Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Vudgie · 16-07-2020 09:49AM

pgj2015 wrote: »

I think the majority of Irish people aren't that afraid of the virus, that is why most don't wear masks etc yet its funny how the "leaders" of the country are behaving like complete wimps over it. we would be better off dead than live this half life.

Haha a bit of an exaggeration, it says more about you that you view people that wear masks as wimps. Pathetic.

pgj2015 · 16-07-2020 09:50AM

Vudgie wrote: »

Haha a bit of an exaggeration, it says more about you that you view people that wear masks as wimps. Pathetic.

you need to practice the old reading. I called the government wimps not people who wear masks.

16-07-2020 09:52AM

It is wrong to assume that people are outraged just because the pubs are not allowed to reopen. I have no intention of actually going to the pub myself. But I am beyond frustrated to think that we STILL have restrictions in place when we are only reporting a small number of cases every day.

I feel very sorry for the pub owners, all of the staff and everybody whose job relies on pubs been open. They have now received the message that 14 cases a day is too high for them to open. Will we have less than 14 cases a day in 3 weeks? If not, how long do pubs need to stay closed for at that point? Will the government write them all a cheque to cover the necessary expenses to remain open?

If we can't open a few pubs... how the hell are we ever going to open the schools? What ridiculous requirements will be in place? Kids can go to school for 1 day a week if dressed in full PPE gear and don't talk to their friends?

And then onto the masks... lol!!! The masks that wouldn't help when there was 1000 cases a day. Suddenly, we need to wear them when there are low numbers of cases. And a few days after UK announced it was mandatory. (Who are much worse off than we are)

And the green list is coming on Monday! So we'll actually be allowed to travel and drink as much as we want in pubs abroad. Thats safer than just doing it here I guess?

What an absolute farce this whole thing has been. Disgraceful how we have handled this.

Vudgie · 16-07-2020 09:53AM

pgj2015 wrote: »

you need to practice the old reading. I called the government wimps not people who wear masks.

The implication was there, but hell you think that you would be better off dead anyway hahaha. Pathetic posts in fairness.

pgj2015 · 16-07-2020 09:56AM

Vudgie wrote: »

The implication was there, but hell you think that you would be better off dead anyway hahaha. Pathetic posts in fairness.

some people like living like they are still in school perhaps. not me. anyone would admit its a pretty $hit version of life compared to this time last year. anyway you have a nice day.

snotboogie · 16-07-2020 09:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is wrong to assume that people are outraged just because the pubs are not allowed to reopen. I have no intention of actually going to the pub myself. But I am beyond frustrated to think that we STILL have restrictions in place when we are only reporting a small number of cases every day.

I feel very sorry for the pub owners, all of the staff and everybody whose job relies on pubs been open. They have now received the message that 14 cases a day is too high for them to open. Will we have less than 14 cases a day in 3 weeks? If not, how long do pubs need to stay closed for at that point? Will the government write them all a cheque to cover the necessary expenses to remain open?

If we can't open a few pubs... how the hell are we ever going to open the schools? What ridiculous requirements will be in place? Kids can go to school for 1 day a week if dressed in full PPE gear and don't talk to their friends?

And then onto the masks... lol!!! The masks that wouldn't help when there was 1000 cases a day. Suddenly, we need to wear them when there are low numbers of cases. And a few days after UK announced it was mandatory. (Who are much worse off than we are)

And the green list is coming on Monday! So we'll actually be allowed to travel and drink as much as we want in pubs abroad. Thats safer than just doing it here I guess?

What an absolute farce this whole thing has been. Disgraceful how we have handled this.

When there was a shortage of PPE, masks were prioritized for front line health workers. Hence the lack of recommendation to wear them. In the meantime there have also been extensive studies which further prove their efficacy.

The developed Asian countries (Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Korea) who didn't have PPE shortages and have extensive experience with Coronoavirus' (via the SARS outbreak) have been recommending masks since February.

facehugger99 · 16-07-2020 10:07AM

Donnelly on Morning Ireland hiding behind the "public health advice" excuse - plus ca change!

