Anyone up for a Pro20 ??

Dylbag

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

new rivalries wont replace income of games against sides from your country

True.


If there could be an agreement where proXX games between teams from your own country could fall under a dual broadcasting deal which would allow the IRFU for example to promote their own inter pro series and sell rights etc. To make up for the loss of earnings with gate receipts.

Digifriendly

Neil3030 wrote: »

My personal preference would be spitting everyone up, similar to the current format.

So if it were two pools of 8, each pool would have 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 SA, 1 Scot, 1 Italian.

I'm undecided whether to rebalance them each season off last year's performance, or leave them permanently a la the NFL conferences... If you want to build new rivalries, you go with the latter I'd say.

I think that might at present be breaking government regulations. :)

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

new rivalries wont replace income of games against sides from your country

They don't have to.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

They don't have to.

So where do you replace that income from then? Match day revenue is key to all sides and losing your biggest days out and all associated income from them would be idiotic.

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So where do you replace that income from then? Match day revenue is key to all sides and losing your biggest days out and all associated income from them would be idiotic.

TV money. The whole reason SA teams are being entertained in the first place.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

TV money. The whole reason SA teams are being entertained in the first place.

TV money only goes some of the way and if you remove a lot of the games that get your best attendance in the season you are weakening the product you sell to TV companies. It doesnt make sense

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

TV money only goes some of the way and if you remove a lot of the games that get your best attendance in the season you are weakening the product you sell to TV companies. It doesnt make sense

Do you mind sharing those numbers with me?

connachta

You can have the 4 missing interpros per Provinces on a Summer tournament, which will work well IMO

Cookiemunster

connachta wrote: »

You can have the 4 missing interpros per Provinces on a Summer tournament, which will work well IMO

Nobody would attend pre season interpros. If its not a competive competition, which a preseason tournament wouldn't be, they attraction would not be there.

And they'd definitely be minus all the internationals.

Former Former

I think it's very unlikely that IRFU would sign up to anything that doesn't include a full programme of interpros, home and away. The other unions would probably be the same.

The Lost Sheep

Neil3030 wrote: »

Do you mind sharing those numbers with me?

Munster CEO said recently(cant find link) about their reliance on ticket sales, hospitality and all the other matchday revenue streams, which currently account for around 50 per cent of total turnover.
Reducing that considerably by reducing your best attended games is ridiculous.

connachta wrote: »

You can have the 4 missing interpros per Provinces on a Summer tournament, which will work well IMO

it wouldnt get crowds especially if played pre season/summer with weakened squads

Neil3030

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster CEO said recently(cant find link) about their reliance on ticket sales, hospitality and all the other matchday revenue streams, which currently account for around 50 per cent of total turnover.

So you're not even going to entertain the potential benefit of widening other revenue streams.

Buer

There's no chance of the IRFU getting on board with a format that removes interprovincial games. The reason they have the convoluted, inter-pool fixture list that we currently see is largely to accommodate them.

Not to be deliberately dismissive but it's wasted energy putting much thought into a format that will reduce the interprovincials; the IRFU need them to maximise revenue and, in a post-Covid world, domestic games are going to be absolutely central.

connachta

Buer wrote: »

There's no chance of the IRFU getting on board with a format that removes interprovincial games. The reason they have the convoluted, inter-pool fixture list that we currently see is largely to accommodate them.

Not to be deliberately dismissive but it's wasted energy putting much thought into a format that will reduce the interprovincials; the IRFU need them to maximise revenue and, in a post-Covid world, domestic games are going to be absolutely central.

Missing Interpros could be in August, Internationals are in July.
Of course they won't play all but IRFU can allow (even encourage) them to play 160 pre-season minutes splited in 4 games


August interpros will have succes FFS all Ireland does not go abroad in August

Cookiemunster

connachta wrote: »

Missing Interpros could be in August, Internationals are in July.
Of course they won't play all but IRFU can allow (even encourage) them to play 160 pre-season minutes splited in 4 games


August interpros will have succes FFS all Ireland does not go abroad in August

August interpros would be preseason friendlies in all but name. The internationals would still be on their enforced 4 week holiday, so would not be available and wouldn't actually be available to play before late September/October after they've done a preseason. Nobody would go to these games.

Buer

connachta wrote: »

Missing Interpros could be in August, Internationals are in July.
Of course they won't play all but IRFU can allow (even encourage) them to play 160 pre-season minutes splited in 4 games


August interpros will have succes FFS all Ireland does not go abroad in August

August interpros would not be successful relative to the current situation and you're still proposing to cut the overall number of interpros.

If they're at the start of the season and not part of a wider tournament they would, as others have said, be viewed as pre-season friendlies in all but name. The public imagination would not be grabbed whatsoever by them. For a comparison, Irish RWC warm ups in August are generally very diluted, soulless affairs. These would be the provincial equivalent.

thomond2006

August interpros with weakened sides squashed into an Irish sporting summer would be a disaster. Standalone games in international rugby draw a crowd due to their tradition in some ways. Thrown together interpros won't.

