Masks

robinph · 24-07-2020 09:47AM

No: I don't care enough

GazzaL wrote: »

Again, disgraceful dismissing of WHO guidelines. If you're hands become contaminated and you fidget with your mask and touch your face, you risk infecting yourself. Elderly people are a very high risk group, they are always going to be part of the conversation.

There is minimal risk from surfaces, but anyway. How does wearing a mask and touching my face with contaminated hands become a higher risk than touching my unmasked face with contaminated hands?

Nobody is claiming that elderly people are not a high risk group.

What makes elderly people and masks a special case though? Why is an elderly person wearing a mask incorrectly a bigger problem than a young person wearing a mask incorrectly?

...and even if you manage to answer that, that they are wearing a mask or not makes close to zero difference in the risk to them. You reduce their risks of being infected by you wearing a mask...not by them wearing a mask.

robinph · 24-07-2020 09:50AM

No: I don't care enough

golfball37 wrote: »

The protecting others argument doesn’t stack up for me. Do we really believe there are tons of asymptomatic virus carriers out there? Three months ago they weren’t mandatory.

This virus is so deadly it’s killing 2% of those who catch it. It’s so smart it can distinguish between someone who has had a pint and spent 9 euro on food as opposed to someone who hasn’t.

Forgive me if I think we’re making this up as we go along. Mandatory mask wearing is just the latest unproven fad Mick is happy to buy into.

Asymptomatic, or just not yet showing symptoms. Doesn't really make much difference, in either case you don't know that you are potentially infecting other people. Wearing a mask protects other people from you at the point at which you don't yet know you have it.

Boggles · 24-07-2020 10:01AM

golfball37 wrote: »

Forgive me if I think we’re making this up as we go along. Mandatory mask wearing is just the latest unproven fad Mick is happy to buy into.

180 odd countries have either recommended or mandated for masks.

As "fads" go it is gone global.

Away With The Fairies · 24-07-2020 10:10AM

Yes: valved

golfball37 wrote: »

The protecting others argument doesn’t stack up for me. Do we really believe there are tons of asymptomatic virus carriers out there? Three months ago they weren’t mandatory.

This virus is so deadly it’s killing 2% of those who catch it. It’s so smart it can distinguish between someone who has had a pint and spent 9 euro on food as opposed to someone who hasn’t.

Forgive me if I think we’re making this up as we go along. Mandatory mask wearing is just the latest unproven fad Mick is happy to buy into.

If the virus doesn't kill you, you can end up with deadly clots and amputated limbs. If it's not that you might end up with what they call a long tail of this. Nobody knows what will happen to people when they get this. And nobody should be allowed to go around without a mask and giving someone this virus.

odyssey06 · 24-07-2020 10:33AM

golfball37 wrote: »

This virus is so deadly it’s killing 2% of those who catch it. It’s so smart it can distinguish between someone who has had a pint and spent 9 euro on food as opposed to someone who hasn’t.

2% is a pretty significant figure when you multiply it by the number of cases.
It's much more of a threat in terms of lives lost than a virus that kills 20% or 50% of those who catch it but does not spread easily i.e. is not spread by asymptomatic infectees or infectees with 'walking around' symptoms.

The number of cases have gone up when pubs \ drinking focused establishments have been re-opened.
But hasn't when food establishments have re-opened.
This is shown from other countries which loosened restrictions.
In some cases pubs were opened only to be shut again.

The virus can't magically distinguish between whether the meal was €9 but somehow it is spreading more among drinkers than eaters.
Probably because drinkers wander about more, mingle and chat at closer quarters and alcohol reduces inhibitions e.g. on social distancing and hygiene.
People out for a meal go to a table, sit at table and eat.
The €9 is about ensuring that those establishments that do open are intented for eaters not drinkers.

Stark · 24-07-2020 11:12AM

No: other

Not sure why people think they're so clever every time they say "virus doesn't know if you're having a 9 euro meal or not hahahaha".

Restaurants were given the go-ahead to open in phase 3, pubs weren't. They made the reasonable decision that some pubs have the ability to operate as restaurants so should be allowed open if they operate in restaurant mode only. The 9 euro meal thing is part of the restaurant licensing laws, it's not something NPHET made up.

If you claim there's no difference between how people behave in restaurants and cafes vs how they behave in pubs, then you're just being obtuse.

Jim_Hodge · 24-07-2020 11:36AM

Yes: homemade

GazzaL wrote: »

Because I am concerned for other people's welfare. I don't subscribe to the view that if I wear a mask properly, I'm grand, **** everyone else.