When are they going to get some advice about the economic devastation that is being currently wrought on the country?

If the "advice" is 14 cases are too many, we are fcuked because it's clear there will never be a safe number to allow reopening.

This bollox about the 'R' number is a complete nonsense when the figures are so small and clustered.

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 10:11AM

I have no issue with masks and I will wear one as advised, but like everything else the handling of it has been shocking. The issue with the masks has been the inconsistency from Day 1. I've seen some in this thread claim that masks were always correct to wear, but we weren't advised to do so because we didnt have any. This was not what happened. This is a lie.

Everybody thought that surely a mask would protect you from this. The WHO almost emphatically said no and people were actually ridiculed for wearing one. Look at this article in The Irish Times from March.

Take the issue of face masks. The World Health Organisation is clear that people with no respiratory symptoms, such as cough, do not need to wear face masks. Masks are recommended for people who have symptoms of coronavirus and people caring for those who have symptoms, such as cough and fever. This includes healthcare workers and people who are minding someone either at home or in a healthcare facility. There is no reason why people outside of these categories should wear masks. There is no benefit.

Pretty incredible turnaround from then.

A month later, in April, the advice was similar:

"If you are not ill or looking after someone who is ill, then you are wasting a mask,”.

We had the HSE lead for infections diseases, Martin Cormican then say the following:

"There is no evidence the universal use of surgical masks is effective in reducing this beyond what is achieved by standard precautions [hand hygiene, respiratory hygiene and cough etiquette and environmental cleaning] and minimising interpersonal interaction.”

Followed by Dr Cillian de Gascun, government advisor on Covid saying the following:

“We are aware of anxiety among healthcare workers. There really isn’t any evidence there to recommend the wearing of face masks for asymptomatic individuals.”

The masks weren't recommended by the WHO until last month. People have seen a continual reduction in numbers with no mask wearing, even as the country reopens. I agree that if there is even a tiny chance that it offers you better protection, then why not wear one. Especially if it gets things moving quicker. But the sanctimonious nature of some of the posts on masks is actually sickening.

Links for quotes and sources; https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/panic-and-hysteria-will-undermine-efforts-to-contain-coronavirus-1.4189459?mode=amp
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/who-changes-face-mask-advice-saying-people-should-wear-when-unable-to-distance-1.4272138?mode=amp
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-should-everybody-be-wearing-masks-to-combat-covid-19-1.4218062?mode=amp

Seweryn · 16-07-2020 10:31AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

Donnelly on Morning Ireland hiding behind the "public health advice" excuse - plus ca change!

When are they going to get some advice about the economic devastation that is being currently wrought on the country?

If the "advice" is 14 cases are too many, we are fcuked because it's clear there will never be a safe number to allow reopening.

This bollox about the 'R' number is a complete nonsense when the figures are so small and clustered.

14 _Cases_ ? Is this for real (sorry, I haven't looked at this for a while)?
Cases... So, I guess feck all deaths, and they are hugely overcounted anyway. I can't believe this.

It is clear that the whole hoax is being well organised and people brainwashed. How many people actually look at real numbers and analyse them? I guess very few, because they are not published in every country (not here anyway).

The statistics show that the Cov. thing is not (and definitely no longer) an epidemic. Doctors admit that there are now very few deaths from the disease. Many doctors are saying that there never was an epidemic. The whole thing was a massive manipulation and continues to be so.

I am not saying the virus does not exist. It is the actions by most governments are off the wall to deal with the issue.

average_runner · 16-07-2020 10:36AM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

We are allowed play and train in football and GAA. We have basically been told not to social distance. You cant social distance playing football

Yes but that is all outside where risk is lower.
Gymnastics have a limited number for training.

completedit · 16-07-2020 10:37AM

Is an argument for mask wearing and a more religious attitude to wearing them because more people are out and about. A few months ago nobody was going anywhere so the need to wear masks wasn't as high.

snotboogie · 16-07-2020 10:43AM

Coybig_ wrote: »

I have no issue with masks and I will wear one as advised, but like everything else the handling of it has been shocking. The issue with the masks has been the inconsistency from Day 1. I've seen some in this thread claim that masks were always correct to wear, but we weren't advised to do so because we didnt have any. This was not what happened. This is a lie.

