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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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    #212
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,854 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    joe40 wrote:
    I know McGregor is well known in Ireland, but outside of Ireland and outside the fairly niche sport of MMA I don't think he would be well known at all.
    McGregor is known worldwide no doubt about that. When you see players all over the world in different sports copying his walk you know a guy is really big worldwide. Please let's not descend a bit a discussion on whether it's his walk not not, it's not important.
    I'm not a lover or hater of McGregor. I didn't like the way he went on the last couple of years with the nasty trash talk but understand it's a business move. I don't really pass much heed on his personal life but obviously have heard about the alleged assault and that's not nice.
    Still doesn't take away from.howcwell known he is though. Deffo most well known Irish sportsperson and maybe most well known Irish person globally.

    joe40 wrote:
    In order to decide the greatest sports person you would have to decide a particular criteria beforehand.
    I think success has to be a big part of it.

    Like if you are named the world's best at any point then that's a huge thing. That's why, for me, it's hard to beat Katie Taylor who has been the AIBA Women's boxer of the year as an amateur and the British and American sportswriters both named her their professional.womens boxer of the year. She has numerous Irish awards too and then there's the Olympic gold, 5 world titles and 6 European titles as an amateur among her 18 hold medals. She then goes pro and not only wins a world title but unified the belts and then moved up a weight class and won the title.
    And she was also the FAI under 19 international women's player of the year at soccer and played 11 times for the senior international team before quitting at 23 years of age to concentrate on her boxing career.


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    #213
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,374 ✭✭✭Homelander


    joe40 wrote: »
    There is no way McGregor is well known outside Ireland or MMA circles.

    Stop embarrassing yourself.


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    #214
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    Roy Keane was a great player, but he only has one Champions League to his name in his entire career... and he didn't even play in that final.

    People tend to overhype the premier league and how much it's really worth in terms of sporting achievement. To truly be classed among the greats of the game, you really need to be dominating both domestically and in europe. Keane's man utd team never really did that consistently. (Apart from the treble season - but that was only one season out of about 13/14 that he was at the club)

    How many clubs in football the world over though have managed to win their own league, Europe and their domestic cup in one season ? Keane captained United to the achievement...

    Klinsmann, Fabregas, Shearer, blanc, Weah, Batistuta, Viera, Nedved, Baggio, Totti, Bergkamp , Buffon, Ronaldo (Brazil) .... are all considered some of the greatest players over the last 20-25 years... none of these guys won a treble, in fact none of them can even boast a single Champions League winners medal to their name.

    All those players are some of the greats the game has ever given us, that’s not open to question. But have never been successful in Europe despite being with excellent teams.


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    #215
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Homelander wrote: »
    Stop embarrassing yourself.

    Why do people get so uppity about McGregor.

    The previous poster made a perfectly reasonable post about why he believes McGregor is in fact well known outside Ireland. I don't necessarily accept his opinion but it was said in a mannerly way I'll take on board what he said.

    Nonsense about "embarrassing myself" is just stupid. Some McGregor fanboys seem to take this stuff far too personally.


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    #216
    ErnestBorgnine
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    Strumms wrote: »
    How many clubs in football the world over though have managed to win their own league, Europe and their domestic cup in one season ? Keane captained United to the achievement...

    Klinsmann, Fabregas, Shearer, blanc, Weah, Batistuta, Viera, Nedved, Baggio, Totti, Bergkamp , Buffon, Ronaldo (Brazil) .... are all considered some of the greatest players over the last 20-25 years... none of these guys won a treble, in fact none of them can even boast a single Champions League winners medal to their name.

    All those players are some of the greats the game has ever given us, that’s not open to question. But have never been successful in Europe despite being with excellent teams.


    Klinsmann, Fabregas, blanc,, Viera, Totti, Buffon, Ronaldo (Brazil) all won the World Cup.

    Keane went home and walked his dog.


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    #217
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,374 ✭✭✭Homelander


    joe40 wrote: »
    Why do people get so uppity about McGregor.

