How will schools be able to go back in September?

Boggles · 23-07-2020 08:37AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Young kids are low risk with covid - it is well established. As poorly as Sweden have managed this, they left Schools open for the under 16's and experienced no major cluster associated with schools.

Yeah, that ain't true. But probably more importantly they haven't really tested in schools.

I would be very careful citing Sweden as any sort of bastion of honesty when it comes to Covid 19 and how they have mismanaged it.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/how-sweden-wasted-rare-opportunity-study-coronavirus-schools

There’s nearly universal agreement that widespread, long-lasting school closures harm children. Not only do children fall behind in learning, but isolation harms their mental health and leaves some vulnerable to abuse and neglect. But during this pandemic, does that harm outweigh the risk—to children, school staff, families, and the community at large—of keeping schools open and giving the coronavirus more chances to spread?

The one country that could have definitively answered that question has apparently failed to collect any data. Bucking a global trend, Sweden has kept day care centers and schools through ninth grade open since COVID-19 emerged, without any major adjustments to class size, lunch policies, or recess rules. That made the country a perfect natural experiment about schools’ role in viral spread that many others could have learned from as they reopen schools or ponder when to do so. Yet Swedish officials have not tracked infections among school children—even when large outbreaks led to the closure of individual schools or staff members died of the disease.

In the town of Skellefteå, a teacher died and 18 of 76 staff tested positive at a school with about 500 students in preschool through ninth grade. The school closed for 2 weeks because so many staff were sick, but students were not tested for the virus. In Uppsala, staff protested when school officials, citing patient privacy rules, declined to notify families or staff that a teacher had tested positive. No contact tracing was done at the school. At least two staff members at other schools have died, but those schools remained open and no one attempted to trace the spread of the disease there

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 23-07-2020 08:40AM

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

Pity about you not getting your full 3 months holiday and the health care professionals stretched to capacity and suffering burnout.did you see a doctor passed away yesterday as a result of covid in the mater?? Do you think holidays are worrying him? Ffs I’ve seen it all now

Don't waste your time, they are clearly trolling.

Previously quoted the likes of Padraig Flynn

the epitome of self entitlement and insufferable arrogance.

Blondini · 23-07-2020 08:42AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Shur God love ye

Thanks. Also, some of those long days I had to work past 3.55PM. No one thinks of these hardships when they they give out about the teachers. Thanks again.

wrangler · 23-07-2020 08:44AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

The creche with the case this week remained open, only those in contact with the worker being tested.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/health-guidelines-successful-containing-covid-19-creche-case-1049776

Though if that workplace had a 14 day mandatory isolation on return from abroad it would have avoided all of that.

+1
Those making the rules have nothing to lose, their salaries will still continue when it all goes wrong.
I presume that was an independent creche, if so they had to keep open to be paid.

23-07-2020 08:44AM

Doctors room ghost wrote: »

Pity about you not getting your full 3 months holiday and the health care professionals stretched to capacity and suffering burnout.did you see a doctor passed away yesterday as a result of covid in the mater?? Do you think holidays are worrying him? Ffs I’ve seen it all now

There's a small chance that person is a troll...

23-07-2020 08:47AM

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah, that ain't true. But probably more importantly they haven't really tested in schools.

I would be very careful citing Sweden as any sort of bastion of honesty when it comes to Covid 19 and how they have mismanaged it.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/how-sweden-wasted-rare-opportunity-study-coronavirus-schools

It is highly likely transmission in that school was teacher to teacher. No more risk than any other workplace, and clusters and deaths will happen

Switzerland though?

lulublue22 · 23-07-2020 08:47AM

grind gremlin wrote: »

The difficulty lies with siblings. A child in a class with a case could have siblings in other classes.
The reality is, unless class numbers are reduced (at least halved), our children will all be sitting elbow to elbow in poorly ventilated rooms for long periods of time. Any parent knows that children pick up lots of bugs at the beginning of their school going days. Every child that gets any illness takes a parent out of the workforce potentially for 2 weeks. No crèche or minder will want to take them. Many teachers are parents and there is already a crisis in relation to substitute cover. This first term is going to be chaos.

