Covid 19 Part XX-26,644 in ROI (1,772 deaths) 6,064 in NI (556 deaths) (08/08)Read OP

caveat emptor · 28-07-2020 08:51AM

Onesea wrote: »

So how many thound people have cardiac issues in Ireland from Covid, 75% of 25k people? Somehow I don't believe your study.

How many people have had a MRI of their heart after covid?

Very few I'd imagine.

Onesea · 28-07-2020 08:53AM

And spike in deaths from the tower block in Melbourne?
Hiw are all the workers from the multiple building sites coping?

Onesea · 28-07-2020 08:58AM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

They actually excluded people with issues before.
If anything this study should be biased against finding heart issues..

You can choose what you wish to believe by all means, thats how religions work. But facts are facts. Its grim reading. In the thread below they are begging cardiologists to prove it wrong.
God, i wish it was wrong. Even asymptomatic people included in study.

Though why we are surprised is anyones guess.
There were studies in feb warning of lung/heart/kidney damage in even mild asymptomatic cases.

Nasty bug.

https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1287994291902545920

I can't believe you buy into this.

SeaBreezes · 28-07-2020 09:04AM

Onesea wrote: »

I can't believe you buy into this.

What, factual studies as oppposed to belief?

Onesea · 28-07-2020 09:07AM

Man who jumps out of plane dies from corona virus.
Empty hospitals
An illness people do not know they have
Purposefully increased death rates
No mask needed, masks needed
Madness

Onesea · 28-07-2020 09:08AM

The financial disaster that is just about to kick off is going to kill millions. This is going to be nasty.

froog · 28-07-2020 09:15AM

Onesea wrote: »

Man who jumps out of plane dies from corona virus.
Empty hospitals
An illness people do not know they have
Purposefully increased death rates
No mask needed, masks needed
Madness

I'm curious, what do you think happened in italy during march? And whats going on in texas and Florida now?

Gruffalux · 28-07-2020 09:25AM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

They actually excluded people with issues before.
If anything this study should be biased against finding heart issues..

You can choose what you wish to believe by all means, thats how religions work. But facts are facts. Its grim reading. In the thread below they are begging cardiologists to prove it wrong.
God, i wish it was wrong. Even asymptomatic people included in study.

Though why we are surprised is anyones guess.
There were studies in feb warning of lung/heart/kidney damage in even mild asymptomatic cases.

Nasty bug.

https://twitter.com/CT_Bergstrom/status/1287994291902545920

I have not got the time now to look into this but assessment of this type of study/research should be top priority now. People in Ireland who have had Covid 19 need to be studied properly to see if there are longer term implications. The back and forth of could be, maybe, might, definitely not re sequelae is very annoying and unsettling. Just find out for goodness sake. It is a large public health issue. Surely this would be one of the most important things to do 6 months into this experience

circadian · 28-07-2020 09:33AM

There's also been reports of long term brain damage to people with no symptoms. This would create an underlying condition that would go undetected for a long time before becoming a problem as well as conditions that appear shortly after recovery from the virus.

https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/doi/10.1093/brain/awaa240/5868408

Loving all the new reg try hards pushing anti-science.

owlbethere · 28-07-2020 09:36AM

spookwoman wrote: »

Welcome to rip off Ireland, any chance to make a quick buck.

I'm fairly disappointed really. I'm usually getting away around the August Bank Holiday to see a bit of Europe. I thought it might be nice to get a night or two away this weekend and I decided to check on some areas and prices. I thought it might be nice to get a walking attraction in and see some views. Prices for this weekend is scandalous. Many places are booked out and I suppose its supply and demand.

ChelseaRentBoy · 28-07-2020 09:37AM

fr336 wrote: »

German study on survivors of Covid says 75% of them had changes to their heart consistent with a heart attack. What a grim virus this is.

Only the flu bro.

Open the pubs.

Curtain twitchers

Etc... Etc...

seamus · 28-07-2020 09:52AM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

They actually excluded people with issues before.
If anything this study should be biased against finding heart issues..

You can choose what you wish to believe by all means, thats how religions work. But facts are facts. Its grim reading. In the thread below they are begging cardiologists to prove it wrong.
God, i wish it was wrong. Even asymptomatic people included in study.

