If Work From Home becomes a thing...

beauf

Biker79 wrote: »

Can you explain why this is dinosaur thinking? Afterall, its the thinking of someone who runs a business and keeps people in jobs. ...

The why was in the post he quoted.

beauf

Wompa1 wrote: »

....
COVID expedited everything. It's been exhausting to keep up with and try to support.

I think most IT departments have been the busiest they've ever been.

Even where sales dried up, lots of companies massively ramped up R&D and new products, projects pipeline's that could generate income during the new reality during the lock down. Future products, were all accelerated.

Wompa1

beauf wrote: »

With every industry there is a pyramid of high paid and low paid also high skill sets and low skill sets. The vast majority of people in most industries will be the lower paid. That's why its a pyramid. Same with skill sets.

While the big multi-nationals have a lot of support jobs. A certain % of these are highly technical. Tier 3 and above. Its misleading to compare them with lower tech support jobs. They will take years of experience and training to acquire those skill sets. They get paid well because relatively few people will acquire these deep skill sets and experience.

Also the IT industry in Ireland is filled with lots of native development companies and a lot of their R&D is done here. Even when its outsourced it will be run operationally from the parent company in Ireland.

Obviously there are hotspots in the west coast of the US etc. But its a mistake to think this is the only place where R&D is done.

It's definitely not the only place R&D is done and some of it is done in Ireland specifically to avail of Irish laws on Intellectual Property. I have worked for tiny startups who were sizing up having an entity in Ireland just to avail of that.

It is true that in most large organizations, they have more lower paid\tiered support staff than high skilled. In a support sense the higher tier SHOULD just handle escalations which shouldn't be all that frequent in a well run place.

In my last IT job in Ireland, I would been considered highly skilled but on pretty poor pay. I also spent a lot of my time working with top tier engineers and architects overseas. Even if a lot of the heavy lifting was being completed by us. The higher pay and superior titles were held by those in the US, Germany, Hong Kong etc.

Still, I have a few friends who worked similar roles to me and then went out and started their own companies and did very well for themselves. Ireland needs more of that anyway. Less reliance on the likes of Facebook and more investment in creating our own Facebooks or Googles.

Strumms

If it became an absolute necessity....I’ve a rather big old garage out the back that is just used for storage. I’d do what I’ve been threatening to do for years and get it insulated, was going to set up a pool table that could be long term but set it up with office furniture and pc the company would send... that way when 5pm hits , I’m off and away, away off the clock, back in the house, uncontactable, done.

Otherwise if you are truly working ‘in’ your home you are a target for the... “ohhh just check your email for a sec”... brigade, halfway during the second half of an entertaining match or say family dinner...

hots

Strumms wrote: »

If it became an absolute necessity....I’ve a rather big old garage out the back that is just used for storage. I’d do what I’ve been threatening to do for years and get it insulated, was going to set up a pool table that could be long term but set it up with office furniture and pc the company would send... that way when 5pm hits , I’m off and away, away off the clock, back in the house, uncontactable, done.

Otherwise if you are truly working ‘in’ your home you are a target for the... “ohhh just check your email for a sec”... brigade, halfway during the second half of an entertaining match or say family dinner...

I've no issue with clocking off and picking up any of those requests the next day, just need to set your boundaries clear with others. I can see the benefit psychologically though of having the office away from the living space, keeps it more separate in the head.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Otherwise if you are truly working ‘in’ your home you are a target for the... “ohhh just check your email for a sec”... brigade, halfway during the second half of an entertaining match or say family dinner...

Most people do that on their phone anyway (check emails I mean), WFH overall only improves work life balance for me personally. Even when I'm in the office I would still check emails in the evening and if I'm working late at home then I would have been working late in the office or alternatively I would have come home from the office, had dinner and then started working WFH for the evening. You also have the extra time you would be commuting that you can work if you wish too which can help to ease the need for working later at other times etc.

Biker79

Biker79 wrote: »

Can you explain why this is dinosaur thinking? Afterall, its the thinking of someone who runs a business and keeps people in jobs.

Why would your opinion be better than theirs. Have you also successfully ran a company?

