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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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    #242
    afro man
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭afro man


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Roy Keane walked out on the national team in our time of need

    He scuttled back to “sir Alex”

    That to me says a lot about the man and I would never consider him a great Irish sports man after his little amateur dramatics hour in Saipan

    Did Mick Mc Carthy not send him Home :confused:


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    #243
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,353 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    afro man wrote: »
    Did Mick Mc Carthy not send him Home :confused:

    Yeah because Roy threw the rattler out of the pram


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    #244
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Homelander wrote: »
    Eh, what?

    Literally, his last fights have been:

    Cerrone - knocked him out in 30 seconds. Now, obviously, Cerrone is past his prime, but he's never been knocked out that quick and dominantly before.

    Khabib - lost in Round 4 to someone, who has literally not been defeated, ever, and is arguably the best lightweight of all time. In fact, McGregor put up as good, if not better, fight than Dustin Porier did, but the fight ended exactly the same way - overwhelmingly wresting from Khabib.

    Mayweather - lost to the best boxer in the world, as literally anyone with half a brain cell knew beforehand would happen, it was only ever about money for the pair of them, who were laughing from the get go.

    Alvarez - Wrecked him, and became the UFC's first two division champion.

    Those are his last 4 fights. I'm not seeing what's so bad about them. His record is still 22-4 with 19 knockouts.



    Not sure why people keep bringing up these weird strawmen. No-one claimed MMA is as popular as Football? But McGregor has global reach and fame on-par with many footballers.

    I mean, what's Kim Kardashian famous for? A sex tape, a braindead reality TV show, being married to that spanner Kanye West?

    That doesn't change the fact that she's one of the most famous people in the world.



    So he is 50% for his last four fights, and that’s supposed to be great?

    The truth of the matter is that McGregor has chased money over a lasting legacy of greatness in MMA, there is nothing wrong with that, I would have done the exact same as would many others, but don’t start talking about him being the greatest when he is leaving his talent behind and going off to take a beating in a different sport because of the payday

    If he wanted to be considered the best he should have concentrated on defending his belts and beating the best challengers, instead he went boxing and came back to get hammered by kabib.


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    #245
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,129 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    ratracer wrote: »
    Seán Kelly!

    People, especially thre kids around here, don't realise it now, but he was unofficial world's no.1 for at least 5 years.
    They had no official world rankings.

    The guys that won the major tours only did the major tours whereas Kelly was humping around all the one days and other events from Feb to October every year.

    He won one day classics like Giro di Lombardia, Milan–San Remo, Paris–Roubaix and Liège–Bastogne–Liège multiple times.

    He won Paris–Nice seven years in a row.

    And he was hard as nails.
    He rode a stage of Tour De France with a broken collarbone.
    He rode multiple stages of Vuelta a Espana with an abscess on his ass.
    Riding a bike the whole day in the Spanish summer heat with a boil on your ar** has to be fooking hard.
    joe40 wrote: »
    Yeah, you're probably right. The sport Keane played in, is played by millions of people world wide, so to be competitive at a high level in such a popular sport is indeed a great achievement.

    There are probably only a handful of elite MMA fighter so McGregor doesn't compare.

    Ahh FFS Keane wasn't even our best ever soccer player.
    Giles, Brady and McGrath were better players.

    Oh and Giles was a tougher nut than Keane could ever dream to be.
    Giles lamped Keegan when he was considered one of England's best players, whereas Keane could only indulge in handbags with Shearer.

    BTW when anyone starts listing how many trophies someone has won as measure of how good they are, just think Jerzy Dudek has a champions league winners medal whereas Gigi Buffon hasn't.
    Does that mean he was a better keeper ?
    Likewise Pogba has world cup winners medal and Messi, Baggio don't, so which are better players ?
    cdeb wrote: »
    Clifton Hugh Lancelot de Verdon Wrottesley

    Came fourth in the skeleton in the Winter Olympics despite us not having any aul bit of snow since that one time yer man hit his head off the footpath on the news

    It would be between himself and Joey Dunlop when it came to Irish sportsperson with the biggest balls.