Everybody thought that surely a mask would protect you from this. The WHO almost emphatically said no and people were actually ridiculed for wearing one. Look at this article in The Irish Times from March.

Pretty incredible turnaround from then.

A month later, in April, the advice was similar:

We had the HSE lead for infections diseases, Martin Cormican then say the following:

Followed by Dr Cillian de Gascun, government advisor on Covid saying the following:

The masks weren't recommended by the WHO until last month. People have seen a continual reduction in numbers with no mask wearing, even as the country reopens. I agree that if there is even a tiny chance that it offers you better protection, then why not wear one. Especially if it gets things moving quicker. But the sanctimonious nature of some of the posts on masks is actually sickening.

Links for quotes and sources; https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/panic-and-hysteria-will-undermine-efforts-to-contain-coronavirus-1.4189459?mode=amp
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/who-changes-face-mask-advice-saying-people-should-wear-when-unable-to-distance-1.4272138?mode=amp
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-should-everybody-be-wearing-masks-to-combat-covid-19-1.4218062?mode=amp

I'm not being sanctimonious, I am trying to explain to people why "sure dey said not to wear em in April and now der sayin to wear em now, no point in listening to them at all" is a ridiculous argument. It is an evolving situation and Western Governments were caught sleeping in regards to PPE and in terms of actual best practice. That combined to give us the advice we got in April. Now the PPE shortage has been taken care of and more studies have come out, the advice is clear. Wear a mask when in public indoors.

I'm not saying everyone should have been plugged into the situation in Asia but in those countries where governments were not caught napping, the advice was clear from Day 1.

dundalkfc10 · 16-07-2020 10:44AM

average_runner wrote: »

Yes but that is all outside where risk is lower.
Gymnastics have a limited number for training.

Indoor 5 a side pitches are open 2 weeks now

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-07-2020 10:47AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Because we have a populist government.

The popular decision these days is the most PC correct decision.

At whatever cost to the state the perpetually offended must be protected at all costs.

Nobody wants to be the cause of another end of life patient dying of Covid.

Cancer deaths are a more "popular" death. Less suffering it seems from cancer, and a cancer death wont generate thanks for some uneducated buffon commenting RIP on social media

But the government are acting in line with advice from medical experts.

Gael23 · 16-07-2020 10:53AM

The reason why they said no to masks was to protect supply for the health service

facehugger99 · 16-07-2020 10:55AM

Ansley Savory Podiatrist wrote: »

But the government are acting in line with advice from medical experts.

It is incumbent on the Government to consider more than the advice of a very narrow band of 'experts' when formulating policy.

If I ask a virologist how best to combat the spread of Covid-19, he'll probably recommend that we stay locked down until a vaccine is produced. Whether the country falls into economic devastation during this period is not their concern, nor does it need to be.

There are less than 20 people in ICU with the virus but there are hundreds of thousands receiving an emergency payment who may not have jobs to go back to with what is happening.

Covid-19 is not solely a matter for "medical experts". When are the Government going to realise this and act accordingly?

dundalkfc10 · 16-07-2020 10:56AM

Well for a start, Shops should not be profiting on selling of masks. Some of the prices for basic disposable ones are a disgrace, and the same shops want our business to help them through the crisis.

snotboogie · 16-07-2020 11:00AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It is incumbent on the Government to consider more than the advice of a very narrow band of 'experts' when formulating policy.

If I ask a virologist how best to combat the spread of Covid-19, he'll probably recommend that we stay locked down until a vaccine is produced. Whether the country falls into economic devastation during this period is not their concern, nor does it need to be.

There are less than 20 people in ICU with the virus but there are hundreds of thousands receiving an emergency payment who may not have jobs to go back to with what is happening.

