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Will Britain piss off and get on with Brexit II (mod warning in OP)

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    #3602
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Rob, can you give us your understanding of what it means to be "negotiating in good faith"?


    I think that you take it to mean acquiescing to the other sides demands? Am I wrong?


    My understanding of the phrase is that a party who is negotiating in good faith is one who is honest and open about what they will agree to, and the other party trusts that if they agree to something, that they intend to hold themselves to that.


    If your interpretation is instead similar to mine, can you give us an example where the EU agreed to something and then a short time later changed their position?

    Negotiating in good faith means genuinely listening to the other party with a willingness to come to a mutually acceptable agreement.As I've said,I agree that as the larger party with more to offer the EU has the upper hand but that doesn't mean the UK has no bargaining leverage.
    Regarding the EU changing its position,who has claimed that?


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    #3603
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,988 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    This "good faith" is b*llocks. The EU are negotiating for the benefit of the 27, not for the benefit of Britain.

    Why should they make any concessions they don't need to? The UK happily put themselves into this hole. The EU don't need to give them a hand digging themselves out.

    If it benefits the EU members to leave them in the hole, then that's the course the EU negotiators should take.


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    #3604
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Negotiating in good faith means genuinely listening to the other party with a willingness to come to a mutually acceptable agreement.As I've said,I agree that as the larger party with more to offer the EU has the upper hand but that doesn't mean the UK has no bargaining leverage.
    Regarding the EU changing its position,who has claimed that?




    It doesn't mean that Rob. You are simply saying that "negotiating in good faith" means that one side (the EU) has to be willing to acquiesce to the UKs demands. But there are two sides and you are only looking at it from one side. The UK says "this is as far as we are going" and you say "that's grand". The EU says "this is as far as we are going" and you say "that's not good faith".


    The EU clearly laid out the options to the UK at the start and said "Here is what you can have. Which one do you want?". The UK has put nothing on the table except for to effectively say "we want all the benefits of what we used to have when we were paid-up members of the club, but now we want it for free, and btw, we won't allow ourselves to be bound by any of your rules".



    There is no "mutually acceptable" agreement given those constraints and the UK should just exit the transition period and stop wasting everyone's time. It is in their power to do so whenever they wish.



    Then in a couple of years, when the dust settles, they can either come back with their tails between their legs, to the EU and accept the very reasonably and favourable terms offered, or else they will have fully replaced the EU in their other fabulous trade deals and will have no need to do anything with the EU.


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    #3605
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    It doesn't mean that Rob. You are simply saying that "negotiating in good faith" means that one side (the EU) has to be willing to acquiesce to the UKs demands. But there are two sides and you are only looking at it from one side. The UK says "this is as far as we are going" and you say "that's grand". The EU says "this is as far as we are going" and you say "that's not good faith".


    The EU clearly laid out the options to the UK at the start and said "Here is what you can have. Which one do you want?". The UK has put nothing on the table except for to effectively say "we want all the benefits of what we used to have when we were paid-up members of the club, but now we want it for free, and btw, we won't allow ourselves to be bound by any of your rules".



    There is no "mutually acceptable" agreement given those constraints and the UK should just exit the transition period and stop wasting everyone's time. It is in their power to do so whenever they wish.



    Then in a couple of years, when the dust settles, they can either come back with their tails between their legs, to the EU and accept the very reasonably and favourable terms offered, or else they will have fully replaced the EU in their other fabulous trade deals and will have no need to do anything with the EU.

    I don't know why you're getting so airated anyway.You should be more worried about Ireland,it's used up all EU goodwill over brexit and the latest collusion with apple over €13 billion euro tax evasion is probably going to result in Ireland being firmly on the naughty step.


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    #3606
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,988 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I don't know why you're getting so airated anyway.You should be more worried about Ireland,it's used up all EU goodwill over brexit and the latest collusion with apple over €13 billion euro tax evasion is probably going to result in Ireland being firmly on the naughty step.

    People are not irate. Just calling out the bullsh*t when we smell it.

