How will schools be able to go back in September?

The HorsesMouth · 27-07-2020 11:45AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let them bring 3 masks a day. Can be swapped out at the same time every day in conjunction with hand sanitising.

I don't accept that my colleagues and I should be put in harm's way.

How can you ask 5 to 7 year olds to do this? Like they will be pulling at them, taking them off and on..rubbing noses underneath..it won't work. I'm a teacher..and will be teaching the younger cohort of pupils this year and I don't think it's reasonable to ask them them to wear masks. If I am asked to wear one I will..otherwise I won't as I believe you cannot teach small children properly with a mask on.

Boggles · 27-07-2020 11:47AM

CruelSummer wrote: »

T There is research out there that shows masks are ineffective after a certain amount of time.

No there isn't.

There is research for a surgical environment.

Teachers don't preform surgery on children.

CruelSummer wrote: »

Also..what about children who cannot keep on a costume mask, Halloween mask for more than 5 minutes? ?

I suppose Trick if they came to my house. Effort for the treats I'm afraid.

wirelessdude01 · 27-07-2020 11:48AM

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

How can you ask 5 to 7 year olds to do this? Like they will be pulling at them, taking them off and on..rubbing noses underneath..it won't work. I'm a teacher..and will be teaching the younger cohort of pupils this year and I don't think it's reasonable to ask them them to wear masks. If I am asked to wear one I will..otherwise I won't as I believe you cannot teach small children properly with a mask on.

I talking about the kids that are accepted to be as likely as us to spread it.

Personally I think all teachers should set a good example and wear a mask. Should be compulsory for us while indoors at school.

abacus120 · 27-07-2020 11:48AM

khalessi wrote: »

My kids wear them no bother when we are shopping and both are under 13.

Oh yeah no problem there but for 7 hours a day?

Deeec · 27-07-2020 11:52AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Let them bring 3 masks a day. Can be swapped out at the same time every day in conjunction with hand sanitising.

I don't accept that my colleagues and I should be put in harm's way.

I agree masks should be worn. After a few days though I can see alot of parents forgetting to give their kids the 3 daily masks. Also the masks need to be handled correctly to avoid contamination - thats hard for young kids to do. I can see it being very difficult for teachers dealing with hand sanitising and mask changes.

khalessi · 27-07-2020 11:53AM

abacus120 wrote: »

Oh yeah no problem there but for 7 hours a day?

Well sadly for them we were in B&Q for four hours the other day and they kept them on and didnt touch them. I will qualify it and say that they are used to hand hygiene and masks as we have a relative with CF so they have grown up with precautions since they were born. All it is, is practice getting used to them and what I did was have them wear them at time for short periods which gradually got longer as a game when they were younger, so when they needed to wear them it was not a big deal. They are at an age now where the fashion of the mask is part of the fun wearing them, so we look on the web for good masks with valves and cooool colours as they say.

Young children wear them in China and there is no reason children cannot get used to wearing them unless there is a particular reason.

wirelessdude01 · 27-07-2020 11:56AM

khalessi wrote: »

Young children wear them in China and there is no reason children cannot get used to wearing them unless there is a particular reason.

Ahh but they are different because they are communists ðŸ™„ðŸ˜‚

Loafing Oaf · 27-07-2020 11:59AM

The HorsesMouth wrote: »

If I am asked to wear one I will..otherwise I won't as I believe you cannot teach small children properly with a mask on.

I was wondering about this. I sometimes struggle to make myself heard by a shop assistant a couple of yards away, so is not difficult for a teacher wearing a cloth mask to project their voice to the back of a classroom?

Boggles · 27-07-2020 12:08PM

Deeec wrote: »

I agree masks should be worn. After a few days though I can see alot of parents forgetting to give their kids the 3 daily masks.

I imagine the department will be providing masks?

Or am I being completely naive?

Is that why they are making them optional.

jazz_jazz · 27-07-2020 12:10PM

I think visors would be a lot more appropriate for teachers to wear than masks. They won't hide facial expressions and won't muffle the voice.

helpful · 27-07-2020 12:12PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I was wondering about this. I sometimes struggle to make myself heard by a shop assistant a couple of yards away, so is not difficult for a teacher wearing a cloth mask to project their voice to the back of a classroom?