Totally agree with you. There were several times last winter we were open with a substantial reduction in staff due to the normal winter illnesses and little to no subs available. Next year will be very messy in terms of covid like illness/ testing and availability of subs. Not sure parents realise that opening schools is one thing keeping them open is another.

23-07-2020 08:47AM

Blondini wrote: »

Thanks. Also, some of those long days I had to work past 3.55PM. No one thinks of these hardships when they they give out about the teachers. Thanks again.

I wouldn't get too smug. Part of the answer might be to reduce class sizes and prolong the school year. 1 month holidays in summer should be plenty. Christmas and easter holidays reduced too and mid term abolished.

lulublue22 · 23-07-2020 08:54AM

Can we not derail the thread once more with off topic comments on working day ,hols pay conditions etc. It does nothing to address parents / teachers concerns and just starts a whole cycle of negativity and crap again.

History Queen · 23-07-2020 08:58AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is highly likely transmission in that school was teacher to teacher. No more risk than any other workplace, and clusters and deaths will happen

Switzerland though?

Switzerland didn't open their schools as normal.

"Even as Swiss classes re-start, they will hardly be normal.

Awarding of grades has been scrapped. Many schools are splitting classes in half, with attendance trimmed to just two days a week per group, to accommodate that change.

There will be ubiquitous hand-sanitizing stations.

Desks are being moved further apart, with markings being taped to floors, to help children observe new space limits. And older children from their 10th year, as well as university students, must wait until at least June 8 for classes to begin."

Full article below:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-swiss-education/swiss-back-to-school-angst-illustrates-worries-around-easing-lockdowns-idUSKBN22M0EH

jlm29 · 23-07-2020 09:00AM

grind gremlin wrote: »

The difficulty lies with siblings. A child in a class with a case could have siblings in other classes.
The reality is, unless class numbers are reduced (at least halved), our children will all be sitting elbow to elbow in poorly ventilated rooms for long periods of time.

I wonder will there be any capacity to review this case by case. Not every class is huge, and not every class room is tiny. I know ours is unusual, but there’s only 24 in my sons class and some pairs who come out of the same household, and it’s a new building, so not tiny tiny rooms.

Boggles · 23-07-2020 09:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is highly likely transmission in that school was teacher to teacher. No more risk than any other workplace, and clusters and deaths will happen

Or in other words they don't know because they refused to test the pupils, so that means you certainly don't know.

What we do know is, since the schools closed in Sweden instances of the virus has declined, again is this because of school closures and holidays or other factors. Sweden are about as transparent as China when it comes Covid and are not a reliable source.

Switzerland closed their schools and opened for a very short period with strict public health measures.

It's very simple there is no conclusive evidence on what role schools play in the spread of Covid 19, because schools were the first to close in the vast majority of countries.

But children are 100% human, so to suggest that having schools open "fully" will not lead to a spread of virus is quite bizarre as some have been stating.

Doctors room ghost · 23-07-2020 09:03AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's a small chance that person is a troll...

If they are trolling they are up on 500 posts and still claiming to be a teacher.A sorry existence if that’s the case.touch of a personality disorder perhaps

lulublue22 · 23-07-2020 09:06AM

jlm29 wrote: »

I wonder will there be any capacity to review this case by case. Not every class is huge, and not every class room is tiny. I know ours is unusual, but there’s only 24 in my sons class and some pairs who come out of the same household, and it’s a new building, so not tiny tiny rooms.

It could be a case that the dep will issue guidelines re SD or numbers in a pod like situation so if they do I do think there could be variations among schools due to class / school sizes , buildings , building lay out etc.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 23-07-2020 09:07AM

jlm29 wrote: »

I wonder will there be any capacity to review this case by case. Not every class is huge, and not every class room is tiny. I know ours is unusual, but there’s only 24 in my sons class and some pairs who come out of the same household, and it’s a new building, so not tiny tiny rooms.

I think that's exactly what will happen, we can't plan for each and every eventuality and we will still be learning as things move along.

My youngest childs school is the same, modern build very spacious with multiple entry and exit points. Thankfully class has just been cut from 33 to 23 for September (not down to covid but due to allocation of extra teacher).

These are the type of things where local knowledge is vital and all the policy in the world from DOE won't tell us class size/location, who are siblings and if a one way system is an option for the premises, etc. Schools will need to take responsibility for these type of logistical things themselves.

morebabies · 23-07-2020 09:09AM

That's horrific about Sweden - deliberately hiding figures of positive cases resulting in deaths of teachers.