    Ireland is fine. The apple ruling proves that everything was above board and legal. There's plenty of Brexit goodwill because the Irish message has been clear and consistent from day 1


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    #3607
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I don't know why you're getting so airated anyway.You should be more worried about Ireland,it's used up all EU goodwill over brexit and the latest collusion with apple over €13 billion euro tax evasion is probably going to result in Ireland being firmly on the naughty step.


    Ireland is fine within the EU. It gives us a far better position and more influence than if we were outside it. It is not a case of "us" vs. them (EU). It is all "us".


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    #3608
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    People are not irate. Just calling out the bullsh*t when we smell it.

    Ireland is fine. The apple ruling proves that everything was above board and legal. There's plenty of Brexit goodwill because the Irish message has been clear and consistent from day 1

    Perhaps not irate, but hysterical. The UK has made a political decision to leave a bureaucratic supranational institution they no longer want to be a part of.

    There's no reason why this topic should get so emotive, and there's no reason why leaving the EU precludes good cooperation in the future on a less intense level.


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    #3609
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,050 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    theological wrote: »
    Perhaps not irate, but hysterical. The UK has made a political decision to leave a bureaucratic supranational institution they no longer want to be a part of.

    There's no reason why this topic should get so emotive, and there's no reason why leaving the EU precludes good cooperation in the future on a less intense level.

    The only people that will be getting hysterical are the people from UK when they realise they were lied to in a fruitless exit campaign which will be exacerbated when they further realise the cost of those lies.


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    #3610
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I don't know why you're getting so airated anyway.You should be more worried about Ireland,it's used up all EU goodwill over brexit and the latest collusion with apple over €13 billion euro tax evasion is probably going to result in Ireland being firmly on the naughty step.

    Hahaha. What utter nonsense. The matter is now officially, legally settled, and no matter measures might be taken in the future to curtail the creative accounting of the tech giants, Ireland is off the hook.

    Can you please provide some proof for this assertion that we have somehow 'used up all our EU goodwill'? I'd say the opposite is the case. Ireland and the EU are firmly in lockstep, and the whole Brexit thing has served to underline the EU's commitment to all its members - including the smaller ones such as ourselves. I've lost count of the number of times the 'opposition' on here has claimed that Ireland 'will do what it's told by its EU masters'. Not once has it ever come to pass.


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    #3611
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,172 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    theological wrote: »
    Perhaps not irate, but hysterical. The UK has made a political decision to leave a bureaucratic supranational institution they no longer want to be a part of.

    There's no reason why this topic should get so emotive, and there's no reason why leaving the EU precludes good cooperation in the future on a less intense level.


    Do you think that leaving the EU would, in future, allow the UK government even more free reign to award contracts to their buddies without any oversight?


    It would surely get rid of some silly bureaucracy if they could just give their buddies the contracts rather than having to advertise and collect tenders and go through RFPs etc.


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    #3612
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Why this continued line that the EU is not negotiating in good faith? What evidence do you have for this continued inference?

    The EU have give up front throughout this process, whilst the UK has a number of occasions made agreements before quickly back tracking and blaming the EU.

    Nobody has any issue with the EU acting in good faith, it is your repeated line that maybe they aren't that is invoking the response.


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    #3613
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    joeguevara wrote: »
    The only people that will be getting hysterical are the people from UK when they realise they were lied to in a fruitless exit campaign which will be exacerbated when they further realise the cost of those lies.

    I think the UK will manage economically irrespective in the same way as many other countries work outside of supranational institutions. The idea that the UK cannot function, or that society will implode with a no-deal exit is false.

    Do I want a no deal exit? No. That's why I support the negotiations, but the whinging and the hysteria really could be brought down just a notch on this thread.


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    #3614
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    theological wrote: »
    I think the UK will manage economically irrespective in the same way as many other countries work outside of supranational institutions. The idea that the UK cannot function, or that society will implode with a no-deal exit is false.

    Do I want a no deal exit? No. That's why I support the negotiations, but the whinging and the hysteria really could be brought down just a notch on this thread.

    theological wrote: »
    Perhaps not irate, but hysterical.


