word with yourself, he was growing drugs. What age is the cutoff you get a free pass to do what you like then?

    Frail :D. You sound like a red top rag.


    Give your arse a chance, why don't you?
    Wouldn't it make more sense to give a scrote with 70 priors a custodial sentence for beating the tar out of someone and give Keogh the sentence that the scrote normally gets. i.e. a 50 euro fine and the promise that he'll be a good boy in future?


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    #79
    ilovemuffin
    Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭ilovemuffin


    Our brains have cannabinoid receptors for a reason:

    hxxps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    i_surge wrote: »
    Sure but either way your experience mirrors mine. The average normal person wouldn't have a clue where to buy pills. The average stoner does, even if they don't partake themselves.

    The average person can ask within their friend circle, and likely someone will be aware of a seller. It's never been difficult.
    A successful legalisation campaign should be open and honest.

    I think more regular people get turned off by utopian thinkers or those who use obvious mental gymnastics to weakly deflect any possible negative against their cause.

    That works both ways. Still, I agree. Such a discussion should be open and honest. It won't be, though. Many people are against others enjoying themselves even if they're not interested in it themselves. It was the same with tobacco. It could have been easily regulated to allow smokers the ability to set up places only for them, but instead, we're being punished for being smokers. It'll be the same for stoners, and eventually, it'll happen for people drinking alcohol.
    Some heroin users started with cannabis 100% fact, but yeah they were on tea, fags and cans before that.
    Be legit, not a soothsayer.

    You might as well argue that sugar, or chocolate is a gateway product, since it alters body chemistry.


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    #81
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Dublinandy3 wrote: »
    I personally think we should go down the Portuguese route when it comes to all drugs and treatment/punishment rather than the american/canadian/dutch.

    A previous poster pointed out we're in 2020 now and yet the debate goes on, yes we are in 2020 so I don't think people can fly the flag anymore than cannabis is harmless and that's why it should get decriminilized or made legal. However both alcohol and tobacco are far more dangerous so in theory they should just be made illegal too, I wouldn't have an issue with that, however it won't ever happen.

    Changes need to happen to the way the Irish, and most societies address all drugs these days but the problem is it is unlikely because being tough on crime, including drug users and/or abusers is always a vote winner with a chunk of the electorate, regardless of the country.

    But just to reiterate, like the poster earlier who provided anecdotal evidence about it providing no harm to him or the peole he knows after many years of use I could provide the opposite, so could lots of actual scientific evidence but neither of those arguements should be used as a final yes or no. The whole issue of how society as a whole addresses drugs as a whole, inclduing tobacco and alcohol as they're drugs too, needs to be looked at, but probably won't.


    You damn well would have an issue with it if you and your kids were constantly at risk of getting caught up in crossfires between rival gangs of organised smugglers and bootleggers or if your kid wound up in the ER because he decided to mark his Junior Cert results by drinking some illegal poitin/moonshine instead of a couple of bottles of Bulmers.


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    #82
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The average person can ask within their friend circle, and likely someone will be aware of a seller. It's never been difficult.



    That works both ways. Still, I agree. Such a discussion should be open and honest. It won't be, though. Many people are against others enjoying themselves even if they're not interested in it themselves. It was the same with tobacco. It could have been easily regulated to allow smokers the ability to set up places only for them, but instead, we're being punished for being smokers. It'll be the same for stoners, and eventually, it'll happen for people drinking alcohol.



    You might as well argue that sugar, or chocolate is a gateway product, since it alters body chemistry.

    Yeah but unless they are friends with a happy old hippy (who if he has any sense will keep his growing private), they are going through a commercial network. Getting high quality in Ireland was virtually impossible up until 2 years ago and is still rare. Getting better but still crap.

    I am 1000% pro legalisation in case you didn't realise. Just being frank.


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    #83
    The Bishop Basher
    Registered Users Posts: 4,279 ✭✭✭The Bishop Basher


    I did them all over the years. Even tried heroin once but thankfully never pursued that any further.

    The 2 drugs that caused me the most problems were alcohol and cocaine in that order. I’ve sat in enough na and aa meetings to say with certainty that alcohol is the real gateway drug. Most of us started with alcohol.

    Legalising weed isn’t even a discussion imo. It will happen. It’s a matter of when not if. There‘s no sane reason for banning a flower and even less so when you understand the reason it was banned in the first place.

    So many people smoke or vape now that it’s pointless continuing to pursue them all.

    Other drugs should be decriminalised to various degrees and the emphasis placed on education and addiction services. It’s been done elsewhere and we know it works.

    We think we’re progressive in this country but we can’t really consider ourselves progressive as long as we’re locking people up and criminalising otherwise law abiding citizens for enjoying a relatively harmless herb. Especially while making large sums of money from one of the most toxic, damaging, addictive and depressing substances of them all. It’s rank hypocrisy.