He explained why its dinosaur thinking in his post. While working from home, productivity went up(it's the same in my own place), his own well being improved.

Management may not care about his well being or the money he has saved, but they should care that more work was accomplished for the same or less money spent.

fret_wimp2

Deleted User wrote: »

He explained why its dinosaur thinking in his post. While working from home, productivity went up(it's the same in my own place), his own well being improved.

Management may not care about his well being or the money he has saved, but they should care that more work was accomplished for the same or less money spent.

Some managers just like bums on seats in the office, they feel if they can see employees, they can make sure they work.

As i see it, the people who are productive from home are the people who were always productive. The people who are slacking off now always did, its just more visible.

For that cohort the question is not about having them in the office to ensure productivity, its would you rather they slack off at home or have them slack off in the office.

Cyrus

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Some managers just like bums on seats in the office, they feel if they can see employees, they can make sure they work.

As i see it, the people who are productive from home are the people who were always productive. The people who are slacking off now always did, its just more visible.

For that cohort the question is not about having them in the office to ensure productivity, its would you rather they slack off at home or have them slack off in the office.

its easier to make them work in an office environment but generally my preference is just to get rid of them, easier all round.

fret_wimp2

Cyrus wrote: »

its easier to make them work in an office environment but generally my preference is just to get rid of them, easier all round.

Thats not generally the Irish way unfortunately.

tony1980

It is kinda down to someone's personality too! I don't know about everyone here but I actually really like working even if it's something unexpected in the evening. It's my project so I take a personal responsibility to it even outside of work hours and don't expect anything in return like time off etc. I want it to be done right so if I have to do hours in the evening sometimes, so be it! Great thing about my Company is they are very flexible when I need something, like unexpected time-off so the comment earlier about Dinosaur thinking is correct I think! Companies need to be flexible and have trust in employees and the ones they can't trust will be quickly found out and flushed out anyway! All depends on the Industry too I guess!

Sunny Disposition

There is a lot of dinosaur thinking for sure. Suppose there always has been in the world of work.
A lot of managers treat their employees like schoolboys were treated many years ago, think they’re always trying to do as little as possible.
In my experience, and I employed some v poor foremen, if you treat people like that it becomes self fulfilling. You need to motivate people positively to get the best out of them and to keep the best people.

Cyrus

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Thats not generally the Irish way unfortunately.

no i agree, it is something we have cultivated as best we can within the applicable laws etc and it works well,

we tend to run small, lean teams so someone not pulling their weight directly impacts everyone else.

Biker79

beauf wrote: »

The why was in the post he quoted.

Personally, I'm glad that dinosaurs are in charge. Rather than tech support people.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it pans out. The WFH benefits are clear but perhaps the time is not yet right to pivot en masse to a new way of working.

Strumms

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

Most people do that on their phone anyway (check emails I mean), WFH overall only improves work life balance for me personally. Even when I'm in the office I would still check emails in the evening and if I'm working late at home then I would have been working late in the office or alternatively I would have come home from the office, had dinner and then started working WFH for the evening. You also have the extra time you would be commuting that you can work if you wish too which can help to ease the need for working later at other times etc.

Most don’t, the majority of people I know don’t have access. Not one of my colleagues or I checked work email at home. I was the only line employee in my department with a company laptop but when the calls DID start coming “can you just look at abc email for a sec” that laptop which I used to bring home for safe keeping as the lock on my drawer was broken in work and they wouldn’t replace it.. was put in there anyway, tough if it gets nicked.

Strumms

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

There is a lot of dinosaur thinking for sure. Suppose there always has been in the world of work.
A lot of managers treat their employees like schoolboys were treated many years ago, think they’re always trying to do as little as possible.
In my experience, and I employed some v poor foremen, if you treat people like that it becomes self fulfilling. You need to motivate people positively to get the best out of them and to keep the best people.

100%

Did you ever hear the old saying... “praise the fool and drive them harder”

Always be wary of management spinning you positively or positivity with words.. actions are what counts... the talked about pay rise ? WHERE ? The replacement office chair ? WHERE ? The extra holiday allowance to correspond with you length of service, WHERE ?

Managers need to be doing not promising.