    Once again, very significant choice of words. People on the right just have an instinctive grasp of the hyberbolic language of propaganda, don't they? No-one on here is 'hysterical'. That's just silly talk, and easily disproved. Similarly, Barnier was not 'stamping his feet', in an earlier post. The EU have consistently set out their positions on different issues early in the discussions, fishing included. The notion of Barnier 'stamping his feet' is fatuous. But it has a purpose: it attempts to make the EU seem frivolous and petty. While it is anything but. If anything the opposite is the case. Projection is another feature on the right, as we see over in the US.

    Then we have theo's usual blend of distortion and exaggeration. First of all, no-one said that the 'UK cannot function' or that 'society will implode with no-deal'. Those statements are wrong. You are falsely imputing them to people on here.

    Finally, we have 'whinging and hysteria' again. The false characterisation of others' statements is typical of the rw mindset.

    'Good faith' has been discussed here today. It would be nice if certain people communicated on here 'in good faith'.


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    #3615
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Originally: Brexit is going to usher in a new era for Global Britain, the EU negotiations will be a piece of cake, no way those car and champagne makers will forgo their trade with GB for the EU's silly rules. It'll be a wonder if the EU survives after we leave to be honest.

    Now? Britain will survive, nobody is going to stave to death or anything, probably.


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    #3616
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    davedanon wrote: »
    Once again, very significant choice of words. People on the right just have an instinctive grasp of the hyberbolic language of propaganda, don't they? No-one on here is 'hysterical'. That's just silly talk, and easily disproved. Similarly, Barnier was not 'stamping his feet', in an earlier post. The EU have consistently set out their positions on different issues early in the discussions, fishing included. The notion of Barnier 'stamping his feet' is fatuous. But it has a purpose: it attempts to make the EU seem frivolous and petty. While it is anything but. If anything the opposite is the case. Projection is another feature on the right, as we see over in the US.

    Then we have theo's usual blend of distortion and exaggeration. First of all, no-one said that the 'UK cannot function' or that 'society will implode with no-deal'. Those statements are wrong. You are falsely imputing them to people on here.

    Finally, we have 'whinging and hysteria' again. The false characterisation of others' statements is typical of the rw mindset.

    'Good faith' has been discussed here today. It would be nice if certain people communicated on here 'in good faith'.


    If you're suggesting that Britain will be minorly inconvenienced in the short term by a no-deal arrangement then I can't see why the reactions on this thread to it are so strong!

    I'm not particularly ashamed of having centre-right political leanings, or being a conservative.

    I think it is a matter that the people in Britain decided and it just needs to be concluded one way or the other at this stage so that everyone can move on. Hopefully it can be resolved constructively.


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    #3617
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    theological wrote: »
    If they do, will you and others on this thread finally stop whinging about it?
    Why the "if", can the mighty uk not just go now and stop pissing around negotiating a deal with the little EU


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    #3618
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    declanflynn wrote: »
    Why the "if", can the mighty uk not just go now and stop pissing around negotiating a deal with the little EU


    It is in everyone's interests to resolve this constructively if possible, despite some of the bravado from some posters on the Eurofederalist side.


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    #3619
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    theological wrote: »
    I think the UK will manage economically irrespective in the same way as many other countries work outside of supranational institutions. The idea that the UK cannot function, or that society will implode with a no-deal exit is false.

    Do I want a no deal exit? No. That's why I support the negotiations, but the whinging and the hysteria really could be brought down just a notch on this thread.
    I'd prefer no deal, the uk want out, so out they should be, they shouldn't be allowed to sit on the half door


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    #3620
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    theological wrote: »
    It is in everyone's interests to resolve this constructively if possible, despite some of the bravado from some posters on the Eurofederalist side.
    No.
    The Brexit ringleaders want no deal and they always get their way, the likes of dominic thinks brexit is the beginning of the end for the EU, so let him have no deal and let the uk people eat cake when it all goes pear shaped


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    #3621
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,988 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    declanflynn wrote: »
    I'd prefer no deal, the uk want out, so out they should be, they shouldn't be allowed to sit on the half door

    Unfortunately for better or worse the EU have let them sit there, pawing at the door asking for extensions. At least now it's over.