Covid-19 is not solely a matter for "medical experts". When are the Government going to realise this and act accordingly?

I see this continually perpetuated. The lockdown being proposed by experts is so that we can go back to normal ASAP, not the "new normal" right now

Gael23 · 16-07-2020 11:00AM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Well for a start, Shops should not be profiting on selling of masks. Some of the prices for basic disposable ones are a disgrace, and the same shops want our business to help them through the crisis.

They are €2 each in some places. I got 20 for €15 in Dunnes

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 11:00AM

Gael23 wrote: »

The reason why they said no to masks was to protect supply for the health service

The WHO issued worldwide mask wearing directives based on the Irish health services levels of ppe?

Seriously?

CruelSummer · 16-07-2020 11:07AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It is incumbent on the Government to consider more than the advice of a very narrow band of 'experts' when formulating policy.

If I ask a virologist how best to combat the spread of Covid-19, he'll probably recommend that we stay locked down until a vaccine is produced. Whether the country falls into economic devastation during this period is not their concern, nor does it need to be.

There are less than 20 people in ICU with the virus but there are hundreds of thousands receiving an emergency payment who may not have jobs to go back to with what is happening.

Covid-19 is not solely a matter for "medical experts". When are the Government going to realise this and act accordingly?

Not to mention the fact that many of these medical experts disagree with each other frequently and all have different solutions to the current situation we are in.
Ireland's biggest mistake is handing over Governance to NPHET. It shows a distinct lack of leadership and competence in our elected officials. NPHET are an advisory body, who should be listened to, whose views are important - but their views are not a broad Government response and should never be treated as such. Do we have a broader range of experts giving advice to the Government concurrently? For every impact these Restrictions have re containing Covid - what detrimental impact do they also have on our society and country?

Coybig_ · 16-07-2020 11:08AM

snotboogie wrote: »

I'm not being sanctimonious, I am trying to explain to people why "sure dey said not to wear em in April and now der sayin to wear em now, no point in listening to them at all" is a ridiculous argument. It is an evolving situation and Western Governments were caught sleeping in regards to PPE and in terms of actual best practice. That combined to give us the advice we got in April. Now the PPE shortage has been taken care of and more studies have come out, the advice is clear. Wear a mask when in public indoors.

I'm not saying everyone should have been plugged into the situation in Asia but in those countries where governments were not caught napping, the advice was clear from Day 1.

It literally wasnt clear. The WHO only said that there was a benefit to wearing them in June.

As I have shown in my post which you have blatantly ignored to repeat your own point, there was a continual denial that masks offered any protection against Covid. This was not linked to PPE levels, this was the directive by the WHO and our various health advisors.

So you can understand why people would be thinking, what's going on here then, how have these masks become so vital when just 2 months ago we were being told they would make absolutely no difference.

It follows on from the established pattern of inconsistency, from a government who hasn't yet published a green list for Irish people travelling, but let's people arrive here from anywhere and go about their business. From a government who have repeatedly shifted the goalposts on absolutely everything such as the intentions and goals of lockdown and the continued bleating on about the R rate as something of significance.

is_that_so · 16-07-2020 11:08AM

Gael23 wrote: »

The reason why they said no to masks was to protect supply for the health service

It was actually weak evidence except if you were infected. It still hasn't been proven with COVID but there are a plethora of studies of people shouting, coughing and breathing, which just show the possibility of droplets we exhale spreading.

is_that_so · 16-07-2020 11:14AM

CruelSummer wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that many of these medical experts disagree with each other frequently and all have different solutions to the current situation we are in.
Ireland's biggest mistake is handing over Governance to NPHET. It shows a distinct lack of leadership and competence in our elected officials. NPHET are an advisory body, who should be listened to, whose views are important - but their views are not a broad Government response and should never be treated as such. Do we have a broader range of experts giving advice to the Government concurrently? For every impact these Restrictions have re containing Covid - what detrimental impact do they also have on our society and country?