    Now there was a sportsman and gentleman Joey Dunlop.


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    #246
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    The complete lack of credibility that cycling has (and rightly so) will always preclude somebody from getting the title of greatness and if its ok to rule out a rugby player because Rugby isnt a global sport, then its equally ok to rule out a cyclist. Only 13 countries have a top level cycling team in 2020.


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    #247
    ErnestBorgnine
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    The complete lack of credibility that cycling has (and rightly so) will always preclude somebody from getting the title of greatness and if its ok to rule out a rugby player because Rugby isnt a global sport, then its equally ok to rule out a cyclist. Only 13 countries have a top level cycling team in 2020.


    Sean Kelly was salt of the earth type thou, rugby is full of ****.


    That has to count for something.


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    #248
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    The complete lack of credibility that cycling has (and rightly so) will always preclude somebody from getting the title of greatness and if its ok to rule out a rugby player because Rugby isnt a global sport, then its equally ok to rule out a cyclist. Only 1 countries have a top level cycling team in 2020.
    their have been and still are world class cyclists from all over the world .All you have to do is look at the results of the races in any year . Even in Kelly's era the eastern block countries all the european countries were competing as were Australians , americans north and south . Indeed some of the best ''grand tour'' rider were columbians , tiny little lads but boy could they go uphill fast. If you look at kelly's last world championship medal an american and russian beat him . National teams only compete in a few races , professional teams made up from riders from all over the world compete in the vast majority of races . before you turn pro you have to have won top level races and be among the best of the best in your country. To win a race you are competing against up to 200 of the best in the world and sometimes in conditions most other competitions would be called off . Cold, rain , snow , heat races are only very rarely stopped usually because roads are blocked/flooded and impassible . Top level professional races also take place all over the world and professionals can race for up to 10 months of the year.
    Just out of interest what is the 1 country you would class as having top level team

    as you have edited your post . National teams have very little to do with the professional side of the sport which is where the vast majority of the sport takes place and there is some who would say that in the olympics and world championships where riders compete on national teams that their is often conflict as riders are racing against people who would normally be team mates in the pro teams. It would be hard to race against people who are your team mates on your professional team for the vast vast majority of the season and where you make your living


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    #249
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Sean Kelly is indeed a legend

    No nonsense tipperary man who always came off the saddle for interviews sounding like a farmer hungry for a feed of spuds after a day footing turf


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    #250
    a very cool kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭a very cool kid


    jmayo wrote: »
    He rode multiple stages of Vuelta a Espana with an abscess on his ass.
    Riding a bike the whole day in the Spanish summer heat with a boil on your ar** has to be fooking hard.
    .

    Could you imagine the relief when it was burst/lanced that night??


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    #251
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    a very cool kid wrote: »
    Could you imagine the relief when it was burst/lanced that night??
    and then come back a year later and win the race . Never any conflict or complaints within the teams he was on , just got on with the job .


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    #252
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    ErnestBorgnine wrote: »
    Sean Kelly was salt of the earth type thou, rugby is full of ****.


    That has to count for something.

    Hes not dead you know.


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    #253
    ErnestBorgnine
    Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Hes not dead you know.

    Oh aye yeah. Don't know why i said "was", probably because i've not heard much from him since he retired.

    If only he hadn't chosen the wrong gear in the WC in '89!