    The previous poster made a perfectly reasonable post about why he believes McGregor is in fact well known outside Ireland. I don't necessarily accept his opinion but it was said in a mannerly way I'll take on board what he said.

    Nonsense about "embarrassing myself" is just stupid. Some McGregor fanboys seem to take this stuff far too personally.

    Nothing to do with fanboys. I don't give a crap about McGregor or what he gets up to.

    Your "opinion" is basically 1+1=3.

    McGregor is, objectively, one of the most famous athletes in the world. That's not opinion, that is literal fact.

    And you're attempting to argue that he's not well known outside of Ireland.

    So it belongs in the same category of opinion as "the earth is flat" and "5G causes autism".


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    #218
    Sir Guy who smiles
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Sir Guy who smiles


    endacl wrote: »
    By what measure? Henry Shefflin earned more silverware, captained more teams, and played for longer. Not international though.

    The question is, as both Keane and Shefflin would agree no doubt, pointless. And any answer would be incorrect as it could easily be logically dismantled. ‘Who was the best ever’ is a mindset lads carry over from the playground debates of which was the best dinosaur, and Oasis v Blur.

    Spinasaurous


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    #219
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    ErnestBorgnine wrote: »
    Klinsmann, Fabregas, blanc,, Viera, Totti, Buffon, Ronaldo (Brazil) all won the World Cup.

    Keane went home and walked his dog.

    Keane could have walked his pet budgie but he wasn’t playing in a team capable of winning a World Cup.

    None of the above players while achieving internationally in a once in four year competition... ever succeeded in the general rigorous and competitiveness of Europe, Keane did, Keane was never going to do it Internationally as he never had the talent beside him sadly.. talk about Saipan till the cows come home.


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    #220
    AdrianBalboa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 475 ✭✭AdrianBalboa


    eagle eye wrote: »
    McGregor is known worldwide no doubt about that. When you see players all over the world in different sports copying his walk you know a guy is really big worldwide. Please let's not descend a bit a discussion on whether it's his walk not not, it's not important.
    I'm not a lover or hater of McGregor. I didn't like the way he went on the last couple of years with the nasty trash talk but understand it's a business move. I don't really pass much heed on his personal life but obviously have heard about the alleged assault and that's not nice.
    Still doesn't take away from.howcwell known he is though. Deffo most well known Irish sportsperson and maybe most well known Irish person globally.



    I think success has to be a big part of it.

    Like if you are named the world's best at any point then that's a huge thing. That's why, for me, it's hard to beat Katie Taylor who has been the AIBA Women's boxer of the year as an amateur and the British and American sportswriters both named her their professional.womens boxer of the year. She has numerous Irish awards too and then there's the Olympic gold, 5 world titles and 6 European titles as an amateur among her 18 hold medals. She then goes pro and not only wins a world title but unified the belts and then moved up a weight class and won the title.
    And she was also the FAI under 19 international women's player of the year at soccer and played 11 times for the senior international team before quitting at 23 years of age to concentrate on her boxing career.

    Katie Taylor is definitely Ireland's greatest sportsperson but her achievements are consistently overlooked because of our society's patriarchal capitalist focus on male sports people or whoever makes the most money. This kind of latent misogyny is why Michelle Smith has been totally scrubbed from history, despite the fact that almost every male professional athlete is just as dirty as she was.


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    #221
    ErnestBorgnine
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    Strumms wrote: »
    Keane could have walked his pet budgie but he wasn’t playing in a team capable of winning a World Cup.

    None of the above players while achieving internationally in a once in four year competition... ever succeeded in the general rigorous and competitiveness of Europe, Keane did, Keane was never going to do it Internationally as he never had the talent beside him sadly.. talk about Saipan till the cows come home.

    He has 1 CL title, which puts him on the same level as Djimi Traore. Probably slightly behind him actually as Keane played in a better team.

    It's almost as if choosing a single arbitrary individual measure in a team sport to determine who is better is kinda silly.


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    #222
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Homelander wrote: »
    Nothing to do with fanboys. I don't give a crap about McGregor or what he gets up to.

    Your "opinion" is basically 1+1=3.

