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Anyone up for a Pro20 ??

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,429 ✭✭✭✭ Cookiemunster


    Pro18. It's been doing the rounds for the last few weeks that this was going to happen and that Cheetahs and Kings would be dumped for the 4 Super Rugby teams.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    The Top14 announced their 2020-21 fixtures yesterday. Time is running out for Celtic Rugby to get this sorted.

    A Pro18 would be unwieldy enough. 20 teams would be insanity. It would be a tough one for the Cheetahs who have been a decent addition. Under no circumstances should the Kings be allowed to remain. There's no fanbase, the team is awful on the field and the organisation is a disaster off the field.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    On the Pacific side, you could see a Super 10s start up quickly with a revival of the Sunwolves re-joining after a while. Japan is too big a potential market to ignore. Current politicial issues aside, perhaps Hong Kong could be a base for a side also.

    The Oz Rugby CEO has said they don't have the depth to run five teams so that leaves 5 NZ, 4 Aus and 1 PI side.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,212 ✭✭✭✭ Clegg


    Stormers, Lions, Munster, Sharks, Bulls.

    Very strong South African contingent joining up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ Legion2008


    It'll all come down to the money .... and TV rights play a huge part in that. Is the market for NZ, Aus and PI large enough to support the teams?

    SA and Japan would have a much larger TV rights and bring a lot of money to the table.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    SA bring a lot of money but the time difference is a huge block to viewership progress. Casual fans will be willing to watch big games like Springboks/All Blacks at all hours but watching Sharks vs Rebels week to week isn't a runner. In a Pacific tournament idea, the maximum difference would be 4 hours between say Hong Kong and Auckland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭ bilston


    Probably inevitable that the big SA teams will be joining the artist formerly known as the Celtic League (actually it was Welsh-Scottish League once upon a time).

    IMO the real question is when?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,925 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatFromHue


    One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

    Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

    The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,795 ✭✭✭ Digifriendly


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

    Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

    The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.

    By your frst comment do you mean the possibility of 17 home and 17 away games in new Pro 18 competition? Surely thats not possible to fit into rugby calendar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,347 ✭✭✭✭ MJohnston


    By your frst comment do you mean the possibility of 17 home and 17 away games in new Pro 18 competition? Surely thats not possible to fit into rugby calendar.

    Home *or* away he said. Six Nations style.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭ The Lost Sheep


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    One league where you play everyone home or away could be good.

    Two pools were you play everyone home and away could also be good.

    The format of the Pro14 has to be avoided though.
    dont think the format of pro14 should be avoided. You need to get as many of the derbies played home and away for financial reasons, about only games where you have decent away support etc.
    And two pools where you dont play anyone from other pool should also be avoided


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,925 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatFromHue


    Yeah the first option is where you play everyone else in the league, but only once.

    The second is where you play half the league, but play them twice.

    I found the Pro14 format to be uneven. Last season Glasgow played Leinster once and Edinburgh 3 times whereas Munster and Connacht played Leinster twice and Edinburgh once. Ideally at the end of the season the table shouldn't lie, but it does in the Pro14 as the second and third placed teams in one of the conferences had a much harder fixture list (they played the top 2 teams in the other conference twice but Glasgow only played them once) than the team that finished first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    The Cheetahs get 14/15 points a year playing the Kings three times.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 Former Former


    Ditch South Africa, go back to the Pro12. Done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭ Buer


    Ditch South Africa, go back to the Pro12. Done.

    I'd be completely happy with that. The exotic option is always attractive and, in reality, they're not going to turn down the potential money on the table.....

    But the South African involvement thus far has been far from exciting. The Kings should be playing Currie Cup and arguably not even Premier. The Cheetahs are completely hit and miss. They're difficult to beat in SA due to the length of the journey, the weak teams sent and the altitude. On the flipside, they're useless away from home and their players appear to just see it as a shop window to get a move out of SA.

    I'd like to think the other teams would add a lot more steel to the competition but it's somewhat nuts to have a large portion of teams in a competition play their games 9,000km away given the competition was originally supposed to be a domestic style tournament between 3 closely located areas.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    If the league saw fit to absorb the cost and hassle of travel to SA to include one awful and one ok-ish team, I can imagine they'll readily accept 4 teams who could all potentially win the league.


  • Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭ hahashake


    The Bok team that won the RWC was majority SA based, however those same players are now largely overseas. Yes, they still have some very strong sides but I anticipate combining with a European League would only exacerbate the exodus of players, as the players would be in the shop window for European clubs/provinces even more so while still being in view of Springbok selectors. What's more there are even more options with the emergence of Japan. So I wouldn't count on the 4 sides remaining competitive. Especially if they start losing more highschool aged players...


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    I wonder how viable it is, as a backup plan, for SA to ditch overseas tournaments and make the Currie Cup their main club competition. The current CC has declined in recent years due to the lack of Springbok involvement but it's still got name recognition and history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭ The Lost Sheep


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Yeah the first option is where you play everyone else in the league, but only once.

    The second is where you play half the league, but play them twice.