You still haven't grasped that the mask is not to protect you. It's to protect others from you. And, believe it or not, most people wear a mask for that purpose. If you wear a mask the 'old people' you're so concerned about won't have issues if they touch their masks. And why you think older people will always wear masks incorrectly or touch them more than everybody else is puzzling and more than a bit condescending.

_Kaiser_ · 24-07-2020 12:15PM

Up in our office in Dublin today and didn't notice many wearing them coming out of places on the way down the quays.

Went across the road for a coffee then with a colleague and we were the only 2 in the place with masks. Pointless and I won't be bothering unless unavoidable, although I was kinda surprised as I would have thought Dublin would be taking it more seriously given its the county with the highest numbers.

odyssey06 · 24-07-2020 12:17PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Up in our office in Dublin today and didn't notice many wearing them coming out of places on the way down the quays.

Went across the road for a coffee then with a colleague and we were the only 2 in the place with masks. Pointless and I won't be bothering unless unavoidable, although I was kinda surprised as I would have thought Dublin would be taking it more seriously given its the county with the highest numbers.

I agree with you re: people should be taking it more seriously in our most densely populated area.
But I disagree about it being pointless. Every extra person masked up is one more person whose likelihood of transmitting the virus has been reduced.

_Kaiser_ · 24-07-2020 12:18PM

Jim_Hodge wrote: »

You still haven't grasped that the mask is not to protect you. It's to protect others from you.

Grand so. I'm not sick, haven't been sick, and live in a County with minimal numbers and 1% of cases.

I'm in an office here today with about 5 other people, 3 of which are on the next floor. Drove in, will be driving out. Minimal risk to or from me.

Leave me alone so

_Kaiser_ · 24-07-2020 12:21PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

I agree with you re: people should be taking it more seriously in our most densely populated area.
But I disagree about it being pointless. Every extra person masked up is one more person whose likelihood of transmitting the virus has been reduced.

That's fine - if they have it. As the numbers continue to show, the overwhelming majority of people don't.

Life is risky. The way the responses to Covid have been (especially at this stage), we shouldn't really drive or cycle either because there's a chance we might get hurt or die.

Our current level of response is not proportional to the very low level of risk - especially in counties with minimal cases.

odyssey06 · 24-07-2020 12:21PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Grand so. I'm not sick, haven't been sick, and live in a County with minimal numbers and 1% of cases.
I'm in an office here today with about 5 other people, 3 of which are on the next floor. Drove in, will be driving out. Minimal risk to or from me.
Leave me alone so

You are probably low risk but still, unless you've been tested, you don't know if you are sick or not for sure.
This thing can creep up on us due to asymptomatic transmission, so there is always a delay between a cluster emerging and us knowing about it.
Masks are about preventing that cluster.
Less than 1% of car journeys end up an accident needing a seat belt but still makes sense to belt up.

_Kaiser_ · 24-07-2020 12:26PM

Actually as I sit here I'm more likely to get sick from the crappy aircon (which is either too warm or freezing depending on where you are in the building) than I am of getting CV-19

robinph · 24-07-2020 12:29PM

No: I don't care enough

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Grand so. I'm not sick, haven't been sick, and live in a County with minimal numbers and 1% of cases.

I'm in an office here today with about 5 other people, 3 of which are on the next floor. Drove in, will be driving out. Minimal risk to or from me.

Leave me alone so

Not sure there is any issue there with needing to be wearing a mask, other than for extreme caution for the one other person that you are sharing office space with.

But you know who that other person is and they know who you are, so in the event that one of you becomes ill it will be fairly easy to get ahead of the virus through contact tracing between the two of you and get both of you and your families that you've been in contact with to isolate.

If you go hanging around in other indoor places though how do you propose contact tracking those people? There is the app but that doesn't have 100% usage, so easiest solution id for you to reduce how much you are breathing on them with your can't quite be certain that it's not infectious breath.

Boggles · 24-07-2020 12:30PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Grand so. I'm not sick, haven't been sick, and live in a County with minimal numbers and 1% of cases.

I'm in an office here today with about 5 other people, 3 of which are on the next floor. Drove in, will be driving out. Minimal risk to or from me.

Leave me alone so

Wear one to help others.

I know mental concept, right?

odyssey06 · 24-07-2020 01:10PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Actually as I sit here I'm more likely to get sick from the crappy aircon (which is either too warm or freezing depending on where you are in the building) than I am of getting CV-19

Crappy aircon is never good, especially come winter if there's a respiratory virus circulating... one of the reasons we might see more of a push on masks in offices - especially if the numbers in the office go up.