Though why we are surprised is anyones guess.
There were studies in feb warning of lung/heart/kidney damage in even mild asymptomatic cases.

Nasty bug.

The conclusion of this study is that "more research is needed". It is not evidence that covid causes heart problems.

Big points to remember here:

1. There is no control group - people who have not had covid and have been imaged to see what the base line is. Thus we have no idea what a "normal" level of inflammation is for this cohort. The group is "relatively" young. Even so heart disease is one of the top five killers of people over 35. This study had a median age of 49.

2. Similar to #1, there is no comparative "before". We cannot say that covid caused inflammation for these people, merely that it was present when tested. They may have had this issue already.

3. Myocardial inflammation is incredibly common when recovering from many viruses. In many respects it would be strange if this one didn't cause some inflammation in the aftermath.

4. There may still be a correlation/causation mixup. It may be the case that those with heart conditions (undetected or otherwise) are more susceptible to contracting covid rather than the other way around.

The conclusion of this study is that "These findings indicate the need for ongoing investigation of the long-term cardiovascular consequences of COVID-19." and nothing more.

It's important not to draw conclusions that reach beyond the study's.

Edit:
This tweet sums it up, really:
https://twitter.com/jallepap/status/1287995364482650112

Hector Savage · 28-07-2020 09:55AM

circadian wrote: »

There's also been reports of long term brain damage to people with no symptoms. This would create an underlying condition that would go undetected for a long time before becoming a problem as well as conditions that appear shortly after recovery from the virus.

https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/doi/10.1093/brain/awaa240/5868408

Loving all the new reg try hards pushing anti-science.

Loving all the fear mongering stories like this one, I have been seeing this story doing the rounds for weeks.

I was in college , I was 21 and a classmate got meningitis and nearly died !!
Only 20 and very healthy ...

scary scary stuff...

Onesea · 28-07-2020 09:55AM

At 1200 deaths from c19 and 150 days since lockdown that should give us an average of 8 deaths per day.

Then to twitter
Cara Byrne
Who did actually die of c19?
Clumoin all deaths together.. It's still only 1700 ppl your claiming.. If 3 quarters of them didn't die of it.. Well.. It wasn't a pandemic was it? Closing schools locking down the country.. No funerals or mass. F en crazy.

And to remind people. It's a criminal offense to falsify death certificates.

There will be plenty of busy solicitors..

circadian · 28-07-2020 09:58AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Loving all the fear mongering stories like this one, I have been seeing this story doing the rounds for weeks.

I was in college , I was 21 and a classmate got meningitis and nearly died !!
Only 20 and very healthy ...

scary scary stuff...

It's more a case of we genuinely do not know the long term effects. It's possible that these are outliers but it's certainly alarming enough that further research should be put into long term effects.

It's not absolute but a pattern has been observed. It'd be madness to simply ignore it.

caveat emptor · 28-07-2020 10:07AM

seamus wrote: »

The conclusion of this study is that "more research is needed". It is not evidence that covid causes heart problems.

It's important not to draw conclusions that reach beyond the study's.

Edit:
This tweet sums it up, really:
https://twitter.com/jallepap/status/1287995364482650112

I'd agree with causation versus correlation (that goes for any study really).

Would have been nice to include the following messages in the twitter exchange though.

https://twitter.com/jallepap/status/1287996717883957248?s=20

As regards controls. There were controls as this table outlines. Both "healthy" and "risk factor" matched.

All in all fairly comprehensive set of controls. Have a look at the p values?
The vast majority of the twitter thread is people claiming "Selection bias"

There isn't any. In general it will take time to answer the questions raised by the study. I'd apply precaution principle though.

Wouldn't like to end up with damaged heart function while saying "there was no evidence of causation versus correlation at the time."

Wibbs · 28-07-2020 10:10AM

seamus wrote: »

The conclusion of this study is that "more research is needed". It is not evidence that covid causes heart problems.

+1000 Finding heart inflammation in a group of middle aged people who've just come through any virus that has them taking to bed would hardly be a shock. I would bet the farm you'd see similar in a similar group after a bad bout of influenza. The thing is most of the time with most seasonal viruses nobody's looking that closely as it's "routine" and annual. Covid being new, has people concerned and with a lot of focus aimed at it so you're going to see things like this more often. Things that would have otherwise gone unnoticed.