Cyrus

Strumms wrote: »

100%

Did you ever hear the old saying... “praise the fool and drive them harder”

Always be wary of management spinning you positively or positivity with words.. actions are what counts... the talked about pay rise ? WHERE ? The replacement office chair ? WHERE ? The extra holiday allowance to correspond with you length of service, WHERE ?

Managers need to be doing not promising.

people need to take responsibility for themselves, not happy with what you are getting paid, go get it somewhere else, same for any other benefits. Dont like conditions and cant convince your manager / company to change, go somewhere that will value you higher.

tommyombomb

Cyrus wrote: »

people need to take responsibility for themselves, not happy with what you are getting paid, go get it somewhere else, same for any other benefits. Dont like conditions and cant convince your manager / company to change, go somewhere that will value you higher.

This shocked me how so many people still have rarely moved companies. Max i have been at a place is 3.5yrs and that was first job. If cant move up, there is always roles in other companies

Cyrus

tommyombomb wrote: »

This shocked me how so many people still have rarely moved companies. Max i have been at a place is 3.5yrs and that was first job. If cant move up, there is always roles in other companies

yet they will sit there all day and moan about pay, conditions etc.

beauf

Wompa1 wrote: »

It's definitely not the only place R&D is done and some of it is done in Ireland specifically to avail of Irish laws on Intellectual Property. I have worked for tiny startups who were sizing up having an entity in Ireland just to avail of that.

It is true that in most large organizations, they have more lower paid\tiered support staff than high skilled. In a support sense the higher tier SHOULD just handle escalations which shouldn't be all that frequent in a well run place.

In my last IT job in Ireland, I would been considered highly skilled but on pretty poor pay. I also spent a lot of my time working with top tier engineers and architects overseas. Even if a lot of the heavy lifting was being completed by us. The higher pay and superior titles were held by those in the US, Germany, Hong Kong etc.

Still, I have a few friends who worked similar roles to me and then went out and started their own companies and did very well for themselves. Ireland needs more of that anyway. Less reliance on the likes of Facebook and more investment in creating our own Facebooks or Googles.

People are obsessed with FaceAche or Ogling. Theres more to IT than working in these places.

Strumms

Cyrus wrote: »

yet they will sit there all day and moan about pay, conditions etc.

If companies treated people with fairness and paid them a fair and proportionate wage for the time, responsibilities and work expected of them, there simply are very few complainers.... most people all they are after is a fair days pay, for a fair days work and to be treated fairly in the process.

Problems start in my experience when you have careerist middle managers try at every and all cost to screw line employees out of money, health and satisfaction in their jobs, all so they can present a nice spreadsheet to document savings at no cost to the customer.

A company I worked for did the following in addition to pay freezes and bonus withdrawals ...

Removed all vending machines so you couldn’t get a snack or bottle of water. There was no shop in walking distance.

Wanted employees to use private cars to go to the company sub stores .5 kms away for printer paper etc.

Cyrus

Strumms wrote: »

If companies treated people with fairness and paid them a fair and proportionate wage for the time and work expected of them, there simply are very few complainers.... most people all they are after is a fair days pay, for a fair days work and to be treated fairly in the process.

Problems start in my experience when you have careerist middle managers try at every and all cost to screw line employees out of money, health and satisfaction in their jobs, all so they can present a nice spreadsheet to document savings at no cost to the customer.

A company I worked for did the following in addition to pay freezes and bonus withdrawals ...

Removed all vending machines so you couldn’t get a snack or bottle of water. There was no shop in walking distance.

Wanted employees to use private cars to go to the company sub stores .5 kms away for printer paper etc.

A careerist middle manager? im not sure thats a thing, you cant just jump into middle management, everyone starts somewhere.

Anyway you know what i would do if that happened to me?

i'd leave.

beauf

Cyrus wrote: »

A careerist middle manager? im not sure thats a thing, you cant just jump into middle management, everyone starts somewhere.

Anyway you know what i would do if that happened to me?

i'd leave.

Subjective terms. But you start at "early careerist"...

manager, supervisor and project manager." The criteria of an early-career professional can vary. One text described an early careerists as having normally "2 years of project management experience". Further alluding to five years being the threshold as an early career professional, the most recent study released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics cites individuals have "less than 5 years". of experience in a related occupation before obtaining a position in the mid-career realm.