    McGregor is, objectively, one of the most famous athletes in the world. That's not opinion, that is literal fact.

    And you're attempting to argue that he's not well known outside of Ireland.

    So it belongs in the same category of opinion as "the earth is flat" and "5G causes autism".


    Why is McGregor famous but other MMA stars aren't?
    I have no doubt he is well known, but no way is he one of the most famous athletes in the world. I just don't understand how a niche sport could produce a world wide sportstar.

    If you can give me evidence, without such an argumentative tone, I'll engage.

    I just don't think an average French or German person would know who McGregor is compared to someone like tiger woods or Usain Bolt.


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    #223
    Kilboor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Kilboor


    AdrianBalboa wrote: »
    Katie Taylor is definitely Ireland's greatest sportsperson but her achievements are consistently overlooked because of our society's patriarchal capitalist focus on male sports people or whoever makes the most money. This kind of latent misogyny is why Michelle Smith has been totally scrubbed from history, despite the fact that almost every male professional athlete is just as dirty as she was.

    Katie Taylor is a fantastic athlete and an all time great boxer. However women's boxing is nowhere near as competitive (due to women not having the same opportunities or push to take up boxing), or skillful as men's boxing.

    It's not patriarchal or sexist to say that men's boxing is harder hitting, more skillful, more competitive and contains a lot more weight and history.

    Katie is a great role model for future generations of women boxers though.


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    #224
    Kilboor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Kilboor


    joe40 wrote: »
    Why is McGregor famous but other MMA stars aren't?
    I have no doubt he is well known, but no way is he one of the most famous athletes in the world. I just don't understand how a niche sport could produce a world wide sportstar.

    If you can give me evidence, without such an argumentative tone, I'll engage.

    I just don't think an average French or German person would know who McGregor is compared to someone like tiger woods or Usain Bolt.

    McGregor is the most famous UFC fighter of all time and arguably has done more to push UFC and MMA to the masses than any other character in the sport. The reason being is because he has a unique and confident personality not too unlike Ali back in the boxing days. He has come up against the best in UFC and beat them with the odds against him, even predicting how he would do it. He is loud mouthed, confident, the first two weight world champion, and a damn good entertaining fighter.

    He has even transitioned into boxing and fought arguably one of the best boxers of all time in Floyd Mayweather which drew a near record PPV audience and income. You're absolutely delusional if you think he's not known worldwide.

    Net Worth of probably a quarter of a billion euro.

    https://www.ranker.com/list/most-famous-athletes-right-now/celebrity-lists

    No.5 on this Worldwide ranking list


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    #225
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Strumms wrote: »
    How many clubs in football the world over though have managed to win their own league, Europe and their domestic cup in one season ? Keane captained United to the achievement...

    Klinsmann, Fabregas, Shearer, blanc, Weah, Batistuta, Viera, Nedved, Baggio, Totti, Bergkamp , Buffon, Ronaldo (Brazil) .... are all considered some of the greatest players over the last 20-25 years... none of these guys won a treble, in fact none of them can even boast a single Champions League winners medal to their name.

    All those players are some of the greats the game has ever given us, that’s not open to question. But have never been successful in Europe despite being with excellent teams.

    Barcelona have done the treble twice in the 20 odd years since Man Utd did it... I think Inter Milan and Bayern Munich have also completed trebles as well in that same period too.

    So it's not quite as unique an achievement as the sky sports and Man Utd fans would like to believe. (But of course their bias towards their own league, makes them think that their treble was more important)

    Still a great achievement though... it's not easy to accomplish. It's still only one great season though.

    Why did that Man Utd team never make it back to any more CL finals? Ferguson and Keane himself have both acknowledged that they seriously underachieved in europe in the years after that treble win.

    Getting knocked out against teams like Deportivo and Leverkusen was a big failure for that team... that treble team was stacked with world class players in almost every position, and Ferguson had huge amounts of cash to spend in those years... relative to the time in question of course. They were one of the top 3 richest clubs in the world.