There can also be an element of "fashion" in medicine and medical research too. Go back to the 1980's and ME/Yuppie Flu/Chronic fatigue syndrome was in the news and everybody and their dog had it(and with lots of very similar symptoms to this post covid syndrome), yet 30 years later there still isn't any great consensus nor any definitive test.

Never mind add in social media and people gathering together to compare and play top trumps with personal symptoms and it makes for a very muddy field to navigate.

timsey tiger · 28-07-2020 10:10AM

Any one have a handle on Monday's deaths over in the US, consistently the lowest day of the week. Last 1000+ was in April. Hopefully a blip or a reporting change, but in a union of states like the US I'm guessing that's not likely. Graph

iguana · 28-07-2020 10:10AM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Of 100 relatively young (median age 49) patients who recovered from COVID, nearly 80% showed myocardial inflammation or other cardiac symptoms.

Not to downplay the seriousness of this virus to some people. But this is a finding of mainly myocardial inflammation. Myocarditis is usually a post-viral condition. And very often temporary. Covid is showing to be a virus which very commonly triggers post-viral inflammation, especially to the chestwall. So this isn't an unexpected or necessarily 'scary' finding.

In my own experience with my Covid like virus which triggered a long illness, in the last few days of my initial illness I had a number of experiences of racing heart rate when I was doing nothing. It was noticeable enough that I charged up my smart watch and reset the heart rate tracker to every two minutes. And (while I know it's an imperfect tool) that showed irregular heart activity. The completely random racing heart feeling always correlated with a big spike, up to 170bpm. This continued to happen all through the first 6-8 weeks that I was experiencing post-viral issues. Completely random spikes for absolutely no reason and racing heart like I was working out intensively when I undertook mild activity.

It was actually something that became a useful tool I was able to use to help my recovery. If my heartrate was abnormal, I knew I needed to keep very rested. If it was fairly normal on activity, I would see if that held for a few days, then increase my gentle exercise. After a few months, as the inflammation decreased it went back to normal. And throughout July I've been steadily introducing and increasing really intensive exercise and my heart patterns are completely normal. I've also had a normal EKG, though I know that can miss milder cases of myocarditis like mine. I'd have asked for an ECG if symptoms had continued but it's absolutely fine now. So while inflammation around the heart shouldn't be dismissed and care needs to be taken not to cause permanent damage at a time when the heart is more vulnerable. In the vast majority of cases it will clear up fully after a few months.

caveat emptor · 28-07-2020 10:19AM

iguana wrote: »

Not to downplay the seriousness of this virus to some people. But this is a finding of mainly myocardial inflammation. Myocarditis is usually a post-viral condition. And very often temporary. Covid is showing to be a virus which very commonly triggers post-viral inflammation, especially to the chestwall. So this isn't an unexpected or necessarily 'scary' finding.
.........

I don't know typical recovery times for post viral myocardial inflammation. Would be good to compare. The parameters of this study are

The median (IQR) time interval between COVID-19 diagnosis and CMR was 71 (64-92) days. Of the 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19, 67 (67%) recovered at home, while 33 (33%) required hospitalization.

so 10 to 13 weeks after the test.

Hector Savage · 28-07-2020 10:28AM

If this long term heart issues is true, then it will be interesting to look at places like New York where they think up to 40% of the population had it, so over the next few years they should see a ****storm in cardiac issues ?

Hector Savage · 28-07-2020 10:31AM

seamus wrote: »

The conclusion of this study is that "more research is needed". It is not evidence that covid causes heart problems.

Big points to remember here:

1. There is no control group - people who have not had covid and have been imaged to see what the base line is. Thus we have no idea what a "normal" level of inflammation is for this cohort. The group is "relatively" young. Even so heart disease is one of the top five killers of people over 35. This study had a median age of 49.

2. Similar to #1, there is no comparative "before". We cannot say that covid caused inflammation for these people, merely that it was present when tested. They may have had this issue already.

3. Myocardial inflammation is incredibly common when recovering from many viruses. In many respects it would be strange if this one didn't cause some inflammation in the aftermath.

4. There may still be a correlation/causation mixup. It may be the case that those with heart conditions (undetected or otherwise) are more susceptible to contracting covid rather than the other way around.

