If Work From Home becomes a thing...

unhappys10 · 22-07-2020 11:39AM

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

If someone wants to WFH, its their responsibility to ensure they can do so comfortably, and if that includes having space for a fancy chair or not, is down to that person. if they feel lack of space for a big chair prevents them being able to avail of WFH, then they should go back to the office once that option becomes available.

I find the opposite, people dont mind. People want to get work done, and the occasional kid shouting or dog barking wont get in the way for professionals.

I can only speak for our experience, but i have a toddler running around and am no less productive. many on the team have kids and are no less productive. if anything, we all know each other a bit better now from seeing our various circumstances and its actually brought more empathy and flexibility to the team. If a company is getting pissy about a child interrupting 2 mins of an hour meeting every now and again, I probably wouldnt fit into the culture there. YMMV.

It will be a requirement as soon as creche's and schools are viable again and not before, at which point parents will hopefully be happy to have their kids back with their friends and under a structured learning programme.

In the organization i work, and all of my friends, without exception, WFH is now a long term viable option. Productivity has not suffered, some of their companies are even closing down city center offices saving on costs, all are comfortable with employees working from home, as long as theres some flexibility to be in the office on occasion where necessary.

People in my org have even moved out of Dublin and back nearer family based on the new view of WFH.

Perhaps my group of friends and the various organizations we work for are the exception though, and everyone else will be ordered back to their desks at the earliest option.

I sold my car the other day because wfh will be a long term thing. We have a family car and I used the other one to commute. It hadn't covered 100km since March, waste of money having it there so it's gone.
If and when the need arises again I'll buy something cheap instead of having a monthly finance cost to pay.

unhappys10 · 22-07-2020 11:40AM

Cyrus wrote: »

one assumes you would have come up with the template regardless ?

Not necessarily, I had the time at home to think about what could make my life easier instead of being sat in an office with distractions and a 4 hour round trip commuting dealing with traffic and idiots on the road.

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 12:06PM

unhappys10 wrote: »

Not necessarily, I had the time at home to think about what could make my life easier instead of being sat in an office with distractions and a 4 hour round trip commuting dealing with traffic and idiots on the road.

4 hour round trip, jesus no wonder you are happy WFH

strandroad · 22-07-2020 12:20PM

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Perhaps my group of friends and the various organizations we work for are the exception though, and everyone else will be ordered back to their desks at the earliest option.

It completely tallies with the trends in my company and my friends' employers too, all MN though.

maherhonda · 22-07-2020 01:02PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Fine for people who have enough space in their houses for office chairs - but many don't.

People making allowances for dogs / kids in the background is fine in pandemic circumstances, but won't last forever. Not being responsible for kids during work hours will soon enough be a requirement.

I'd love to know the type of company you work in. It sounds like absolute hell. Your views on work places are about twenty years outdated.

Dyr · 22-07-2020 02:51PM

Biker79 wrote: »

There arent as many options as you might think. Other companies wont neccessarily be offering something different.

If anythign we could see most companies hunkering down, reluctant to try untested ways of working. 5 months isnt long enough to test WFH as a permanent option.

How long would you say is long enough, 12 months? 18 months? 5 years?

5-6 months is as long a test as most companies would envisage for a change to an organisation

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 03:23PM

Bambi wrote: »

How long would you say is long enough, 12 months? 18 months? 5 years?

5-6 months is as long a test as most companies would envisage for a change to an organisation

12 months. Policies surrounding ergonomics/ equipment are still not in place they will also need to see how hiring fits in to existing teams or how to create effective teams from scratch when they are all WFH.

My guess is that many companies will be reluctant until the legislation is sorted out and they are protected legally from potential health and safety/ data security issues.

5 months has been a good bit but its not there yet. The only thing that has been proven is the technology.

The Spider · 22-07-2020 05:16PM

Biker79 wrote: »

12 months. Policies surrounding ergonomics/ equipment are still not in place they will also need to see how hiring fits in to existing teams or how to create effective teams from scratch when they are all WFH.

My guess is that many companies will be reluctant until the legislation is sorted out and they are protected legally from potential health and safety/ data security issues.

5 months has been a good bit but its not there yet. The only thing that has been proven is the technology.

Doesn't matter what those companies want or think, fact is the talent will go to companies that provide the best lifestyle, companies that dont offer wfh will be in the minority, they will lose any talent they have, when they try and refill those positions the only people that will take them are people who can't work elsewhere

Mr Meanor · 22-07-2020 05:26PM

According to this article If your in high paid middle management it seems the company didn't miss you!
Companies now saying maybe they don't need them back, ever.

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/this-billionaire-investor-says-white-collar-workers-jobs-are-in-jeopardy

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 06:08PM

The Spider wrote: »

Doesn't matter what those companies want or think, fact is the talent will go to companies that provide the best lifestyle, companies that dont offer wfh will be in the minority, they will lose any talent they have, when they try and refill those positions the only people that will take them are people who can't work elsewhere

I dont think it will be as simple as that.

It may be the case if you are a Developer/ DevOPs / Cloud Service/ Security Engineer/ Helpdesk Analyst.

Otherwise, other roles that have a personal relationship component with an 'in person' value, will be needed back in the Office.

Looks like this is especially true when a business is facing recession.

Jim2007 · 22-07-2020 06:17PM

Biker79 wrote: »

Otherwise, other roles that have a personal relationship component with an 'in person' value, will be needed back in the Office.

Except that there are very few people that want a personal relationship with you at this stage.... Most people would prefer to hear you at the end of the phone these days.

unhappys10 · 22-07-2020 06:24PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Except that there are very few people that want a personal relationship with you at this stage.... Most people would prefer to hear you at the end of the phone these days.

I'd be quite happy to never see my coworkers again, nothing against them but I'm enjoying working from home so if I had to choose between the two it'd be adios

fret_wimp2 · 22-07-2020 06:27PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Except that there are very few people that want a personal relationship with you at this stage.... Most people would prefer to hear you at the end of the phone these days.

Remote working does not negate personal relationship. It takes a bit more effort but is quite easy after a while. In our place things like putting on the camera during a meeting have become normal. It's not expected, but people do for the extra level of communication and to be personable.

There is also usually a little more conversation before or after meetings. People Don't get out much and this really gives people a social outlet and has brought the team closer. I am much more friendly with people in my org that I barely knew before this.

We make an effort by having a teams meeting open for people to drop in at lunch or Thursday afternoons and it's very successful, a bunch of people just shooting the breeze over teams. If 6 months ago someone told me it would be this way I'd have scoffed, said it couldn't work, but here we are.

Its a culture shift for sure and it takes effort & trust initially but very quickly it becomes normal and producticity is as good as if not better.

Again though, this is my situation, YMMV

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 07:22PM

Jim2007 wrote: »

Except that there are very few people that want a personal relationship with you at this stage.... Most people would prefer to hear you at the end of the phone these days.

Higher value jobs revolve around strong personal relationships. Lower value roles dont need as many.

Its a bit brutal but I believe this is how WFH is being shaped. Ive seen evidence of it in my own company and among our clients in recent weeks.

I guess it depends on the business, but there will be general truths shared among all organisations.

stevek93 · 22-07-2020 07:24PM

Obese Child wrote: »

Been working from home for years... On the dole

Shall I just send you my payslip?

Dyr · 22-07-2020 07:54PM

Mr Meanor wrote: »

According to this article If your in high paid middle management it seems the company didn't miss you!
Companies now saying maybe they don't need them back, ever.

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/this-billionaire-investor-says-white-collar-workers-jobs-are-in-jeopardy

Did anyone ever think these "high value roles" were really necessary?

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 08:25PM

Bambi wrote: »

Did anyone ever think these "high value roles" were really necessary?