    Great players and great teams don't just do it for one season... they have a period of dominance. That United team had a period of dominance domestically, but they failed to do it in Europe. They cannot really be classed as one of the truly great teams in history, not just based on one outstanding season. For a player like Keane, to have never played in a CL final in his entire career is a big disappointment.


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    #226
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    begbysback wrote: »
    Rugby has zero credibility with the amount of overhyped friendlies, it’s structured terribly, how can it be taken seriously when the sport tries to sell games where a bunch of northern hemisphere players are picked to play a bunch of southern hemisphere players, and it’s marketed as if it’s a war, another overhyped friendly which most people don’t care about. No rugby player should ever get “greatest” anything, you may as well pick a cricket player.

    Overhyped friendles they are, I can agree with you there, but they still have far greater intensity and physicality than the hardest soccer game ever witnessed

    They dont try and sell them, because they have no issues getting full houses for every "friendly". Autumn internationals are normally alwas full houses in the northern hemisphere.


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    #227
    ThewhiteJesus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭ThewhiteJesus


    An honourable mention to Padraig Harrington a three time major champion and all round good guy,
    but for "best" i would have to agree with Roy Keane by a million miles


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    #228
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Mcgregor has had more retirements than fights in the last 5 years.

    His record in the last 4 years is bad, and thats when at 28-32 years old he should be in his prime.

    To say he is the greatest sportsman is just some weird homoerotic fascination that shoes without sock wearing people who consider insta photos in the gym a competitive sport go on with.

    The only thing Mcgregor could be considered the greatest irish person at is cutting weight, and frankly there are probably 20 jockeys ahead of him in that regard.


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    #229
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,960 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    ErnestBorgnine wrote: »
    He has 1 CL title, which puts him on the same level as Djimi Traore. Probably slightly behind him actually as Keane played in a better team.

    It's almost as if choosing a single arbitrary individual measure in a team sport to determine who is better is kinda silly.

    Nope. You don’t get solely judged as an athlete or sports person by virtue of one competition. You have been furnished with Keane record.

    That’s like saying Roberto Baggio is on the same level as Jorge Burruchaga. Have won a World Cup each and both having scored in the finals.


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    #230
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,536 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    ThewhiteJesus wrote: »
    An honourable mention to Padraig Harrington a three time major champion and all round good guy,
    but for "best" i would have to agree with Roy Keane by a million miles

    Then where does Denis Irwin come in that, because he has the same


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    #231
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,333 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Homelander wrote: »
    Which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with your deluded initial claim that Conor McGregor isn't well known outside of Ireland.

    When he's literally one of the most famous athletes in the world.

    It's OK to be wrong.

    Ah here. He is famous in pop culture in the US which seems to be all that counts for some people. MMA is no where near as popular worldwide as football. Go out of the Anglosphere and you would be hard pressed to find anyone who knows him. Even within the Anglosphere you would not really be aware of him unless you read the celebrity gossip sections on news sites.


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    #232
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users Posts: 15,405 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Roy Keane walked out on the national team in our time of need

    He scuttled back to “sir Alex”

    That to me says a lot about the man and I would never consider him a great Irish sports man after his little amateur dramatics hour in Saipan


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    #233
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,464 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Padraic Harrington?


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    #234
    Kilboor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Kilboor


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Ah here. He is famous in pop culture in the US which seems to be all that counts for some people. MMA is no where near as popular worldwide as football. Go out of the Anglosphere and you would be hard pressed to find anyone who knows him. Even within the Anglosphere you would not really be aware of him unless you read the celebrity gossip sections on news sites.

    http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/26113613/espn-world-fame-100-2019

    I don't understand how people can not appreciate McGregor's success and fame. I get the hate for the man personally but saying he's not known worldwide or that his accomplishments are nothing is absolutely ridiculous.

    I'm also not saying he is the best Irish sports person ever.


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    #235
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Strumms wrote: »
    Nope. You don’t get solely judged as an athlete or sports person by virtue of one competition. You have been furnished with Keane record.

    That’s like saying Roberto Baggio is on the same level as Jorge Burruchaga. Have won a World Cup each and both having scored in the finals.