I know this is Sky News and a celebrity opinion but after reading about Sweden, it's a perfectly valid reason for teachers to fear a full return to schools:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-foo-fighters-frontman-dave-grohl-criticises-move-to-reopen-schools-saying-teachers-want-to-teach-not-die-12034195

""Most schools already struggle from a lack of resources," Grohl said. "How could they possibly afford the mountain of safety measures that will need to be in place?"...

"Although the average age of a schoolteacher in the United States is in the early 40s, putting them in a lower-risk group, many career teachers, administrators, cafeteria workers, nurses, and janitors are older and at higher risk," he said.

He suggested remote learning as an "inconvenient" but "hopefully temporary" solution...

Grohl finished his impassioned audio note by saying: "Teachers want to teach, not die, and we should support and protect them like the national treasures that they are. For without them, where would we be?"

Moragle · 23-07-2020 09:15AM

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't seen this answered, apologies if it was. I totally understand teachers want to get back to school but in a safe way and are being hampered by the department of education not producing guidance. What are the unions doing?
My own union (pharmacy) keeps us constantly up to date with what they're doing to put pressure on the department of health. For example, they're lobbying for a meeting with Stephen Donnelly on the expansion of the flu vaccine to ensure pharmacists get ppe and are paid properly like the gps for providing it (we had to pay for our own masks/protective screens/sanitiser with no government funding).
What, if anything, are the unions doing to put pressure on the department of education to facilitate the provision of education in September

Boggles · 23-07-2020 09:23AM

Moragle wrote: »

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't seen this answered, apologies if it was. I totally understand teachers want to get back to school but in a safe way and are being hampered by the department of education not producing guidance. What are the unions doing?
My own union (pharmacy) keeps us constantly up to date with what they're doing to put pressure on the department of health. For example, they're lobbying for a meeting with Stephen Donnelly on the expansion of the flu vaccine to ensure pharmacists get ppe and are paid properly like the gps for providing it (we had to pay for our own masks/protective screens/sanitiser with no government funding).
What, if anything, are the unions doing to put pressure on the department of education to facilitate the provision of education in September

Pharmacists are classed as medical health professionals, so not the greatest of comparisons.

As for government funding, Pharmacists can avail of grants to "upgrade" their premises.

They also sell PPE.

They can dictate to the government, it has to come the other way with schools, because they are not medical health professionals and of course the 2 working environments are not even closed to being comparable.

The unions are asking for a clear plan, right now they are getting hopes and aspirations.

Is there another functioning country in Europe on the 23rd of July without a clear plan for reopening of Schools in a month or so?

History Queen · 23-07-2020 09:23AM

Moragle wrote: »

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't seen this answered, apologies if it was. I totally understand teachers want to get back to school but in a safe way and are being hampered by the department of education not producing guidance. What are the unions doing?
My own union (pharmacy) keeps us constantly up to date with what they're doing to put pressure on the department of health. For example, they're lobbying for a meeting with Stephen Donnelly on the expansion of the flu vaccine to ensure pharmacists get ppe and are paid properly like the gps for providing it (we had to pay for our own masks/protective screens/sanitiser with no government funding).
What, if anything, are the unions doing to put pressure on the department of education to facilitate the provision of education in September

My own union hasn't been great for feeding back to members on progress so far, not sure if ASTI/INTO are better, but what the three unions have been doing is:

They've had meeting after exhaustive meeting with the Dept.

Sent in submissions about how schools might safely reopen.

Taken suggestions from members, collated and sent on to the Department.

Appeared in front of Dail Covid Committee to outline concerns and answer questions regarding the unique difficulties faced by schools as opposed to other workplaced.

downthemiddle · 23-07-2020 09:24AM

morebabies wrote: »

That's horrific about Sweden - deliberately hiding figures of positive cases resulting in deaths of teachers.

I know this is Sky News and a celebrity opinion but after reading about Sweden, it's a perfectly valid reason for teachers to fear a full return to schools:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-foo-fighters-frontman-dave-grohl-criticises-move-to-reopen-schools-saying-teachers-want-to-teach-not-die-12034195

""Most schools already struggle from a lack of resources," Grohl said. "How could they possibly afford the mountain of safety measures that will need to be in place?"...

"Although the average age of a schoolteacher in the United States is in the early 40s, putting them in a lower-risk group, many career teachers, administrators, cafeteria workers, nurses, and janitors are older and at higher risk," he said.

He suggested remote learning as an "inconvenient" but "hopefully temporary" solution...

Grohl finished his impassioned audio note by saying: "Teachers want to teach, not die, and we should support and protect them like the national treasures that they are. For without them, where would we be?"

Deleted User wrote: »

No more risk than any other workplace, and clusters and deaths will happen

Some posters seem to think that a level of death is acceptable.

Lillyfae · 23-07-2020 09:26AM

Moragle wrote: »

we had to pay for our own masks/protective screens/sanitiser with no government funding

Agree RE unions having a responsibility to represent their members, but can I ask if you're running a private pharmacy or if you're working out of a hospital? If private, as your own employer and a business owner, why would the government supply your PPE?

khalessi · 23-07-2020 09:27AM

Moragle wrote: »

I've been following this thread for a while but haven't seen this answered, apologies if it was. I totally understand teachers want to get back to school but in a safe way and are being hampered by the department of education not producing guidance. What are the unions doing?
My own union (pharmacy) keeps us constantly up to date with what they're doing to put pressure on the department of health. For example, they're lobbying for a meeting with Stephen Donnelly on the expansion of the flu vaccine to ensure pharmacists get ppe and are paid properly like the gps for providing it (we had to pay for our own masks/protective screens/sanitiser with no government funding).
What, if anything, are the unions doing to put pressure on the department of education to facilitate the provision of education in September

This is on the INTO website they have done the following but no contact with members.

Since the beginning of July, the INTO has been intensively engaged with key primary and special education stakeholders, including Department of Education officials, as preparations advance for the reopening of primary schools in six weeks’ time.

Members of the INTO leadership team have attended numerous remote and face-to-face meetings with departmental officials and with Ministers Norma Foley and Josepha Madigan.

Stakeholder consultation meetings have taken place weekly.

Following discussions involving the INTO, CPSMA and the IPPN, we are currently preparing detailed FAQs for members to support the reopening of our schools. These will be made available on our website in due course.

The union has made detailed submissions to the Department of Education on a wide range of issues relating to the reopening of schools. Engagement is continuing through this week and next. INTO expects that the following items will issue from the Department by the end of July:

A Covid-19 School Response Plan (which details a school policy, staff induction training, appointment of lead worker representative, signage, illustrative classroom layouts, risk assessments, infection control measures and how to deal with suspected cases of Covid-19 in a school setting).
Clarifications on the provision of additional cover for certain categories of teachers’ leave of absence. INTO has prioritised the wide use of supply panels to enable the provision of adequate cover for teachers who may present with Covid-19 symptoms and therefore be instructed not to attend their school.
Curriculum Guidance for primary school leaders and teachers.
A presentation on well-being in school communities.
Guidelines to help schools with the drawdown of hand sanitisers and PPE from the government procurement portal.
Details of a funding package for enhanced cleaning of school buildings.
INTO has provided feedback to the Department of Education on numerous draft documents over recent days and expect to do the same in the coming days.

The INTO has also engaged with the Teaching Council with a view to the fast-tracking the registration of newly qualified primary teachers in Ireland and from overseas.

School leaders

INTO has sought an increase in the number of leadership and management days for teaching principals in our formal engagement with the Department of Education and Skills, in ministerial bilateral meetings, in political representations and in our oral evidence to the Oireachtas Special Committee on Covid-19 response.

Stakeholder engagement

Notable meetings included:

A meeting with Minister Foley and her team on the 1st of July.
Attendance before the Oireachtas Special Committee on Covid-19 response on the 2nd of July. (A copy of our submission is available here).
A Stakeholder meeting with the education partners on the 3rd of July.
INTO hosted a webinar for branch and district officers on the 3rd of July (click here to access the recording in the members’ area of the website).
INTO met with departmental officials on the 7th of July.
Minister Foley attended a stakeholder forum with INTO on the 13th of July
A meeting with Minister Madigan and her team on the 14th of July.
INTO participated in an education roundtable organised by a political party on the 15th of July.
INTO attended a meeting with FORSA and SIPTU, organised by the Department of Education on the 16th of July.
INTO, IPPN and CPSMA working group meetings took place regularly.