It's another matter if the Pro1x season could be started by a week or two of interpros in September but you would need full lineups to gain attention. I've always thought the Pro14's season starting with a whimper never helped it.

connachta

Buer wrote: »

August interpros would not be successful relative to the current situation and you're still proposing to cut the overall number of interpros.

no, 4 Summer Interpros, + 2 interpros in the regular season

Buer

connachta wrote: »

no, 4 Summer Interpros, + 2 interpros in the regular season

Fair enough but that makes it completely disjointed unless I'm missing something.

If the summer series is each province playing 4 times, it means you play one other province twice. If you're playing home and away against another province in the Pro14, you'll play them 3 times in a season (assuming they're not the province you face twice in the summer) and only face the remaining third province a single time.

connachta

But IMO it's plan B

Plan A is based on limiting travel

4 Irish are equivalent level to SA 4 provinces, it's easier then!


Yaer 1
4 Irish 4 Welsh
4 SA 2 Scots 2 Italians

Year 2
4 Irish 2 Scots 2 Italians
4 SA 4 Welsh


And Irish teams WILL play Saffers in a big final phase with QF (and classication games) vs other pool


14 regular games, including 6 interpros
5 final rounds (home and away QF and SF, Final)

molloyjh

Has anyone else not considered that we're effectively talking about how to structure Super Rugby here? A competition spread across a large geographical area with a relatively complex and imperfect format. With a major aim to secure SA TV revenues to enable the other Unions compete against the big NH Unions. It didnt work out to well for Super Rugby. And while we may not have quite the same number of issues to deal with (time zones) it seems to me to be a very, very similar situation. I'd be very concerned about it ending up the same way.

For me we need to consolidate the product that we have here in the NH, not look to chase TV revenues all over the globe.

connachta

Buer wrote: »

Fair enough but that makes it completely disjointed unless I'm missing something.

If the summer series is each province playing 4 times, it means you play one other province twice. If you're playing home and away against another province in the Pro14, you'll play them 3 times in a season (assuming they're not the province you face twice in the summer) and only face the remaining third province a single time.

no, exemple :


Connacht play Ulster and Munster home and away in the summertime tournament
and Leinster home and away in regular season (same pool)




It could mean (I thought about it this night) a BIG day for each province home

, facing 2 provinces one after the other


Exemple :


Connacht play Ulster and Munster at the Sportsground in 2 games on the same day


15 n°1, 15 n°2 + a bench of 15 used in both games!


the away teams just bring a classic 23.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

Has anyone else not considered that we're effectively talking about how to structure Super Rugby here? A competition spread across a large geographical area with a relatively complex and imperfect format. With a major aim to secure SA TV revenues to enable the other Unions compete against the big NH Unions. It didnt work out to well for Super Rugby. And while we may not have quite the same number of issues to deal with (time zones) it seems to me to be a very, very similar situation. I'd be very concerned about it ending up the same way.

For me we need to consolidate the product that we have here in the NH, not look to chase TV revenues all over the globe.

That would make sense if the pro xx was a good product, but it's one that I believe is fundamentally broken.

A major issue in this is the IRFU and their ability to manipulate the competition around interpro time with their insistence on test player down time. They may argue that they don't influence what particular games players are rested for, but I don't believe that. I think it's clear that in most of the interpros (apart from world cup warm up year) the teams were stacked to suit the home side, with the away side resting front liners.
Its arguable that this policy is also partly to blame for our continuing struggles come world cup time.

The product also doesn't work in its current guise where it gives the 2 team nations twice the about of games against y the same national opposition.

Put on top of that the mess of the Welsh regions and their unashamed lust to be part of a British league.

I would love if the proxx became a league that was justifiably comparative to the premiership and top 14, in its competitiveness. Its a hell of a long way off as it currently exists.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

That would make sense if the pro xx was a good product, but it's one that I believe is fundamentally broken.

A major issue in this is the IRFU and their ability to manipulate the competition around interpro time with their insistence on test player down time. They may argue that they don't influence what particular games players are rested for, but I don't believe that. I think it's clear that in most of the interpros (apart from world cup warm up year) the teams were stacked to suit the home side, with the away side resting front liners.
Its arguable that this policy is also partly to blame for our continuing struggles come world cup time.

The product also doesn't work in its current guise where it gives the 2 team nations twice the about of games against y the same national opposition.

Put on top of that the mess of the Welsh regions and their unashamed lust to be part of a British league.

I would love if the proxx became a league that was justifiably comparative to the premiership and top 14, in its competitiveness. Its a hell of a long way off as it currently exists.

So to fix it we make the same mistake that the Kiwis and the Aussies made?

I think a huge issue with the league is peoples need to compare it to the Premiership and the Top 14. But we are not England nor are we France. We will never be England or France. We want to compare apples to oranges and make them the same. We can't. And the sooner people realise that the better.