Assetbacked · 24-07-2020 01:41PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Actually as I sit here I'm more likely to get sick from the crappy aircon (which is either too warm or freezing depending on where you are in the building) than I am of getting CV-19

The guidance which came before the mask drive was that being within 2 metres of someone for more than 15 minutes shouldn't happen as it will increase the likelihood of contracting the virus. If you have a mask then this wouldn't really apply. Whenever I've been in a shop the past few months I've consciously noticed that I'm not within 2 metres of anyone for more than 15 minutes and, like you, in our office we're all seated more than 2m apart so I haven't needed to consider a mask yet!

odyssey06 · 24-07-2020 01:47PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

The guidance which came before the mask drive was that being within 2 metres of someone for more than 15 minutes shouldn't happen as it will increase the likelihood of contracting the virus. If you have a mask then this wouldn't really apply. Whenever I've been in a shop the past few months I've consciously noticed that I'm not within 2 metres of anyone for more than 15 minutes and, like you, in our office we're all seated more than 2m apart so I haven't needed to consider a mask yet!

That was the advice. I think they are also now concerned about reports like this around aerosol transmission.
You don't have to be 15 minutes beside someone. You just need to be 15 minutes breathing in what they breathed out (and the ventilation didn't disperse).

In an open letter to the Geneva-based agency, published on Monday in the Clinical Infectious Diseases journal, 239 scientists in 32 countries outlined evidence that they say shows floating virus particles can infect people who breathe them in.

When an infected person exhales, they expel droplets. Droplets under five micrometres in size can become suspended in the air for several hours and travel up to tens of metres, they said.
Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sarah McInerney, Professor John Wenger said there needs to be greater recognition of the route of aerosols from exhaled breaths in the transmission of Covid-19.
The Professor of Chemistry at UCC said a large body of evidence shows that exhaled breath releases smaller particles that can travel further and remain in an indoor environment for a few hours.
He said that this could be an important transmission route under certain conditions, such as in crowded or poorly ventilated areas and while it may not be the dominant pathway for the virus, it is a viable one.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0708/1152044-coronavirus-who/

Assetbacked · 24-07-2020 01:52PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

odyssey06 wrote: »

That was the advice. I think they are also now concerned about reports like this around aerosol transmission.
You don't have to be 15 minutes beside someone. You just need to be 15 minutes breathing in what they breathed out (and the ventilation didn't disperse).

In an open letter to the Geneva-based agency, published on Monday in the Clinical Infectious Diseases journal, 239 scientists in 32 countries outlined evidence that they say shows floating virus particles can infect people who breathe them in.

When an infected person exhales, they expel droplets. Droplets under five micrometres in size can become suspended in the air for several hours and travel up to tens of metres, they said.

Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sarah McInerney, Professor John Wenger said there needs to be greater recognition of the route of aerosols from exhaled breaths in the transmission of Covid-19.

The Professor of Chemistry at UCC said a large body of evidence shows that exhaled breath releases smaller particles that can travel further and remain in an indoor environment for a few hours.

He said that this could be an important transmission route under certain conditions, such as in crowded or poorly ventilated areas and while it may not be the dominant pathway for the virus, it is a viable one.

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0708/1152044-coronavirus-who/

This is what I'm confused about in the current context of pushing for more mask wearing. Does it mean the previous guidance is now irrelevant? My understanding, trying to decipher the government's ridiculously' inconsistent advice is that the mask wearing is in lieu of the 15 minute/2 metre advice. There was also mention of masks being effective where there is community spread but we are very much on top of the situation it seems with mass testing and effective contact tracing.

Sorry, just one more thing. The implications of that aerosol study are quite significant; let's say, for argument's sake, it's true then I would think far more people were infected with covid than the stats show. Which leads me to wonder, for example, if I was infected 3 months ago and showed no symptoms, could we test to determine whether I had the virus a few months ago? Does such a test exist?

robinph · 24-07-2020 02:05PM

No: I don't care enough

Assetbacked wrote: »

... if I was infected 3 months ago and showed no symptoms, could we test to determine whether I had the virus a few months ago? Does such a test exist?

There are tests for antibodies that are being done. Nobody is quite sure yet though if that is reliable in showing someone was infected, how long ago they might have been infected, how infectious they might have been at that time to other people or if they are still potentially at risk of being re-infected.

odyssey06 · 24-07-2020 02:06PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

This is what I'm confused about in the current context of pushing for more mask wearing. Does it mean the previous guidance is now irrelevant? My understanding, trying to decipher the government's ridiculously' inconsistent advice is that the mask wearing is in lieu of the 15 minute/2 metre advice. There was also mention of masks being effective where there is community spread but we are very much on top of the situation it seems with mass testing and effective contact tracing.

Sorry, just one more thing. The implications of that aerosol study are quite significant; let's say, for argument's sake, it's true then I would think far more people were infected with covid than the stats show. Which leads me to wonder, for example, if I was infected 3 months ago and showed no symptoms, could we test to determine whether I had the virus a few months ago? Does such a test exist?