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    #3622
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Unfortunately for better or worse the EU have let them sit there, pawing at the door asking for extensions. At least now it's over.


    What extension has been sought? The current government are pretty clear that there will be no more.

    The last extension was sought in the last parliament when remainer MPs forced the government to seek one during their silly tantrums before the election.


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    #3623
    davedanon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,062 ✭✭✭davedanon


    theological wrote: »
    If you're suggesting that Britain will be minorly inconvenienced in the short term by a no-deal arrangement then I can't see why the reactions on this thread to it are so strong!

    You're doing it again. I'm not saying that. YOU'RE ALLEGING I'm saying that. When you know damn well that the hit to the Uk's economy could be 10% or more. Bad faith. But, it seems it's your way.


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    #3624
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    davedanon wrote: »
    You're doing it again. I'm not saying that. YOU'RE ALLEGING I'm saying that. When you know damn well that the hit to the Uk's economy could be 10% or more. Bad faith. But, it seems it's your way.


    Really, over how long a period? That number is significantly higher than what I've read people project.

    Can you cite something?

    So the answer is I don't know this because it seems to be a pretty big outlier.


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    #3625
    declanflynn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭declanflynn


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Unfortunately for better or worse the EU have let them sit there, pawing at the door asking for extensions. At least now it's over.
    But it's not over til they are gone and that's what I'm afraid of - that we wont be able to shake them off, fair play to the Chinese they are going to play hardball with them, Trump is using the uk like a pawn.
    The EU is too soft with them, get rid of them now, let them have their fish, they wont be able to sell it anyway.


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    #3626
    ExMachina1000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭ExMachina1000


    Really good explainer video of who needs who if at all and what's at stake

    https://youtu.be/7vlBu0Ln5so


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    #3627
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,988 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    theological wrote: »
    What extension has been sought? The current government are pretty clear that there will be no more.

    The last extension was sought in the last parliament when remainer MPs forced the government to seek one during their silly tantrums before the election.

    Three extensions have been sought by the British govt. up to now. I don't really care who in the govt sought them, but the easiest deal in history is far from it.

    Even up to last month there was considerable debate on a fourth extension. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53019046 that fortunately didn't go ahead.


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    #3628
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Three extensions have been sought by the British govt. up to now. I don't really care who in the govt sought them, but the easiest deal in history is far from it.

    Even up to last month there was considerable debate on a fourth extension. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-53019046 that fortunately didn't go ahead.


    The circumstances and context are important even if you choose to ignore them.


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    #3629
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users Posts: 4,988 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    theological wrote: »
    The circumstances and context are important even if you choose to ignore them.

    The circumstances are the British people were repeatedly lied to by MPs that quickly disappeared when the vote was cast.

    Now, after a series of delays, controversies, multiple governments, multiple resignations, sackings, embarrassments, and extensions the British people are finally seeing the cost and effect of their actions. I for one am very happy that the bullsh*t peddled by Brexiters has finally been exposed and the economic cost of Brexit is realised.


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    #3630
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    The circumstances are the British people were repeatedly lied to by MPs that quickly disappeared when the vote was cast.

    Now, after a series of delays, controversies, multiple governments, multiple resignations, sackings, embarrassments, and extensions the British people are finally seeing the cost and effect of their actions. I for one am very happy that the bullsh*t peddled by Brexiters has finally been exposed and the economic cost of Brexit is realised.

    You may say that P but I live in England now and Brexiters generally will admit nothing when it comes to the cost of Brexit. They're utterly delusional.


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    #3631
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You may say that P but I live in England now and Brexiters generally will admit nothing when it comes to the cost of Brexit. They're utterly delusional.

    It's become like a religion at this stage. Devoid of sense and meaning, it only exists to justify their sense of entitlement and outrage.

    And the selfishness of some of these people is simply brobdingnagian. They're happy to see whole communities devastated for their xenophobia or illusions of sovereignty but the government needs to build a lorry park nearby or the EU decides they need to pay a pittance for a tourist visa and they lose their minds.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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