    I found the Pro14 format to be uneven. Last season Glasgow played Leinster once and Edinburgh 3 times whereas Munster and Connacht played Leinster twice and Edinburgh once. Ideally at the end of the season the table shouldn't lie, but it does in the Pro14 as the second and third placed teams in one of the conferences had a much harder fixture list (they played the top 2 teams in the other conference twice but Glasgow only played them once) than the team that finished first.
    it will always be uneven in some regard unless you do what French do with 14 teams and everyone plays everyone home and away and we all know that isnt going to happen.
    hahashake wrote: »
    The Bok team that won the RWC was majority SA based, however those same players are now largely overseas. Yes, they still have some very strong sides but I anticipate combining with a European League would only exacerbate the exodus of players, as the players would be in the shop window for European clubs/provinces even more so while still being in view of Springbok selectors. What's more there are even more options with the emergence of Japan. So I wouldn't count on the 4 sides remaining competitive. Especially if they start losing more highschool aged players...
    if south African teams were all playing in Europe. And with matches all at decent times for TV, income could be better and help keep players at home.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,925 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatFromHue


    I know why they did it and it's the least worst option. If you can avoid it though that's better.

    A Pro20 with home or away means you get 19 regular season games which is what you want.
    A Pro20 with two pools of 10 means where they play each other home and away in their pool gives you 18 regular season games which is also in and around what you want.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    Wait, where is the 18 or 20 coming from?

    2 out, 4 in, no?

    Pro16?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    Two pools of 8 with generous qualification to the playoffs makes a lot of sense to me.

    Everyone in your pool home and away (14 games). No nonsense with cross-pool matches or keeping he derbies.

    Then let the top 4 from each pool into an 8 team QF.

    Keeps the workload comparatively light, vis other European leagues. Plenty of incentive to put a strong team out in most fixtures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭ The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Two pools of 8 with generous qualification to the playoffs makes a lot of sense to me.

    Everyone in your pool home and away (14 games). No nonsense with cross-pool matches or keeping he derbies.

    Then let the top 4 from each pool into an 8 team QF.

    Keeps the workload comparatively light, vis other European leagues. Plenty of incentive to put a strong team out in most fixtures.
    its not nonsense to keep as many of the games that actually get crowds. Especially when gate revenue and match day revenue is so vital for many sides
    Only 14 games means much smaller squads so what do you do with all the other pros in provincial squads?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    its not nonsense to keep as many of the games that actually get crowds. Especially when gate revenue and match day revenue is so vital for many sides
    Only 14 games means much smaller squads so what do you do with all the other pros in provincial squads?

    Well if it ain't broke don't fix it; I just presumed they'd continue going to Munster?


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    I think if we want to keep all the interpros then put those teams in the same conference. That causes an issue with Euro qualification but the current system is imbalanced.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    There's no way to evenly optimise:

    preservation of interpros / derbies
    a fair pool structure
    a tournament structure that doesn't yield migraines

    Build a simple, understandable tournament that's attractive to TV viewers; rivalries and live ticket sales will naturally follow.

    Build a tournament around preserving current rivalries and ticket sales is a step backwards, imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭ The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Well if it ain't broke don't fix it; I just presumed they'd continue going to Munster?
    petty. Why completely cut the number of pros playing the sport. Some could go abroad but most wouldnt. That isnt good for the game
    I think if we want to keep all the interpros then put those teams in the same conference. That causes an issue with Euro qualification but the current system is imbalanced.
    the current system would be better than this. There will always be an imbalance with any format.
    Neil3030 wrote: »
    There's no way to evenly optimise:

    preservation of interpros / derbies
    a fair pool structure
    a tournament structure that doesn't yield migraines

    Build a simple, understandable tournament that's attractive to TV viewers; rivalries and live ticket sales will naturally follow.

    Build a tournament around preserving current rivalries and ticket sales is a step backwards, imo.
    live ticket sales wont follow as tou are primarily looking at just home fans and that wont work for a lot of games. Losing several of the derbies would be crazy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    Yes any conference format comes with its deficiencies.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,519 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Neil3030


    petty. Why completely cut the number of pros playing the sport. Some could go abroad but most wouldnt. That isnt good for the game

    You're stating a fairly qualified prediction as fact here. Why will there be less professional rugby players if the standard of the Pro14/16 increases with fewer games?
    live ticket sales wont follow as tou are primarily looking at just home fans and that wont work for a lot of games. Losing several of the derbies would be crazy.

    More fans try get tickets for home pool matches in the Heino, than a home Pro14 league match against any province. Derbies add extra spice to a meaningful encounter; the tournament makes the game meaningful.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭ The Lost Sheep


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    You're stating a fairly qualified prediction as fact here. Why will there be less professional rugby players if the standard of the Pro14/16 increases with fewer games?

    More fans try get tickets for home pool matches in the Heino, than a home Pro14 league match against any province. Derbies add extra spice to a meaningful encounter; the tournament makes the game meaningful.
    less games, less players needed to be contracted especially if you have the top players playing more.
    Connacht get more to interpros than some of their European games.


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