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    #84
    iamstop
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,841 Mod ✭✭✭✭iamstop


    I'm not a smoker or anything but I live here in Canada where weed has been legal for about 2 years. I'm all for it. None of the against arguments hold up IMHO.
    Not saying Canada did everything right, they clearly didn't but like any major change in the laws they'll get refined over time and work themselves out.

    https://open.spotify.com/album/69JKwCcZGdLqX4Upj3DwP7



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    #85
    kjl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,127 ✭✭✭kjl


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Canada is an outlier in many areas and no country can be really used as a universal benchmark at the end of the day.

    But, consider this. Criminals make millions selling illegal cigarettes on the streets of Ireland, even though they're available in every newsagents on every street corner and they're "taxed" and "regulated". I see no reason why they wouldn't continue their illegal selling for dope either.

    Plus, in Amsterdam, the criminal element never disappeared and there's a thriving black market for drugs there.

    I just don't buy this idea that criminal gangs will just give up and disappear, if dope became legal. It isn't going happen. But it always seems to get touted as a given by the pro legalisation crowd.

    My needle isn't buried on this either way, but the pungent smell of what's around today suggests a far different thing than when I used to puff away when I was younger. making me somewhat reluctant to come down on the legalise it side of things.

    But I think in any conversation to do with this, it's better to talk straight, than to indulge in fantasy scenarios about how "wonderful" everything would be.

    Right so your argument is that because criminals could still possible sell cannabis we should hand over 100% of the market to them?

    I've been to the shops in the states and I can 100% say I would prefer to buy from one to those with loads of different strains, edibles and vapes than I would from some dealer who has one strain that's "fooking gorgeous"


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    #86
    kjl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,127 ✭✭✭kjl


    Rubberchikken wrote: »
    Why is the argument of 'personal choice's always raised with cannibis use yet few if any argue that for heroin use.

    To me it's all the same. Muck used by idiots with no self respect or sense or intelligence who think drugs are the way.

    Hey you coming for a pint on Friday night? See you there


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    #87
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Nah. Don't legalise it.


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    #88
    amadangomor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,148 ✭✭✭amadangomor


    An huge advantage of legalisation would be regulation.

    Don't get why it seems to be super strong skunky weeds available now? It is the equivalent of going to the pub and only having Absinth available.

    When I used to smoke a bit I never liked the strong weed. When living in the Netherlands I used to go for mild hashes. The equivalent of going for a regular strength beer to use the pub analogy again.

    If I was making the law I would legalise but have strong regulation and harsh penalties for strong THC types. In it's original form the THC was balanced with the other cannabinoids and was less harmful to mental health. These strong strains are bred to produce THC to the max and should remain banned.


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    #89
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,827 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    i_surge wrote: »
    Ask any cop and they will agree that cannabis use will temper the terrible culture we have around alcohol. Less violence for sure.

    Less violence is positive.

    More people getting into drive motor vehicles under the influence will increase

    More crashes, accidents, injury, loss of life on our roads will increase

    More people missing work

    More people developing psychological issues

    More people using cannabis as a gateway drug to more serious addictions and the fallout of that.


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    #90
    i_surge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Strumms wrote: »
    Less violence is positive.

    More people getting into drive motor vehicles under the influence will increase

    More crashes, accidents, injury, loss of life on our roads will increase

    More people missing work

    More people developing psychological issues

    More people using cannabis as a gateway drug to more serious addictions and the fallout of that.



    Quite an ignorant view imo, you talk as if people don't use the substance today in 2020.

    In Holland usage has gone down over the years, it is normalised, less rebel appeal for kids and so forth.

    Higher incidence of psych issues from contaminated street materials (plus the whole psychosis thing is overhyped) also you should listen to the the person above's point about regulation and potency and I would add choice and education to that.

    Why would people miss work?

    Gateway effect is more or less nonsense, especially if you take dealers and familiarity with illegal channels out of it. I would say propensity to take drugs is 80% personality, 20% peer influence.

    We already have drug driving laws and the same applies to alcohol.

    Enough of the reefer madness, you need to think in terms of something that already happens and ask can a change in how that activity is managed be positive for society.


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    #91
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,827 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    i_surge wrote: »
    Quite an ignorant view imo, you talk as if people don't use the substance today in 2020.

    In Holland usage has gone down over the years, it is normalised, less rebel appeal for kids and so forth.

    Higher incidence of psych issues from contaminated street materials (plus the whole psychosis thing is overhyped) also you should listen to the the person above's point about regulation and potency and I would add choice and education to that.

    Why would people miss work?

    Gateway effect is more or less nonsense, especially if you take dealers and familiarity with illegal channels out of it. I would say propensity to take drugs is 80% personality, 20% peer influence.

    We already have drug driving laws and the same applies to alcohol.

    Enough of the reefer madness, you need to think in terms of something that already happens and ask can a change in how that activity is managed be positive for society.

    The psyche of Dutch people of Irish people is different. That is not a comparable argument.

    We are not talking about ‘street materials’.. first go to argument for anybody without an argument... whataboutery....

    ‘You would say’ ? What qualifications have to pose statistics as fact ? Robert L. DuPont is the president of the Institute for Behavior and Health and the first director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. Google his findings. They fly in the face of yours.

    We have drug driving laws. But people who are inhibited by drugs , alcohol etc often make choices that make them act in contravention of said laws.

    Managed ? Yes don’t legalize.


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