Sometimes the advice is inconsistent, sometimes they fall for Chinese obfuscation but sometimes it is genuinely playing catch up with the emerging data. Maybe they should do a better job of explaining that.

Mask wearing is part of a reduction in social distancing to 1 metre - that's how the public transport capacity was increased to 2 metres.
In general if you can follow the 15 minute / 2 metre advice it is still good practice. But it's not always possible especially as capacity increases and more establishments open and people return to work.

It could be that large well ventilated supermarkets are low risk for aerosol transmission.
Smaller stuffy places like old bookstores, corner shops, charity shops could be higher risk.
And having the same set of people in an open plan office for 8 hours could be a different risk factor again.

There are antibody tests and you might test positive but it's unclear how much of the antibody test would remain after that much time to defend against a re-infection. There seems to be a big drop off after 3 weeks in antibodies was one report I read.
I don't think our actual case count is a real reflection of how many cases we actually had. At the peak of the outbreak you couldn't even get tested unless you were in a high risk group.

Sconsey · 24-07-2020 02:14PM

No: other

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's fine - if they have it. As the numbers continue to show, the overwhelming majority of people don't.

Life is risky. The way the responses to Covid have been (especially at this stage), we shouldn't really drive or cycle either because there's a chance we might get hurt or die.

Our current level of response is not proportional to the very low level of risk - especially in counties with minimal cases.

It's easy to say it's all good here, we are fine, no need to be so careful, but that can change in a heartbeat. I'm sure the Israleis thought that they were fine in mid-may looking at their numbers... The daily cases half way down the page.
PN8knmRF

Croatia same story...
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Personally I think wearing mask in public indoor places will help reduce the risk of another outbreak for very little effort. I still can't understand the resistance.

Paddygreen · 24-07-2020 02:39PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

I feel like Edward Sissorshands out there beyond my front door going around trying not to touch things.

iamwhoiam · 24-07-2020 03:10PM

Was just in Supervalu in South west Dublin
Delighted to see the vast majority now wearing masks . They are easy to get now too which is making a big difference I think

Glenomra · 24-07-2020 03:40PM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

I know very little about the efficiency of masks in preventing the virus but I have heard from a number of small shop owners that the compulsory wearing of them has resulted in a discernible loss of custom. Before anybody asks, this is anecdotal information!!!!!!!! I cannot provide any professional research to support this view. Is this other people's conclusion also. and if so, will it change as people become more used to wearing the masks.

harr · 24-07-2020 03:48PM

Glenomra wrote: »

I know very little about the efficiency of masks in preventing the virus but I have heard from a number of small shop owners that the compulsory wearing of them has resulted in a discernible loss of custom. Before anybody asks, this is anecdotal information!!!!!!!! I cannot provide any professional research to support this view. Is this other people's conclusion also. and if so, will it change as people become more used to wearing the masks.

I was talking to my local garage owner and he said maybe the first two days were a little quieter as he was asking people to put on a mask some people were reluctant and said they would go somewhere else the same people have now returned with mask on and foot fall is back to normal.
Was in my local aldi this morning and I would say I only seen two people without a mask ... it’s definitely starting to become the norm now .. and I think those not wearing them are making themselves very visible..

bush · 24-07-2020 03:50PM

No: other

Glenomra wrote: »

I know very little about the efficiency of masks in preventing the virus but I have heard from a number of small shop owners that the compulsory wearing of them has resulted in a discernible loss of custom. Before anybody asks, this is anecdotal information!!!!!!!! I cannot provide any professional research to support this view. Is this other people's conclusion also. and if so, will it change as people become more used to wearing the masks.

Well I can say it puts me off going to the shop. I would have gone the last few days but I absolutely hate wearing a mask, I cant breathe. Im just cooking using whatever I have left here instead of going to the shop.

is_that_so · 24-07-2020 03:57PM

No: other

bush wrote: »

Well I can say it puts me off going to the shop. I would have gone the last few days but I absolutely hate wearing a mask, I cant breathe. Im just cooking using whatever I have left here instead of going to the shop.

Do home delivery or click and collect if you can. You might also be able to ask your local shop if you can just collect rather than go inside. Some of them were doing that at the height of it.

bush · 24-07-2020 04:10PM

No: other

is_that_so wrote: »

Do home delivery or click and collect if you can. You might also be able to ask your local shop if you can just collect rather than go inside. Some of them were doing that at the height of it.

Ah ill go to the shops evntually. Im going back to work next week and will probably need to wear a mask anyway. The thoughts of it

Maybe I can find a more breathable mask.

Be right back · 24-07-2020 04:13PM

A very high number were wearing masks in Mahon point. Good to see.

Masks

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