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    #254
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    wexandproud wrote: »
    their have been and still are world class cyclists from all over the world .All you have to do is look at the results of the races in any year . Even in Kelly's era the eastern block countries all the european countries were competing as were Australians , americans north and south . Indeed some of the best ''grand tour'' rider were columbians , tiny little lads but boy could they go uphill fast. If you look at kelly's last world championship medal an american and russian beat him . National teams only compete in a few races , professional teams made up from riders from all over the world compete in the vast majority of races . before you turn pro you have to have won top level races and be among the best of the best in your country. To win a race you are competing against up to 200 of the best in the world and sometimes in conditions most other competitions would be called off . Cold, rain , snow , heat races are only very rarely stopped usually because roads are blocked/flooded and impassible . Top level professional races also take place all over the world and professionals can race for up to 10 months of the year.
    Just out of interest what is the 1 country you would class as having top level team

    as you have edited your post . National teams have very little to do with the professional side of the sport which is where the vast majority of the sport takes place and there is some who would say that in the olympics and world championships where riders compete on national teams that their is often conflict as riders are racing against people who would normally be team mates in the pro teams. It would be hard to race against people who are your team mates on your professional team for the vast vast majority of the season and where you make your living


    Cycling is not any more popular at the highest level than Rugby, thats the original point. Of the last TDF only 30 countries had professional riders make the start line. There were 20 teams at the last Rugby world cup, and 13 that didnt qualify.

    So if you want rule out one sportsman because of the popularity of the sport then rule out all sports that are not as big.


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    #255
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Your having a laugh, the other 3 are only legends by Irish Standards. Keane is a legend by world standards, he's one of the best players to ever play in English football.

    Brady is still highly regarded in Italy. Giles is highly regarded in the UK as is McGrath.

    Keane won more titles and slapped respect into his more skillful team mates and influenced matches. He is highly regarded world wide.


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    #256
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Hes not dead you know.
    long live the ''king '' kelly
    He's still as down to earth as ever can talk about gaa and his donkeys as easy as cycling and never i won this or that race . Getting him to talk about his success is like pulling teeth . Saw him on a charity event a few years back , a crowd of us in a hall having coffee he was having a bit of crack with a visually impaired cyclist who he seemingly knew . anybody who was within earshot was in knots laughing with the two of them taking the pi.. out of each other .


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    #257
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    ErnestBorgnine wrote: »
    Oh aye yeah. Don't know why i said "was", probably because i've not heard much from him since he retired.

    If only he hadn't chosen the wrong gear in the WC in '89!


    Ive been fortunate enough to send time in his company in the last few years, and hes one funny man. Dead pan droll funny - the best type


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    #258
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    John Giles was a sublime passer of the ball with a superb first touch, a lot like cesc fabregas in style

    Keane was a classic midfield General, a great leader of men through sheer brute force and will,there was more drive in him than total football


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    #259
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Mister Vain wrote: »
    I think McGregor would need to fight for a few more years before he could be considered the greatest. He achieved a lot in a short period of time though.

    Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. Without the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

    I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?


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    #260
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    py2006 wrote: »
    Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. With the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

    I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

    Hes had more retirements that victories in the last few years alright


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    #261
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Homelander wrote: »

    When he's literally one of the most famous athletes in the world.

    Famous but not the best sports person.


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    #262
    Kilboor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Kilboor


    py2006 wrote: »
    Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. Without the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

    I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

    First UFC two weight champion and he's fought and beat some of the best. Also extremely entertaining to watch.

    You have to remember people gave him little chance vs Aldo (and we know what happened) and little chance vs Diaz especially in the rematch.


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    #263
    wexandproud
    Registered Users Posts: 1,063 ✭✭✭wexandproud


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Cycling is not any more popular at the highest level than Rugby, thats the original point. Of the last TDF only 30 countries had professional riders make the start line. There were 20 teams at the last Rugby world cup, and 13 that didnt qualify.

    So if you want rule out one sportsman because of the popularity of the sport then rule out all sports that are not as big.
    so you change the discussion from 13 national teams too only professional from 30 countries . The TDF IS a race for only the top teams with a few wild card entries there would be plenty of teams with plenty of nationalities represented that dont qualify for the race .


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    #264
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Kilboor wrote: »
    First UFC two weight champion and he's fought and beat some of the best. Also extremely entertaining to watch.

    You have to remember people gave him little chance vs Aldo (and we know what happened) and little chance vs Diaz especially in the rematch.

    He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.