I would presume ASTI and TUI doing similar but really at the moment they have no voice.

combat14 · 23-07-2020 09:35AM

just seen today that a second building site in Dublin has at least one case of covid 19. workplace has been shut down for deep clean.

reports today that schools wont be automatically shut down if there are covid cases amongst staff and students...

why is there one set of safety rules for building sites and Tds in their 50,000 euro a day 2000 seater convention centre and different rules for the safety of students and teachers? it doesn't make sense?

if it is not safe for TDs to return to the Dail why should schools reopen? looks like distance blended learning is the way to go for now ....

Lillyfae · 23-07-2020 09:36AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Some posters seem to think that a level of death is acceptable.

Nobody thinks that, some think that the risks can be mitigated with resources and a will to do so

Your quote from David Grohl is not really relevant here, the US have barely made any effort to contain the virus. That's where he is talking about.

jrosen · 23-07-2020 09:46AM

combat14 wrote: »

just seen today that a second building site in Dublin has at least one case of covid 19. workplace has been shut down for deep clean.

reports today that schools wont be automatically shut down if there are covid cases amongst staff and students...

why is there one set of safety rules for building sites and Tds in their 50,000 euro a day 2000 seater convention centre and different rules for the safety of students and teachers? it doesn't make sense?

if it is not safe for TDs to return to the Dail why should schools reopen? looks like distance blended learning is the way to go for now ....

I could apply that argument to everything. If its not safe for TD's then how is it safe for supermarket workers, hair dressers, serving staff in restaurants. None of whom earn a lot an typically have zero benefits.

caveat emptor · 23-07-2020 09:47AM

Zahir Bitter Cellist wrote: »

I think that's exactly what will happen, we can't plan for each and every eventuality and we will still be learning as things move along.

My youngest childs school is the same, modern build very spacious with multiple entry and exit points. Thankfully class has just been cut from 33 to 23 for September (not down to covid but due to allocation of extra teacher).

These are the type of things where local knowledge is vital and all the policy in the world from DOE won't tell us class size/location, who are siblings and if a one way system is an option for the premises, etc. Schools will need to take responsibility for these type of logistical things themselves.

That’s great that virus understands the difference between overcrowded 30 vs your lovely 23.

23-07-2020 09:50AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Some posters seem to think that a level of death is acceptable.

Inevitable, key difference

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 23-07-2020 09:52AM

caveat emptor wrote: »

That’s great that virus understands the difference between overcrowded 30 vs your lovely 23.

It's not better no?

Nothing got to do with Covid as I said, the benefits of having less children in a class from an educational perspective alone shouldn't have to be explained.

After years of being in a class of 33 I welcome the smaller class size.

23-07-2020 09:54AM

Boggles wrote: »

Or in other words they don't know because they refused to test the pupils, so that means you certainly don't know.

What we do know is, since the schools closed in Sweden instances of the virus has declined, again is this because of school closures and holidays or other factors. Sweden are about as transparent as China when it comes Covid and are not a reliable source.

Switzerland closed their schools and opened for a very short period with strict public health measures.

It's very simple there is no conclusive evidence on what role schools play in the spread of Covid 19, because schools were the first to close in the vast majority of countries.

But children are 100% human, so to suggest that having schools open "fully" will not lead to a spread of virus is quite bizarre as some have been stating.

Lower risk of spread not no spread. If we are not on an elimination path wie have to open up on a risk basis and schools are lower risks. Do we believe there will be no measures in schools? Passing the local Primary schools every evening there are always a couple of cars and a van outside. Maybe works are underway. Maybe proactive schools are taking their own initiative while the unions wait to be told what to do so they can demand a covid allowance

wrangler · 23-07-2020 09:56AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

Some posters seem to think that a level of death is acceptable.

Everyone that doesn't take precautions, flaunts the rules, that goes to the supermarkets, pubs, restaurants etc, travels on buses, thinks that a level of death is acceptable. But the country has to be kept going to pay the taxes to pay the PS

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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