The conclusion of this study is that "These findings indicate the need for ongoing investigation of the long-term cardiovascular consequences of COVID-19." and nothing more.

It's important not to draw conclusions that reach beyond the study's.

Edit:
This tweet sums it up, really:
https://twitter.com/jallepap/status/1287995364482650112

Not to dismiss this guy either, I mean it's his field and he is an expert .... but he is wearing a mask in his twitter photo - that should tell you where he leans on this.

I live in Spain and am happy to wear a mask on metro and when in shops, but displaying one in a SM photo ... it's a bit preachy to be honest.

circadian · 28-07-2020 10:38AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

If this long term heart issues is true, then it will be interesting to look at places like New York where they think up to 40% of the population had it, so over the next few years they should see a ****storm in cardiac issues ?

I think there is growing concern in many medical circles that we could be hit by waves of after effects later on. Again, it's purely speculation at this point but at least its based on current observations.

The thing is. If this is true,the current healthcare system in America is so expensive that there could possibly be a huge death toll as a result of secondary effects. While other countries may be well set up to handle the majority of this type of after effect, unless the US changes its healthcare system then they could be in for a bumpy ride.

What Username Guidelines · 28-07-2020 10:39AM

timsey tiger wrote: »

Any one have a handle on Monday's deaths over in the US, consistently the lowest day of the week. Last 1000+ was in April. Hopefully a blip or a reporting change, but in a union of states like the US I'm guessing that's not likely. Graph

Its been slowly curving back up over the last few weeks, perhaps as the virus moves north to south, but overall it is taking an upwards turn

zinfandel · 28-07-2020 10:54AM

timsey tiger wrote: »

Any one have a handle on Monday's deaths over in the US, consistently the lowest day of the week. Last 1000+ was in April. Hopefully a blip or a reporting change, but in a union of states like the US I'm guessing that's not likely. Graph

Alot of counties within states do not report deaths at the weekends, they catch up on tuesday/ wednesday

Onesea · 28-07-2020 10:58AM

froog wrote: »

I'm curious, what do you think happened in italy during march? And whats going on in texas and Florida now?

Same thing that happened with the flu outbreak a few years back. Lots of very old people died. Crap health service didn't help.

25k died from flu alone one winter not so long ago.

caveat emptor · 28-07-2020 11:00AM

There are a lot of uncertainties around this new virus. One thing which is a familiar is that governments and people ignore science they don't agree with for whatever reason. It's not the first time we've dealt with a new virus though.

owlbethere · 28-07-2020 11:10AM

The social welfare inspectors at airports is a bit of a slippery slope. Who are they to decide what is essential travel? We are so close and connected now to Europe, weekend trips to Europe can easily be done and someone could still be available for work. They could get on a flight on a Friday evening and be home again on Sunday night.

Why are they only targeting travellers at airports to implement that part of the governments guidelines. They will be better off standing in a post office queue on pension day to count all the oldies with a 'me fein' attitude, ignoring the hygiene and cough etiquette of what's required to keep this virus under control.

schmoo2k · 28-07-2020 11:26AM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Not to dismiss this guy either, I mean it's his field and he is an expert .... but he is wearing a mask in his twitter photo - that should tell you where he leans on this.

I live in Spain and am happy to wear a mask on metro and when in shops, but displaying one in a SM photo ... it's a bit preachy to be honest.

Ooohh the irony - made me smile - thx!

dalyboy · 28-07-2020 11:31AM

owlbethere wrote: »

The social welfare inspectors at airports is a bit of a slippery slope. Who are they to decide what is essential travel? We are so close and connected now to Europe, weekend trips to Europe can easily be done and someone could still be available for work. They could get on a flight on a Friday evening and be home again on Sunday night.

Why are they only targeting travellers at airports to implement that part of the governments guidelines. They will be better off standing in a post office queue on pension day to count all the oldies with a 'me fein' attitude, ignoring the hygiene and cough etiquette of what's required to keep this virus under control.

I’m confused too. “Available for work” is somehow impossible if one holidays abroad for a few days. Although if you are on the opposite side of Ireland on a holiday its deemed ok , Like a Twilight Zone episode

Covid 19 Part XX-26,644 in ROI (1,772 deaths) 6,064 in NI (556 deaths) (08/08)Read OP

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