We have to operate differently because we are different. And Ireland has shown that this difference can be massively beneficial if managed the right way. Over the last 15 years Ireland has won 4 6Ns titles, second only to Wales. We have won 6 HECs, more titles than any other country in that time. We have won 9 league titles, more than all other countries in the competition combined.

Sure you can point to the latter being a sign of the weakness of the league, but its not wildly out of step with what we've seen at other levels. Irish teams in the last 15 years have shown a level of success that exceeds all other countries. We have done that by playing to our strengths. Not by copying what other countries in completely different positions to ourselves have done. The league has to form part of that, and currently does just that.

For example, England have the luxury of 3 times the number of teams that we have. This means that on a weekly basis young talent have opportunities to get game time because their teams aren't log jammed with internationals. We do not have that luxury. The only way we can come close to blooding players to even close to the same degree is rotation. That very thing that so many call a weakness in the league is what enables us to keep pace at higher levels. Remove that and we hamstring ourselves further up the chain.

No action we take with the league is without consequences elsewhere. Too many people look at and/or talk about the league a competition that exists in a vacuum. It doesnt.

errlloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

Has anyone else not considered that we're effectively talking about how to structure Super Rugby here?

I genuinely consider the fact we are doing four equal and (relatively logical) pools of four in one time zone as a huge advantage here. This should aim to be a relatively short season where South Africa, Wales and Ireland play a domestic competition with a few flyaway games, to decide who qualifies for a postseason. Scotland and Italy have to get hammed together and that isn't really ideal, but **** em.

daddy pig

12 English, 14 French, 4 Irish, 4 South African, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish, 2 Italian.

3 Divisions of 14 teams, play everyone in your division home and away for 26 game season.
Promotion for the winners of division 2 and 3, playoff between 2nd and 3rd in division to see who is promoted with them.
Relegation for bottom 2 places in division 1 and 2.
Division 1 winner decided by play offs with home semi and final determined by final position in division 1.

I may have plagiarised Rugby 08 slightly but I still take 100% credit for the idea.

I foresee zero problems and believe all the unions and clubs will be on board

Tommybojangles

daddy pig wrote: »

12 English, 14 French, 4 Irish, 4 South African, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish, 2 Italian.

3 Divisions of 14 teams, play everyone in your division home and away for 26 game season.
Promotion for the winners of division 2 and 3, playoff between 2nd and 3rd in division to see who is promoted with them.
Relegation for bottom 2 places in division 1 and 2.
Division 1 winner decided by play offs with home semi and final determined by final position in division 1.

I may have plagiarised Rugby 08 slightly but I still take 100% credit for the idea.

I foresee zero problems and believe all the unions and clubs will be on board

No Connacht option in that mode of rugby 08 was literally my only issue with the game.
Get Gavin Duffy to kick the leather off it for your division 4 team and you were laughing

AbusesToilets

molloyjh wrote: »

So to fix it we make the same mistake that the Kiwis and the Aussies made?

I think a huge issue with the league is peoples need to compare it to the Premiership and the Top 14. But we are not England nor are we France. We will never be England or France. We want to compare apples to oranges and make them the same. We can't. And the sooner people realise that the better.

We have to operate differently because we are different. And Ireland has shown that this difference can be massively beneficial if managed the right way. Over the last 15 years Ireland has won 4 6Ns titles, second only to Wales. We have won 6 HECs, more titles than any other country in that time. We have won 9 league titles, more than all other countries in the competition combined.

Sure you can point to the latter being a sign of the weakness of the league, but its not wildly out of step with what we've seen at other levels. Irish teams in the last 15 years have shown a level of success that exceeds all other countries. We have done that by playing to our strengths. Not by copying what other countries in completely different positions to ourselves have done. The league has to form part of that, and currently does just that.

For example, England have the luxury of 3 times the number of teams that we have. This means that on a weekly basis young talent have opportunities to get game time because their teams aren't log jammed with internationals. We do not have that luxury. The only way we can come close to blooding players to even close to the same degree is rotation. That very thing that so many call a weakness in the league is what enables us to keep pace at higher levels. Remove that and we hamstring ourselves further up the chain.

No action we take with the league is without consequences elsewhere. Too many people look at and/or talk about the league a competition that exists in a vacuum. It doesnt.

It's benefited Irish teams, but it hasn't to the same extent all the other nations. There's never going to be a properly competitive ProXX if the Unions can meddle in the day to day running of the league. It's not fair and it weakens the product they're trying to sell.

The national team is the focus and the IRFU meddles to prioritise them, but if we lose the ability to have our club teams play in a comp, how well will the nation team do? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the other leagues poach the Welsh or Scottish teams, or the SA ones for that matter.

Neil3030

You'd have to imagine the SA teams would want into the ERC too. I can actually see this being the major sticking point tbh. Pro14 teams will have that massive extra cash cow each season, while the SA teams have to watch at home.