They appointed NPHET and they do have the expertise and a good range of people in there. For most of this they have been very good but I don't think they have the ability nor the flexibility now to get past this waiting a full cycle. It was the way to go for a very long time but they were aware of rising cases last week, they should have taken a stance then.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-07-2020 11:20AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It is incumbent on the Government to consider more than the advice of a very narrow band of 'experts' when formulating policy.

If I ask a virologist how best to combat the spread of Covid-19, he'll probably recommend that we stay locked down until a vaccine is produced. Whether the country falls into economic devastation during this period is not their concern, nor does it need to be.

There are less than 20 people in ICU with the virus but there are hundreds of thousands receiving an emergency payment who may not have jobs to go back to with what is happening.

Covid-19 is not solely a matter for "medical experts". When are the Government going to realise this and act accordingly?

Yes you're right, it's a question of balance between economic and medical priorities. But some posters seem to think there's some kind of Govt brainwashing going on which make them sound like those idiots in Texas.

It was always made clear that this wasn't going to be a straightforward linear process, more a two steps forward one step back journey. Thinking that once something has been reopened it will stay reopened for good, or that because it has been anticipated that further openings will be allowed by a certain date then that will definitely happen is naive. It's going to be trial and error and reacting to changing levels in the community for a while. We're dealing with something unprecedented here and officials can just do the best they can with the knowledge they have at a given time.

tobefrank321 · 16-07-2020 11:22AM

They'll have to reintroduce restrictions on non related people meeting up under the one roof - eg house parties.

stephenjmcd · 16-07-2020 11:25AM

is_that_so wrote: »

They appointed NPHET and they do have the expertise and a good range of people in there. For most of this they have been very good but I don't think they have the ability nor the flexibility now to get past this waiting a full cycle. It was the way to go for a very long time but they were aware of rising cases last week, they should have taken a stance then.

There's almost too many on NPHET, the list of NPHET members is staggering. Would have liked to see some other sectors involved in it though, such as Gardai for example. No point in NPHET saying oh just get the Gardaí to monitor this and that without any consultation with them.

Perhaps also some economic consequences with input from dept of finance economist might be helpful also.

Because as it stands, NPHET basically tells cabinet what to do

ixoy · 16-07-2020 11:25AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

They'll have to reintroduce restrictions on non related people meeting up under the one roof - eg house parties.

Be curious if these house parties have increased much since restrictions were removed? I'd be surprised if a re-introduced restriction would reduce them and that those in place right now are even obeying the current regulations.

Hurrache · 16-07-2020 11:28AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

It is incumbent on the Government to consider more than the advice of a very narrow band of 'experts' when formulating policy.

If I ask a virologist how best to combat the spread of Covid-19, he'll probably recommend that we stay locked down until a vaccine is produced. Whether the country falls into economic devastation during this period is not their concern, nor does it need to be.

There are less than 20 people in ICU with the virus but there are hundreds of thousands receiving an emergency payment who may not have jobs to go back to with what is happening.

Covid-19 is not solely a matter for "medical experts". When are the Government going to realise this and act accordingly?

At risk of another yellow card as I repeatedly, and annoyingly, pointed this out yesterday, that no Irish government, no matter who is leading it, will have changed their approach to NPHET advice as they're all in agreement with the coalitions decisions yesterday.

These a public health decisions, not political ones that some bizarrely think are driven by what people say on Twitter.

tobefrank321 · 16-07-2020 11:36AM

ixoy wrote: »

Be curious if these house parties have increased much since restrictions were removed? I'd be surprised if a re-introduced restriction would reduce them and that those in place right now are even obeying the current regulations.

House parties would represent the same risk or an even bigger risk than a pub.

At least with pubs you'd have some regulation - taking a mobile number for contact tracing, perspex screens, etc. You wouldn't eliminate the risk but you'd make tracing a bit easier.

That probably wouldn't exist for house parties. No regulations. So time to ban them.

I'm all for families and extended families meeting up, eg grandkids visiting grandparents. But house parties with dozens of people many of them strangers is a massive risk.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings