Anyone up for a Pro20 ??

pjdarcy · 17-07-2020 9:44am #1

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/300059991/new-zealand-rugby-says-goodbye-to-south-africa-in-historic-super-rugby-move?cid=app-iPhone

Cookiemunster · 17-07-2020 10:02am

Pro18. It's been doing the rounds for the last few weeks that this was going to happen and that Cheetahs and Kings would be dumped for the 4 Super Rugby teams.

thomond2006 · 17-07-2020 10:09am

The Top14 announced their 2020-21 fixtures yesterday. Time is running out for Celtic Rugby to get this sorted.

A Pro18 would be unwieldy enough. 20 teams would be insanity. It would be a tough one for the Cheetahs who have been a decent addition. Under no circumstances should the Kings be allowed to remain. There's no fanbase, the team is awful on the field and the organisation is a disaster off the field.

thomond2006 · 17-07-2020 11:12am

On the Pacific side, you could see a Super 10s start up quickly with a revival of the Sunwolves re-joining after a while. Japan is too big a potential market to ignore. Current politicial issues aside, perhaps Hong Kong could be a base for a side also.

The Oz Rugby CEO has said they don't have the depth to run five teams so that leaves 5 NZ, 4 Aus and 1 PI side.

Clegg · 17-07-2020 11:19am

Stormers, Lions, Munster, Sharks, Bulls.

Very strong South African contingent joining up.

Legion2008 · 17-07-2020 11:20am

It'll all come down to the money .... and TV rights play a huge part in that. Is the market for NZ, Aus and PI large enough to support the teams?

SA and Japan would have a much larger TV rights and bring a lot of money to the table.

thomond2006 · 17-07-2020 11:24am

SA bring a lot of money but the time difference is a huge block to viewership progress. Casual fans will be willing to watch big games like Springboks/All Blacks at all hours but watching Sharks vs Rebels week to week isn't a runner. In a Pacific tournament idea, the maximum difference would be 4 hours between say Hong Kong and Auckland.

bilston · 17-07-2020 7:03pm

Probably inevitable that the big SA teams will be joining the artist formerly known as the Celtic League (actually it was Welsh-Scottish League once upon a time).

IMO the real question is when?

CatFromHue · 17-07-2020 8:11pm

One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.

Digifriendly · 19-07-2020 10:13am

CatFromHue wrote: »

One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.

By your frst comment do you mean the possibility of 17 home and 17 away games in new Pro 18 competition? Surely thats not possible to fit into rugby calendar.

MJohnston · 19-07-2020 10:15am

Digifriendly wrote: »

By your frst comment do you mean the possibility of 17 home and 17 away games in new Pro 18 competition? Surely thats not possible to fit into rugby calendar.

Home *or* away he said. Six Nations style.

The Lost Sheep · 19-07-2020 10:46am

CatFromHue wrote: »

One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.

dont think the format of pro14 should be avoided. You need to get as many of the derbies played home and away for financial reasons, about only games where you have decent away support etc.
And two pools where you dont play anyone from other pool should also be avoided

CatFromHue · 19-07-2020 1:22pm

Yeah the first option is where you play everyone else in the league, but only once.

The second is where you play half the league, but play them twice.

I found the Pro14 format to be uneven. Last season Glasgow played Leinster once and Edinburgh 3 times whereas Munster and Connacht played Leinster twice and Edinburgh once. Ideally at the end of the season the table shouldn't lie, but it does in the Pro14 as the second and third placed teams in one of the conferences had a much harder fixture list (they played the top 2 teams in the other conference twice but Glasgow only played them once) than the team that finished first.

thomond2006 · 19-07-2020 1:28pm

The Cheetahs get 14/15 points a year playing the Kings three times.

Former Former · 19-07-2020 5:36pm

Ditch South Africa, go back to the Pro12. Done.

Buer · 19-07-2020 7:13pm

Former Former wrote: »

Ditch South Africa, go back to the Pro12. Done.

I'd be completely happy with that. The exotic option is always attractive and, in reality, they're not going to turn down the potential money on the table.....

But the South African involvement thus far has been far from exciting. The Kings should be playing Currie Cup and arguably not even Premier. The Cheetahs are completely hit and miss. They're difficult to beat in SA due to the length of the journey, the weak teams sent and the altitude. On the flipside, they're useless away from home and their players appear to just see it as a shop window to get a move out of SA.

I'd like to think the other teams would add a lot more steel to the competition but it's somewhat nuts to have a large portion of teams in a competition play their games 9,000km away given the competition was originally supposed to be a domestic style tournament between 3 closely located areas.

Neil3030 · 19-07-2020 7:50pm

If the league saw fit to absorb the cost and hassle of travel to SA to include one awful and one ok-ish team, I can imagine they'll readily accept 4 teams who could all potentially win the league.

hahashake · 19-07-2020 8:01pm

The Bok team that won the RWC was majority SA based, however those same players are now largely overseas. Yes, they still have some very strong sides but I anticipate combining with a European League would only exacerbate the exodus of players, as the players would be in the shop window for European clubs/provinces even more so while still being in view of Springbok selectors. What's more there are even more options with the emergence of Japan. So I wouldn't count on the 4 sides remaining competitive. Especially if they start losing more highschool aged players...

thomond2006 · 19-07-2020 8:04pm

I wonder how viable it is, as a backup plan, for SA to ditch overseas tournaments and make the Currie Cup their main club competition. The current CC has declined in recent years due to the lack of Springbok involvement but it's still got name recognition and history.

The Lost Sheep · 19-07-2020 8:12pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yeah the first option is where you play everyone else in the league, but only once.

The second is where you play half the league, but play them twice.

I found the Pro14 format to be uneven. Last season Glasgow played Leinster once and Edinburgh 3 times whereas Munster and Connacht played Leinster twice and Edinburgh once. Ideally at the end of the season the table shouldn't lie, but it does in the Pro14 as the second and third placed teams in one of the conferences had a much harder fixture list (they played the top 2 teams in the other conference twice but Glasgow only played them once) than the team that finished first.

it will always be uneven in some regard unless you do what French do with 14 teams and everyone plays everyone home and away and we all know that isnt going to happen.

hahashake wrote: »

The Bok team that won the RWC was majority SA based, however those same players are now largely overseas. Yes, they still have some very strong sides but I anticipate combining with a European League would only exacerbate the exodus of players, as the players would be in the shop window for European clubs/provinces even more so while still being in view of Springbok selectors. What's more there are even more options with the emergence of Japan. So I wouldn't count on the 4 sides remaining competitive. Especially if they start losing more highschool aged players...

if south African teams were all playing in Europe. And with matches all at decent times for TV, income could be better and help keep players at home.

CatFromHue · 19-07-2020 8:29pm

I know why they did it and it's the least worst option. If you can avoid it though that's better.

A Pro20 with home or away means you get 19 regular season games which is what you want.
A Pro20 with two pools of 10 means where they play each other home and away in their pool gives you 18 regular season games which is also in and around what you want.

Neil3030 · 19-07-2020 8:43pm

Wait, where is the 18 or 20 coming from?

2 out, 4 in, no?

Pro16?

Neil3030 · 19-07-2020 8:48pm

Two pools of 8 with generous qualification to the playoffs makes a lot of sense to me.

Everyone in your pool home and away (14 games). No nonsense with cross-pool matches or keeping he derbies.

Then let the top 4 from each pool into an 8 team QF.

Keeps the workload comparatively light, vis other European leagues. Plenty of incentive to put a strong team out in most fixtures.

The Lost Sheep · 19-07-2020 9:35pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Two pools of 8 with generous qualification to the playoffs makes a lot of sense to me.

Everyone in your pool home and away (14 games). No nonsense with cross-pool matches or keeping he derbies.

Then let the top 4 from each pool into an 8 team QF.

Keeps the workload comparatively light, vis other European leagues. Plenty of incentive to put a strong team out in most fixtures.

its not nonsense to keep as many of the games that actually get crowds. Especially when gate revenue and match day revenue is so vital for many sides
Only 14 games means much smaller squads so what do you do with all the other pros in provincial squads?

Neil3030 · 19-07-2020 9:39pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

its not nonsense to keep as many of the games that actually get crowds. Especially when gate revenue and match day revenue is so vital for many sides
Only 14 games means much smaller squads so what do you do with all the other pros in provincial squads?

Well if it ain't broke don't fix it; I just presumed they'd continue going to Munster?

thomond2006 · 19-07-2020 9:45pm

I think if we want to keep all the interpros then put those teams in the same conference. That causes an issue with Euro qualification but the current system is imbalanced.

Neil3030 · 19-07-2020 9:53pm

There's no way to evenly optimise:

preservation of interpros / derbies
a fair pool structure
a tournament structure that doesn't yield migraines

Build a simple, understandable tournament that's attractive to TV viewers; rivalries and live ticket sales will naturally follow.

Build a tournament around preserving current rivalries and ticket sales is a step backwards, imo.

The Lost Sheep · 19-07-2020 10:00pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well if it ain't broke don't fix it; I just presumed they'd continue going to Munster?

petty. Why completely cut the number of pros playing the sport. Some could go abroad but most wouldnt. That isnt good for the game

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think if we want to keep all the interpros then put those teams in the same conference. That causes an issue with Euro qualification but the current system is imbalanced.

the current system would be better than this. There will always be an imbalance with any format.

Neil3030 wrote: »

There's no way to evenly optimise:

preservation of interpros / derbies
a fair pool structure
a tournament structure that doesn't yield migraines

Build a simple, understandable tournament that's attractive to TV viewers; rivalries and live ticket sales will naturally follow.

Build a tournament around preserving current rivalries and ticket sales is a step backwards, imo.

live ticket sales wont follow as tou are primarily looking at just home fans and that wont work for a lot of games. Losing several of the derbies would be crazy.

thomond2006 · 19-07-2020 10:06pm

Yes any conference format comes with its deficiencies.

Neil3030 · 19-07-2020 10:13pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

petty. Why completely cut the number of pros playing the sport. Some could go abroad but most wouldnt. That isnt good for the game

You're stating a fairly qualified prediction as fact here. Why will there be less professional rugby players if the standard of the Pro14/16 increases with fewer games?

live ticket sales wont follow as tou are primarily looking at just home fans and that wont work for a lot of games. Losing several of the derbies would be crazy.

More fans try get tickets for home pool matches in the Heino, than a home Pro14 league match against any province. Derbies add extra spice to a meaningful encounter; the tournament makes the game meaningful.

The Lost Sheep · 19-07-2020 10:48pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

You're stating a fairly qualified prediction as fact here. Why will there be less professional rugby players if the standard of the Pro14/16 increases with fewer games?

More fans try get tickets for home pool matches in the Heino, than a home Pro14 league match against any province. Derbies add extra spice to a meaningful encounter; the tournament makes the game meaningful.

less games, less players needed to be contracted especially if you have the top players playing more.
Connacht get more to interpros than some of their European games.

Neil3030 · 20-07-2020 12:14am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

less games, less players needed to be contracted especially if you have the top players playing more.

Or better opportunity for recovery. There'd still be rotation as players (particularly internationals) can't play every game. So the trade off is fewer games, but against better opposition and alongside better team mates. I trust most players would be OK with this, but even if not, I'm sure the IRFU would rather share IQ assets around the provinces than see them sign journeymen from abroad.

Connacht get more to interpros than some of their European games.

And what about the rest of the provinces? Leinster-Munster in the Aviva around Christmas is usually a coin-toss as to whether you see even one full strength side. I know I'd certainly rather go to a ERC pool match in either Thomond or the RDS.

Besides, this whole experiment only works if the increased TV money rises the floor for everyone. So even if matchday revenues initially dip for some Pro12 teams, unless total revenues increase it won't happen.

Digifriendly · 20-07-2020 7:05am

Interpros are some of the best attended matches so one league with either home or away would be best solution if if S. African sides join.

Dravokivich · 20-07-2020 7:44am

The interpros don't need to be part of the ProXX.

Digifriendly · 20-07-2020 8:45am

Dravokivich wrote: »

The interpros don't need to be part of the ProXX.

I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrength teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.

shootermacg · 20-07-2020 9:51am

Digifriendly wrote: »

I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrenth teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.

Yeah, I like the sound of that. Every team playing every other team would definitely be better than this conference stuff.

pjdarcy · 20-07-2020 9:57am

Neil3030 wrote: »

Wait, where is the 18 or 20 coming from?

2 out, 4 in, no?

Pro16?

Apologies for the confusion, my thread title was a little tongue in cheek

Dravokivich · 20-07-2020 10:23am

Digifriendly wrote: »

I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrenth teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.

I didn't say stop the interpros, I said they don't need the ProXX. The interpros were a competition that was ingested into the Celtic League. It can still be a competition without it.

Squidgy Black · 20-07-2020 11:25am

Dravokivich wrote: »

I didn't say stop the interpros, I said they don't need the ProXX. The interpros were a competition that was ingested into the Celtic League. It can still be a competition without it.

But then they're essentially just warm-up games/friendlies. If they don't count towards ProXX standings or European Cup they're going to be seen as pointless by the provinces and it'll just be B teams getting a run out while they rest the starting 15 for the competitions that actually matter. Even with them counting for standings in the Pro14 at the moment we rarely get two full starting squads playing each other due to rotation in an interpro over Christmas.

thomond2006 · 20-07-2020 11:29am

Replicate the 1872 Cup. Give a seperate trophy to the best province of a mini-table of 4 between all the Pro14 interpros. The winning province could get a cash prize to be used on their academy/domestic game. Of course the shadow squads in many of those interpros ruin this idea...

Dravokivich · 20-07-2020 11:49am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

But then they're essentially just warm-up games/friendlies. If they don't count towards ProXX standings or European Cup they're going to be seen as pointless by the provinces and it'll just be B teams getting a run out while they rest the starting 15 for the competitions that actually matter. Even with them counting for standings in the Pro14 at the moment we rarely get two full starting squads playing each other due to rotation in an interpro over Christmas.

So your issue with it, is you are afraid something that already happens, is likely to happen?

Last time I got a program a few years back, they were still rating InterPros as separate competition, but games taking place within the Celtic League / Pro12 calendar. They aren't dependant on it.

The Lost Sheep · 20-07-2020 1:08pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Or better opportunity for recovery. There'd still be rotation as players (particularly internationals) can't play every game. So the trade off is fewer games, but against better opposition and alongside better team mates. I trust most players would be OK with this, but even if not, I'm sure the IRFU would rather share IQ assets around the provinces than see them sign journeymen from abroad.

better recovery for who exactly? Less games means less game time available which means you dont need as many contracted players which isnt a good thing. We should be providing more games for our pro players not less.

Dravokivich wrote: »

The interpros don't need to be part of the ProXX.

they do. You would just see fewer and fewer top players involved in the games if they're outside of the league

Digifriendly wrote: »

I disagree. Interpros are what generate the biggest crowds whether we like it or not. Even when understrenth teams are being fielded in the Christmas/New Year period there tend to be big attendances at these games. Also Welsh derbies and Scottish derbies also generate the biggest crowds in Wales and Scotland respectively. This is the reality. I accept that present system is unbalanced with the 2 Conferences. So without sounding contradictory I hope, it is probably best if extra SA sides are to join, then have one league with either home or away. At least there would then be 3 interpros for each province although for some only one home interpro.

you should still be able to maintain provincial games home and away within the league format. Reducing the league to just home or away isnt needed. Yes it means everyone will have different fixture lists over a season but its necessary for income and

Dravokivich wrote: »

I didn't say stop the interpros, I said they don't need the ProXX. The interpros were a competition that was ingested into the Celtic League. It can still be a competition without it.

they do need to stay within the league though. The interpros was the competition but if its outside the league you at least want full strength aides in every game which wont be the case and outside the league teams being fielded will only get weaker over time.

bilston · 20-07-2020 1:34pm

Pro 16, two pools of 8, play each other twice, Q/FS, S/Fs and final. That's 17 weeks.

Allow 3 weeks for a separate Inter Pro championship. (20 weeks).

Europe is 9 weeks (29)

Six Nations is 5 weeks (34)

Autumn Internationals are 3 weeks (37)

Summer tour is 3 weeks (40)

12 week off season.

sydthebeat · 20-07-2020 1:41pm

bilston wrote: »

Pro 16, two pools of 8, play each other twice, Q/FS, S/Fs and final. That's 17 weeks.
.

do you split all the separate nations in 2 pools? ie leinster / ulster in one, munster connacht in the other?

Digifriendly · 20-07-2020 3:55pm

bilston wrote: »

Pro 16, two pools of 8, play each other twice, Q/FS, S/Fs and final. That's 17 weeks.

Allow 3 weeks for a separate Inter Pro championship. (20 weeks).

Europe is 9 weeks (29)

Six Nations is 5 weeks (34)

Autumn Internationals are 3 weeks (37)

Summer tour is 3 weeks (40)

12 week off season.

What of Wales/Scotland/italy then? Do their Pro 16 players play less games than Irish? This also divides Interpros into Pro 16 and separate Inter pro competition. Confusing to say the least.

connachta · 20-07-2020 7:59pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.

we've agreed !

connachta · 20-07-2020 8:01pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Two pools of 8 with generous qualification to the playoffs makes a lot of sense to me.

Everyone in your pool home and away (14 games). No nonsense with cross-pool matches or keeping he derbies.

Then let the top 4 from each pool into an 8 team QF.

Keeps the workload comparatively light, vis other European leagues. Plenty of incentive to put a strong team out in most fixtures.

100% Agree

bilston · 20-07-2020 8:28pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

What of Wales/Scotland/italy then? Do their Pro 16 players play less games than Irish? This also divides Interpros into Pro 16 and separate Inter pro competition. Confusing to say the least.

The Inter Pros are a completely separate competition.

I don't care what Scotland, Wales and Italy do. That's a matter for them.

Maybe I haven't explained it very well, but it really isn't confusing at all Digi!!

bilston · 20-07-2020 8:33pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

do you split all the separate nations in 2 pools? ie leinster / ulster in one, munster connacht in the other?

Not sure about that. The conference with the 4 SA sides would be completely imbalanced compared to the other. I'd be inclined to go the way we are at the minute which is why I'd have a separate Inter Pro competition. I accept the LS points about revenue from Inter Pros.

Any system will be imperfect, but I do think getting the SA big 4 involved will strengthen the competition massively.

All that said, my first choice is and always has been for a B+I League (not for political reasons as I was bizarrely accused off a week or two ago!).

Neil3030 · 20-07-2020 10:03pm

My personal preference would be spitting everyone up, similar to the current format.

So if it were two pools of 8, each pool would have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 SA, 1 Scot, 1 Italian.

I'm undecided whether to rebalance them each season off last year's performance, or leave them permanently a la the NFL conferences... If you want to build new rivalries, you go with the latter I'd say.

The Lost Sheep · 20-07-2020 10:18pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

My personal preference would be spitting everyone up, similar to the current format.

So if it were two pools of 8, each pool would have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 SA, 1 Scot, 1 Italian.

I'm undecided whether to rebalance them each season off last year's performance, or leave them permanently a la the NFL conferences... If you want to build new rivalries, you go with the latter I'd say.

new rivalries wont replace income of games against sides from your country

Anyone up for a Pro20 ??

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