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    #265
    Kilboor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Kilboor


    begbysback wrote: »
    He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.

    Who knows but he certainly didn't spoof his way into the limelight. He fought his way.


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    #266
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    wexandproud wrote: »
    so you change the discussion from 13 national teams too only professional from 30 countries . The TDF IS a race for only the top teams with a few wild card entries there would be plenty of teams with plenty of nationalities represented that dont qualify for the race .

    Only 13 countries had teams in the last TDF.
    There isnt a discussion, Cycling and Rugby are not far apart in terms of participation at the highest level. If you want to exclude BOD because rugby isnt massive worldwide then exclude cycling also.

    If you want to look at this...
    https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20160815-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-reaches-125-000-members-milestone-0#:~:text=Clubs%20are%20booming%20%2D%20British%20Cycling,29.500%20to%20more%20than%2062%2C000.

    and this

    https://www.ruck.co.uk/top-20-country-registered-rugby-players-world/5/


    Then Rugby is far more popular in many places, the UK as above, but in france there are 110k cyclists and 540k rugby players.


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    #267
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    begbysback wrote: »
    He’s the Eric Cantona of MMA, puts on a good show, very talented and has achieved a high standard in his sport, will he ever be mentioned in future conversations as a great of MMA - highly unlikely.

    I think Eric knocked down more opponents with his leg kicks.


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    #268
    afro man
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭afro man


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    Yeah because Roy threw the rattler out of the pram

    so what your saying then is that roy keane did not walk out on Ireland


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    #269
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭Homelander


    py2006 wrote: »
    Did he though? I think he spoofed his way with the Americans buying into the whole fighting irish, gift for the gab nonsense. Without the personality (loathed here but loved by Americans) I don't think he would be anywhere near as successful.

    I am not UFC fan but hasn't he lost nearly as much as he won?

    He would be successful just not a mega-millionaire....just a normal millionaire.

    I don't know where you got the "lost as much as he won" bit, he's 22-4 in pro-MMA and 10-2 in the UFC.

    An exceptionally good record. When he won the first belt, it was a 7 fight win streak in the UFC and he KO'd the champ, who himself hadn't lost a fight or been KO'd in 10 years.

    So, a fairly remarkable and elite fighter that was always destined to succeed within the sport, loud mouth or not.

    Not gonna be considered among the greatest ever, but will certainly be one of the most remembered, bit like The Rock or Hulk Hogan with the WWF.


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    #270
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    ErnestBorgnine wrote: »
    Sean Kelly was salt of the earth type thou, rugby is full of ****.


    That has to count for something.

    Salt of the earth is great and all... but it's not greatness!

    Zero tour de france wins. He had the potential, but never got the job done.

    Roche at least got one win. He more than likely doped, but then so did everyone else. (Probably including Kelly too, as one of his teammates was popped for something early on and banned)

    But I agree with others, cycling is filthy as fcuk... there is no integrity in that sport. So you cannot pick a cyclist as our greatest ever! Not if you like any degree of respectability in your sports stars!


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    #271
    Choochtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Choochtown


    Unfortunately to qualify as being the "best Irish Sports person ever" you must have some sort of loyalty to Ireland. Keane's walkout before the World Cup in 2002 is well documented but as well as that, his time as the National team's assistant manager showed that money was far more important to Roy than doing his job to the best of his ability.

    Whilst working as Martin O'Neill's assistant Roy,

    1. Took a side job as Aston Villa's assistant manager (extra cash for Roy, less time opportunity to view games involving Irish players, conflict of interests regarding Villa's Irish players)

    2. Timed the release of his book to just before a crucial Euro championship qualifier to gain maximum exposure for it (extra cash for Roy, less time with the team due to media promotions and interviews for his book, distraction from a very important match)

    and

    3. Abandoned the squad the day before a match to fly out to Lisbon and take ITV money as a pundit for the Champions League final (extra cash for Roy, less time preparing the team and clear message sent to the team regarding priorities)


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