    Paolo Maldini won the same amount of league titles as keane, but also played in 6 Champions League finals - winning 5 of them!

    Keane has played in zero Champions League finals.

    I'm sorry, but that Man Utd team seriously underachieved in Europe after winning the treble. When you have both Ferguson and Keane admitting this, you know it's the truth. (Particularly Ferguson - who very rarely admits to his own failings in anything!)


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    #236
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,187 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Poorside wrote: »
    Well that certainly makes him out greatest ever sportsman, was Hitler a sportsman of any sort?

    A rather sarky post ;)
    You see Poorside awards, accolades and even medals are fine and dandy. But money is what counts. That's the true measurement of success.

    Personally I think McGregor is a wan*er but who cares what I think. McGregor is believed to have a couple of hundred million. That right there makes him the best.


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    #237
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Strumms wrote: »
    Nope. You don’t get solely judged as an athlete or sports person by virtue of one competition. You have been furnished with Keane record.

    That’s like saying Roberto Baggio is on the same level as Jorge Burruchaga. Have won a World Cup each and both having scored in the finals.

    When did Roberto Baggio win a world Cup?


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    #238
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,374 ✭✭✭Homelander


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    His record in the last 4 years is bad, and thats when at 28-32 years old he should be in his prime.

    Eh, what?

    Literally, his last fights have been:

    Cerrone - knocked him out in 30 seconds. Now, obviously, Cerrone is past his prime, but he's never been knocked out that quick and dominantly before.

    Khabib - lost in Round 4 to someone, who has literally not been defeated, ever, and is arguably the best lightweight of all time. In fact, McGregor put up as good, if not better, fight than Dustin Porier did, but the fight ended exactly the same way - overwhelmingly wresting from Khabib.

    Mayweather - lost to the best boxer in the world, as literally anyone with half a brain cell knew beforehand would happen, it was only ever about money for the pair of them, who were laughing from the get go.

    Alvarez - Wrecked him, and became the UFC's first two division champion.

    Those are his last 4 fights. I'm not seeing what's so bad about them. His record is still 22-4 with 19 knockouts.
    Ah here. He is famous in pop culture in the US which seems to be all that counts for some people. MMA is no where near as popular worldwide as football. Go out of the Anglosphere and you would be hard pressed to find anyone who knows him. Even within the Anglosphere you would not really be aware of him unless you read the celebrity gossip sections on news sites.

    Not sure why people keep bringing up these weird strawmen. No-one claimed MMA is as popular as Football? But McGregor has global reach and fame on-par with many footballers.

    I mean, what's Kim Kardashian famous for? A sex tape, a braindead reality TV show, being married to that spanner Kanye West?

    That doesn't change the fact that she's one of the most famous people in the world.


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    #239
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    AdrianBalboa wrote: »
    Katie Taylor is definitely Ireland's greatest sportsperson but her achievements are consistently overlooked because of our society's patriarchal

    Maybe more women should get out and support their sisters?


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    #240
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    joe40 wrote: »
    Why is McGregor famous but other MMA stars aren't?
    I have no doubt he is well known, but no way is he one of the most famous athletes in the world. I just don't understand how a niche sport could produce a world wide sportstar.

    If you can give me evidence, without such an argumentative tone, I'll engage.

    A simple test would be to start typing C-O-N-O into google and see what comes up in the auto fill. Or if you search “Conor McGregor Famous” it gives a plethora of articles about his superstardom.

    Like it or not, he’s noteworthy. For the record I think he’s a knackbag.


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    #241
    ErnestBorgnine
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭ErnestBorgnine


    Strumms wrote: »
    Nope. You don’t get solely judged as an athlete or sports person by virtue of one competition. You have been furnished with Keane record.

    That’s like saying Roberto Baggio is on the same level as Jorge Burruchaga. Have won a World Cup each and both having scored in the finals.


    Yeah they are silly comparisons to make i agree, but you started it.


    Your argument is akin to saying Steve McMahon is better than Bryan Robson, count their League. Championship medals


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