Of course it will add difficulty. It will also cause issue in terms of non verbal communication and facial expression. Infant teachers in particular have to be quite animated and this will be tough with a mask covering half you face. Might also be scary for a 5 year old to with a stranger all day who is wearing a mask as I would presume many of them won’t be used to seeing them.
All of these points will be brushed off as lazy teachers not wanting to work though.
A caller on Cork radio this morning giving out saying teachers are praying for a second lockdown. Bizarre comments really

seamus · 27-07-2020 12:12PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

The hysterical posts on this thread re masks are ridiculous. No child should be forced to wear one on their faces all day long. There is research out there that shows masks are ineffective after a certain amount of time.

Also..what about children who cannot keep on a costume mask, Halloween mask for more than 5 minutes? They handle, fiddle with them constantly, they find them suffocating at times and that alone would spread Covid easily...are any of the posters on this thread actually teachers or even parents?

This has been going on with this thread from the start. People making a big deal about having hot water in schools was the first one. "How can I go back into my classroom when we don't have hot water?!"

About a month ago, I suggested that building modifications would need to be made to make this work, only to have posters scoff and claim there's no way the money would be forthcoming. Oh, look...

Now it's masks. Suddenly a dire need for masks in schools, all the time, everywhere, even when the data says it's not that effective in this scenario.

Somehow every problem is insurmountable, every solution is insufficient.

One would be forgiven for thinking that there's a cohort who just don't want to go back to work. Or who won't accept anything less than hospital-level infection controls in schools.

Sammy2012 · 27-07-2020 12:12PM

jazz_jazz wrote: »

I think visors would be a lot more appropriate for teachers to wear than masks. They won't hide facial expressions and won't muffle the voice.

They are saying visors without masks are not preventing the spread so it sounds like wearing a visor is pointless on it's own.

blanch152 · 27-07-2020 12:14PM

Boggles wrote: »

What exactly have they looked into?

The schools have been closed, there is no evidence to look at.

There was no scaled up robust testing or tracing system in place on March 12th.

Quite simply the data doesn't exist.

I posted the link to the study in full already, maybe you should read it.

blanch152 wrote: »

Not clear from the HIQA document, it doesn't seem to distinguish between ages, but perhaps studies elsewhere, and since the 23rd June have found something.

https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2020-06/Evidence-summary-for-spread-of-COVID-19-by-children.pdf

"An analysis of Irish notifications of SARS-CoV-2 in the school setting found no
transmission from children.
(12) All notifications occurred in early March, before the universal school closure on 12 March 2020. Prior to this closure, when a case was identified within a school, either all children and staff within the school or all children and staff involved with an individual case were excluded, limiting the potential for further transmission. Three paediatric cases (all aged between 10 and 15 years) and three adult cases of COVID-19 with a history of school attendance were identified, along with 1,155 contacts (1,025 school contacts, 130 other settings). None of the original six cases were infected with SARS-CoV-2 via the school setting. All cases except one had symptoms of either cough or fever. Contacts were exposed at school in the classroom, during sports lessons, music lessons and during choir practice for a religious ceremony, which involved a number of schools mixing in a church environment, although the length of time of these activities is not reported. The three paediatric cases had a total of 822 child contacts and 83 adult contacts within the school setting. No additional cases were identified during the follow-up period (14 days) from last contact with the index case. However, only contacts who developed symptoms were referred for testing, thus asymptomatic secondary cases were not captured. Transmission was observed in one instance outside the school environment, between two adult cases and a further adult."

Here is some more interesting reading about studies:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

"It’s also unclear how easily kids can spread the virus, both to each other and to adults. One robust study of nearly 65,000 kids published by the South Korean Center for Disease Control last week showed that children in the 10- to 19-year-old age range could spread COVID-19 within households just as effectively as adults."

So the Korean study is showing the transmission of the virus within household situations, but not in classrooms?

For me, teachers should not have any real concerns about going back to the classroom. Compared to bus drivers, retail workers, care assistants, hair-dressers etc., who are all out there working for weeks, there is a much lesser risk. Parents of vulnerable children may have greater concerns that the teacher may spread it to them.

Boggles · 27-07-2020 12:15PM

seamus wrote: »

Now it's masks. Suddenly a dire need for masks in schools, all the time, everywhere, even when the data says it's not that effective in this scenario.

What data?

What specific study are you citing that claims mass mask usage in relation to Covid 19 in a class room environment is "not that effective"?

In your own good time.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 27-07-2020 12:16PM

seamus wrote: »

One would be forgiven for thinking that there's a cohort who just don't want to go back to work. Or who won't accept anything less than hospital-level infection controls in schools.

Took longer than usual for this one to be trotted out. Fair play

Loafing Oaf · 27-07-2020 12:17PM

Sammy2012 wrote: »

They are saying visors without masks are not preventing the spread .

Really? I see a lot of retail staff round my way wearing them. I assumed they offered a higher level of protection

Boggles · 27-07-2020 12:18PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I posted the link to the study in full already, maybe you should read it.

The "study" is based on 6 infections, where the school was automatically closed?

Are you being serious?

wirelessdude01 · 27-07-2020 12:20PM

seamus wrote: »

This has been going on with this thread from the start. People making a big deal about having hot water in schools was the first one. "How can I go back into my classroom when we don't have hot water?!"

About a month ago, I suggested that building modifications would need to be made to make this work, only to have posters scoff and claim there's no way the money would be forthcoming. Oh, look...

Now it's masks. Suddenly a dire need for masks in schools, all the time, everywhere, even when the data says it's not that effective in this scenario.

Somehow every problem is insurmountable, every solution is insufficient.

One would be forgiven for thinking that there's a cohort who just don't want to go back to work. Or who won't accept anything less than hospital-level infection controls in schools.

Do you really think that schools shouldn't have hot water?

On a practical level they say that just soap and water is enough. Now let your mind wander back to your school days. Middle of winter and has been down to below freezing over night. Imagine trying to line up 25+ young kids to wash their hands in freezing cold water. You'll have a few refusers because it's too cold. Like a virus, refusals to wash the hands with the cold water will spread. If the water is warm there is less chance of that occuring.

I'm guessing seeing as you have such an adversion to masks that you are one of those people who don't wear them when they enter a shop. Those people are so selfish in my eyes after all they we have done to far to try and squash and contain this virus.

seamus · 27-07-2020 12:20PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Took longer than usual for this one to be trotted out. Fair play

I'm waiting for the, "We want to go back to work, but we also want to be safe" line to be trotted out again as if it explains the refusal to accept workable solutions.

mirrorwall14 · 27-07-2020 12:20PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I posted the link to the study in full already, maybe you should read it.

Here is some more interesting reading about studies:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-infection-spread-in-children-cvd/

"It’s also unclear how easily kids can spread the virus, both to each other and to adults. One robust study of nearly 65,000 kids published by the South Korean Center for Disease Control last week showed that children in the 10- to 19-year-old age range could spread COVID-19 within households just as effectively as adults."

So the Korean study is showing the transmission of the virus within household situations, but not in classrooms?

For me, teachers should not have any real concerns about going back to the classroom. Compared to bus drivers, retail workers, care assistants, hair-dressers etc., who are all out there working for weeks, there is a much lesser risk. Parents of vulnerable children may have greater concerns that the teacher may spread it to them.

Bus drivers: masks compulsory, 50% max capacity. Perspex between bus driver and passengers. Except for intercity services most bus journeys not as long as the school day.

Retail workers: limits on customers per shop, masks compulsory now, footfall way way down for lockdown, no one spending long periods in shops with workers, socially distanced at the counters often with Perspex and masks in many cases too

Hairdressers: two people allowed in my kids barber at a time. All wearing masks especially in the chair. My own hairdressers I had to put my handbag and all in a bag and wasn’t even allowed wear my own mask. There was massive space between every customer.

Teachers: no masks necessary. No Perspex necessary. No social distancing unless you can manage it (hint: no classrooms can fit over 20 with 1m social distancing). 30 students at a time in a small room for 40 minutes stretches up to 9 times a day.....

See the difference?

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 27-07-2020 12:22PM

seamus wrote: »

I'm waiting for the, "We want to go back to work, but we also want to be safe" line to be trotted out again as if it explains the refusal to accept workable solutions.

Bloody teachers wanting to be safe. Sickens me

lulublue22 · 27-07-2020 12:23PM

seamus wrote: »

I'm waiting for the, "We want to go back to work, but we also want to be safe" line to be trotted out again as if it explains the refusal to accept workable solutions.

Where do you work yourself and what measures are being implemented to mitigate against the spread of covid ?

wirelessdude01 · 27-07-2020 12:23PM

seamus wrote: »

I'm waiting for the, "We want to go back to work, but we also want to be safe" line to be trotted out again as if it explains the refusal to accept workable solutions.

Why is it acceptable that your workable solutions have to be different that let's say, shops? Mask wearing is being legislated for.

combat14 · 27-07-2020 12:23PM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Bus drivers: masks compulsory, 50% max capacity

Retail workers: limits on customers per shop, masks compulsory now, footfall way way down for lockdown, no one spending long periods in shops with workers, socially distanced at the counters often with Perspex and masks in many cases too

Hairdressers: two people allowed in my kids barber at a time. All wearing masks especially in the chair. My own hairdressers I had to put my handbag and all in a bag and wasn’t even allowed wear my own mask. There was massive space between every customer.

Teachers: no masks necessary. No Perspex necessary. No social distancing unless you can manage it (hint: no classrooms can fit over 20 with 1m social distancing). 30 students at a time in a small room for 40 minutes stretches.

See the difference?

was in kildare village yesterday.. not let into the van shop.. when asked told there was a 3 hour virtual queue ..

there was absolutely no one in the shop !!!!

serious double standards for health and safety by the sounds of it in schools .......

27-07-2020 12:29PM

seamus wrote: »

I'm waiting for the, "We want to go back to work, but we also want to be safe" line to be trotted out again as if it explains the refusal to accept workable solutions.

The government only have themselves to blame for all of this.
They insisted on keeping pubs closed. They insist on 2M distance. Their advice is not to travel. They want face coverings mandatory in shops.

They won't even meet themselves in the Dail.

Their approach is now coming back to bite them. People don't think anything is safe anymore.

hmmm · 27-07-2020 12:31PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Really? I see a lot of retail staff round my way wearing them. I assumed they offered a higher level of protection

I think some (very genuine) people believed this and advised visor wearing, but there has been some new evidence in recent weeks that suggests visors alone are not as good as masks. Certainly eye protection and a mask are better than mask alone. The science is evolving, we don't know a lot about this virus yet, it'll be a while yet before we can be definitive.

blanch152 · 27-07-2020 12:33PM

Boggles wrote: »

The "study" is based on 6 infections, where the school was automatically closed?

Are you being serious?

Boggles wrote: »

The science has moved on since then.

If they could do it again I imagine they would have tested a hell of a lot more.

All children can get it and spread it, whatever the age.

The studies may have been limited, but they have been done, and the risk is low for teachers.

You have previously mentioned that the science has moved on, but you have yet to produce a study to back you up.

Schools have been back around the world for weeks and even months, yet we have no reports of thousands of teachers dying from Covid-19. Why is that? Answer: because the risk is very small.

Teachers are scared, I get it, but it is surprising that such a well-educated cohort are refusing to accept the science that there is little risk in a return to school.

seamus · 27-07-2020 12:34PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Why is it acceptable that your workable solutions have to be different that let's say, shops? Mask wearing is being legislated for.

Mask wearing is appropriate in applicable scenarios. Namely periods of 15 minutes to two hours where social distancing cannot be maintained.

Outside of these scenarios it is not necessarily recommended. There is little harm in someone wearing a mask AND social distancing, but there is no legislation mandating this.

Masks are not a panacea. Not requiring masks in schools is not contrary to WHO or HSE advice.

Whether an individual feels that's right or wrong is irrelevant. There are those who would make masks mandatory in public at all times.

boogerballs · 27-07-2020 12:34PM

With the schools opening at the end of Aug, what are parents options as far as keeping the kids off school if they wished

I wouldn't mind keeping them at home for the first 2 - 3 weeks to see how it all goes first but i know if they miss 20 days of school in a year it gets flagged.

Is there any legal requirement to send them back when the schools re-open?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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