You don’t ?

22-07-2020 09:45PM

Biker79 wrote: »

Higher value jobs revolve around strong personal relationships. Lower value roles dont need as many.

Its a bit brutal but I believe this is how WFH is being shaped. Ive seen evidence of it in my own company and among our clients in recent weeks.

I guess it depends on the business, but there will be general truths shared among all organisations.

I disagree, in my experience it’s the highly skilled roles particularly in tech etc that are much more open to working from home even before the covid situation. You very rarely see low skilled roles working from home has they are generally hands on etc.

Look at the companies who are making work from home full time for the rest of the year and possibly for good for people who want it, it’s all the big multinational tech firms with some of the highest skilled works and best paid in the country.

There is a bit of an under current of anti-work from time from a few posters on the forum and I really don’t get it, WFH is almost all positives even if it’s not everyday it should be absolutely the norm for a few days a week or even most of the time of the role allows it.

Dyr · 22-07-2020 09:58PM

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

I disagree, in my experience it’s the highly skilled roles particularly in tech etc that are much more open to working from home even before the covid situation. You very rarely see low skilled roles working from home has they are generally hands on etc.

Look at the companies who are making work from town full time for the rest of the year and possibly for good for people who want it, it’s all the big multinational tech firms with some of the highest skilled works and best paid in the country.

There is a bit of an under current of anti-work from time from a few posters on the forum and I really don’t get it, WFH is almost all positives even if it’s not everyday it should be absolutely the norm for a few days a week or even most of the time of the role allows it.

Alll the senior "high value"

people I've worked with are not in thier positions because of their relationship management skills. They're there because they have the qualifications and the track record.

It's a very old fashioned Albert Reynolds wheeler dealer view that sees things that way. Obviously if your a salesman you'll see personal relationships as a big deal but even that is changing pronto.

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 10:01PM

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

I disagree, in my experience it’s the highly skilled roles particularly in tech etc that are much more open to working from home even before the covid situation. You very rarely see low skilled roles working from home has they are generally hands on etc.

Look at the companies who are making work from town full time for the rest of the year and possibly for good for people who want it, it’s all the big multinational tech firms with some of the highest skilled works and best paid in the country.

There is a bit of an under current of anti-work from time from a few posters on the forum and I really don’t get it, WFH is almost all positives even if it’s not everyday it should be absolutely the norm for a few days a week or even most of the time of the role allows it.

A lot of the people in tech companies in Ireland are in sales or support services , the engineers etc are all on the west coast.

Sales jobs can be done from home but I’d disagree they are highly skilled.

LinkedIn are laying off a good few heads now as well

maherhonda · 22-07-2020 10:03PM

Cyrus wrote: »

A lot of the people in tech companies in Ireland are in sales or support services , the engineers etc are all on the west coast.

Sales jobs can be done from home but I’d disagree they are highly skilled.

LinkedIn are laying off a good few heads now as well

What is this nonsense? Do you understand how IT works and the different area's of it.

Currently 760 IT jobs in Dublin on Irishjobs. Thats not including the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc.

Could add on another 600 for those.

22-07-2020 10:13PM

Cyrus wrote: »

A lot of the people in tech companies in Ireland are in sales or support services , the engineers etc are all on the west coast.

Sales jobs can be done from home but I’d disagree they are highly skilled.

LinkedIn are laying off a good few heads now as well

The average Facebook salary in Ireland is 154k, they aren’t mostly sales and support.

Large numbers are developers, project and program managers etc all which are highly skilled, highly paid and have always been work from home regularly even before covid.

Not allowing working from home for desk based jobs is old fashioned backward thinking.

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 10:17PM

maherhonda wrote: »

What is this nonsense? Do you understand how IT works and the different area's of it.

Currently 760 IT jobs in Dublin on Irishjobs. Thats not including the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc.

Could add on another 600 for those.

Yes I worked in one of the companies mentioned and it was sales , finance and support services.