You get people parachuted into all levels of management. Sometimes with no industry experience or acumen.

tommyombomb

tommyombomb wrote: »

This shocked me how so many people still have rarely moved companies. Max i have been at a place is 3.5yrs and that was first job. If cant move up, there is always roles in other companies

Max for me was about 3 years. I tend to get bored and want a new challenge or want better benefits. It's worked well for me so far.

Strumms

Cyrus wrote: »

A careerist middle manager? im not sure thats a thing, you cant just jump into middle management, everyone starts somewhere.

Anyway you know what i would do if that happened to me?

i'd leave.

Ohh, it’s a thing alright.

You’d leave ? Then you’d have an employee merry go round... people don’t want to leave, they want to be secure in jobs, happy in jobs, treated fairly, paid fairly... it’s not rocket science.

Strumms

Strumms wrote: »

Most don’t, the majority of people I know don’t have access. Not one of my colleagues or I checked work email at home. I was the only line employee in my department with a company laptop but when the calls DID start coming “can you just look at abc email for a sec” that laptop which I used to bring home for safe keeping as the lock on my drawer was broken in work and they wouldn’t replace it.. was put in there anyway, tough if it gets nicked.

I can check my work emails from any device I want, the account is added to my phone's email app along side my person email so anytime I check the app I get both my personal and work email and I would be checking thought the evening or at weekends to check for personal mail anyway so I also see my work mails.

It would be the absolute norm in my area of work to check emails on your phone, do work on your laptop at home etc. I did the very same in my previous job, had emails, file access etc from where ever I want on what ever device I want.

Strumms

Jaziel Unkempt Photographer wrote: »

I can check my work emails from any device I want, the account is added to my phone's email app along side my person email so anytime I check the app I get both my personal and work email and I would be checking thought the evening or at weekends to check for personal mail anyway so I also see my work mails.

It would be the absolute norm in my area of work to check emails on your phone, do work on your laptop at home etc. I did the very same in my previous job, had emails, file access etc from where ever I want on what ever device I want.

If that’s a scenario that’s put in front of you from you taking the job as it’s advertised and so on and you are happy to work like that, great.

In jobs where it’s a case of goalposts being moved to enable this as the ‘new norm’.. not great.

Get this covid vaccine and hopefully it cannot be a new norm.

beauf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Max for me was about 3 years. I tend to get bored and want a new challenge or want better benefits. It's worked well for me so far.

Sometimes there are things like share options maturing or opportunities that may open up within a company that make it advantageous to stay longer. Sometimes you have a bond that you have to pay to be released from if you've received training and leave early.

There's also situations where you can't afford to move and not have it work out. Basically you need the steady income and can't risk it being interrupted.

Lots of reasons you might need or want to stay longer. Especially as you get older.

tommyombomb

tommyombomb wrote: »

This shocked me how so many people still have rarely moved companies. Max i have been at a place is 3.5yrs and that was first job. If cant move up, there is always roles in other companies

Company jumping wouldn't appeal to me to be honest, when I get settled in a place I find it very hard to move on especially if its fairly secure and more importantly is in the location where I want to live as I have no interested in moving around the place for work, I want to live in my home area and so that dictates the opportunities to move job. It wouldn't really work in my line of work either as it takes a long time to get fully on top of the work, if ever so after a few years in a company you would only be really getting properly established and really up to speed on everything. Move job and you would be back trying to get on top of things in the new place which would wear you down.

Strumms wrote: »

If that’s a scenario that’s put in front of you from you taking the job as it’s advertised and so on and you are happy to work like that, great.

.

I would have 100% expected it as its all about give and take, I'm happy to do this and in return I've always had lots of flexibility.

Cyrus

Strumms wrote: »

Ohh, it’s a thing alright.

You’d leave ? Then you’d have an employee merry go round... people don’t want to leave, they want to be secure in jobs, happy in jobs, treated fairly, paid fairly... it’s not rocket science.

So there are graduate middle managers? What industry is this ?

Employee merry go round is the employers issue they might change things if enough people vote with their feet !