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 10:22PM

maherhonda wrote: »

What is this nonsense? Do you understand how IT works and the different area's of it.

Currently 760 IT jobs in Dublin on Irishjobs. Thats not including the likes of Google, Facebook, Amazon etc.

Could add on another 600 for those.

Despite their titles, few of these will be Engineering roles. They are allmost all Tech support roles ( in some shape or form ) because that is the function MNC service companies in Ireland have within the EMEA region.

Ireland is effectively a middleman for tech services, as far as these companies go. Systems are designed in the States and manitained here In Ireland/ EMEA. There is not much prestige to be found, despite what some may allude to. Like I mentioned earrlier in this thread, between 50 and 70 % of the staff in these organisations are outsourced workers with service companies. The rest are directly employed in Sales/ Marketing/ Management - higher value roles.

Sales and Marketing jobs are much more valuable in bottom dollar terms than Tech jobs. It pains techies to hear that but its the truth. Tech jobs are on a downward trajectory of value-add. Why else would the skills be given away for free on code bootcamps? To fill the market with cheaper workers, thats why. You can still earn fairly good money as a tech, but only if you can combine IT skills with client facing ones ( which is effectively sales ).

* braces for bruised ego backlash *

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 10:23PM

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

The average Facebook salary in Ireland is 154k, they aren’t mostly sales and support.

Large numbers are developers, project and program managers etc all which are highly skilled, highly paid and have always been work from home regularly even before covid.

Not allowing working from home for desk based jobs is old fashioned backward thinking.

I know a few people in Facebook who have done well, large part of their remuneration was in the stock based comp they got , they were all in sales or sales management .

If you think any of the brains of these companies are located anywhere but in the west coast you are codding yourself .

maherhonda · 22-07-2020 10:24PM

Cyrus wrote: »

Yes I worked in one of the companies mentioned and it was sales , finance and support services.

Do you work in IT as you probably don't have a clue what was actually involved in these services otherwise.

Network engineers, Storage engineers, Programmers, Cloud engineers, Data center engineers etc, Design engineers, Linux Engineers, Windows Engineers, Messaging engineers, Security, Pen testing.

The actual cheek to think these are not high skilled jobs.

Cyrus · 22-07-2020 10:25PM

maherhonda wrote: »

Do you work in IT as you probably don't have a clue what was actually involved in these services otherwise.

Absolutely not, but I know where these companies locate their top engineering talent , and it’s not Ireland .

But feel free to educate me.

And while you are getting down off your high horse , where did I say any of those jobs aren’t skilled ?

Biker79 · 22-07-2020 10:29PM

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

The average Facebook salary in Ireland is 154k, they aren’t mostly sales and support.

Large numbers are developers, project and program managers etc all which are highly skilled, highly paid and have always been work from home regularly even before covid.

Not allowing working from home for desk based jobs is old fashioned backward thinking.

Thats cooking the books. The average salary of people directly employed by facebook which is actually about 30% of total staff. The rest are outsourced workers. That figure will be further distorted by very high earners in management...but they are a very small percentage of the overall staff.

Cooking the numbers makes Facebook look like a very desirable place to work, clearly. But the reaility is different for the majority of people who work there.

Dyr · 22-07-2020 10:59PM

maherhonda wrote: »

Do you work in IT as you probably don't have a clue what was actually involved in these services otherwise.

Network engineers, Storage engineers, Programmers, Cloud engineers, Data center engineers etc, Design engineers, Linux Engineers, Windows Engineers, Messaging engineers, Security, Pen testing.

The actual cheek to think these are not high skilled jobs.

Ah no, all them roles are just tech support

Theres a level of spoofing that tends to be unique to sales roles, I guessed right the first time

Divisadero · 22-07-2020 11:05PM

maherhonda wrote: »

The actual cheek to think these are not high skilled jobs.

Awful cheek. Simply dreadful.

If Work From Home becomes a thing...

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