Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings

LuckyLloyd · 02-07-2020 11:12AM

setanta1984 wrote: »

Thanks for the couple of answers from people given to the question.

The general consensus from the 3 or so answers is keep them indefinitely. As I had assumed, and at least seems consistent with the constant push back and attacks on any kind of pro-easing posts.

I fundamentally disagree 100%, thinking and expecting the world to be restricted to this degree socially, economically, educationally until a completely unspecified point in the future (we can't confidently predict when a vaccine is globally widespread to even within years) is insanity in my opinion.

But I appreciate at least that some have made it clear that's what they believe and want.

While no hard deadlines have been set for vaccine availability, the commencement of manufacturing of various types and progression through early stages of the process in record time gives confidence that one will be widely available in early 2021. That is the rough timeframe hope casted in various articles and observations. The minute someone comes out and says that is definitely not happening, that various streams have failed and are back to the drawing board - that is the time to change policy.

If the Oxford stage three trial in Brazil and South Africa fails and they issue a negative report in September then it will certainly move the needle on the topic for me. At the very least, we will have to ask Public Health guidance to start considering what a half decade plan without a vaccine or treatment looks like.

If we have widespread availability of a vaccine from the back end of the coming winter then it's a single year for which we've seen social and economic interruption and / or inconvenience. I'm okay with that philosophically, balancing everything.

But there is no real basis for argument on this topic of 'I justify risky behaviours now to satisfy my self interest because the vaccine effort may fail in the future'. That doesn't stack up.

Duke of Url · 02-07-2020 11:23AM

Seen the following in the Independent today

A significant increase has been reported in the number of outbreaks of the virus in private homes since exiting lockdown, which has seen more people mixing as well as socialising.

So far there have been 728 outbreaks in private homes, higher than in nursing homes or hospitals.

Im sure there are conflicts in many households today

Some family members concerned about the lifting of restrictions and are trying to stay safe while others within the family are off socialising increasing the risk of bring the virus back home.

02-07-2020 11:26AM

Duke of Url wrote: »

Seen the following in the Independent today

Im sure there are conflicts in many households today

Some family members concerned about the lifting of restrictions and are trying to stay safe while others within the family are off socialising increasing the risk of bring the virus back home.

This does not align with the facts which are that cases are reducing. It may be the case that cases are being detected in the home than were been missed earlier as criteria to test was tighter.

setanta1984 · 02-07-2020 11:27AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

While no hard deadlines have been set for vaccine availability, the commencement of manufacturing of various types and progression through early stages of the process in record time gives confidence that one will be widely available in early 2021. That is the rough timeframe hope casted in various articles and observations. The minute someone comes out and says that is definitely not happening, that various streams have failed and are back to the drawing board - that is the time to change policy.

If the Oxford stage three trial in Brazil and South Africa fails and they issue a negative report in September then it will certainly move the needle on the topic for me. At the very least, we will have to ask Public Health guidance to start considering what a half decade plan without a vaccine or treatment looks like.

If we have widespread availability of a vaccine from the back end of the coming winter then it's a single year for which we've seen social and economic interruption and / or inconvenience. I'm okay with that philosophically, balancing everything.

But there is no real basis for argument on this topic of 'I justify risky behaviours now to satisfy my self interest because the vaccine effort may fail in the future'. That doesn't stack up.

That's a reasonable assessment, the only part we differ in really is the timescale we deem acceptable. You're happy with a year, I think September (coinciding with the academic year) is the limit, some will want no timescale.

Thanks for the response.

Spencer Brown · 02-07-2020 11:28AM

Duke of Url wrote: »

Seen the following in the Independent today

Im sure there are conflicts in many households today

Some family members concerned about the lifting of restrictions and are trying to stay safe while others within the family are off socialising increasing the risk of bring the virus back home.

More outbreaks in private homes, who'd have thought it? There is approx. 1.2 million households in Ireland.

setanta1984 · 02-07-2020 11:33AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I think you're being unfair here and you're conflating those who want to avoid easing restrictions entirely (which I'd agree is unreasonable) and those who want to keep restrictions such as limiting gathering sizes and social distancing (which IMO is reasonable and helps to ensure there is no need to go back to harsher restrictions in the future).

Yes, I was rolling those somewhat into one (based on the first few responses) - it's the basis of what I was trying to figure out with my question, where people fell between the two views you mention.

As I say the main point where I differ with the more reasonable second set of people you mention in your post is the timeframe we can (or should) maintain those restrictions.

Assetbacked · 02-07-2020 11:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

This does not align with the facts which are that cases are reducing. It may be the case that cases are being detected in the home than were been missed earlier as criteria to test was tighter.

Regardless of whether people are being tested or not, if people need hospitalisation they will need it regardless of being diagnosed with covid firstly. Considering hospital numbers are constantly dropping and are at levels which, by any standard, you could say we have the virus under control, the statement in the Indo does not line up with the data whatsoever, so I don't see what the basis for the concern is other than perhaps for fear of being held accountable for stating that "in the country it is under control, so get back to normal, the risk is from abroad".

02-07-2020 11:42AM

I don't think anybody wants the virus to rip though the population Texas style. I don't think anyone wants to go back to 500 cases a day either. I'm sure most well balanced people want us to find a vaccine.

However, the economy is crumbling all around us as we speak. There are plenty of companies already that have either gone completely bust, cut staff, reduced hours severely, reduced salaries etc. The Covid payments appear to be ending on 31st August. 40000+ construction workers are still receiving the Covid payment despite Construction sites been open for weeks now. Just yesterday, I posted about a cafe and another restaurant announcing they are closing permanently. Businesses are going to be going under on a daily basis now.

How long can we sustain this? I personally believe that the economic situation is going to start looking very desperate coming into winter. Very desperate as in act immediately.

While I hope there is a vaccine, I don't know that we can afford to just wait around hoping its going to come.
Whether we like it or not, finances always dictate how we handle things.
If I won the euromillions, I'd be sitting on a beach sipping a pina colada. But I didn't win. Instead I'm working a 9 - 5 for an average salary hoping that I don't lose my job/salary/hours.

LuckyLloyd · 02-07-2020 12:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anybody wants the virus to rip though the population Texas style. I don't think anyone wants to go back to 500 cases a day either. I'm sure most well balanced people want us to find a vaccine.

However, the economy is crumbling all around us as we speak. There are plenty of companies already that have either gone completely bust, cut staff, reduced hours severely, reduced salaries etc. The Covid payments appear to be ending on 31st August. 40000+ construction workers are still receiving the Covid payment despite Construction sites been open for weeks now. Just yesterday, I posted about a cafe and another restaurant announcing they are closing permanently. Businesses are going to be going under on a daily basis now.

How long can we sustain this? I personally believe that the economic situation is going to start looking very desperate coming into winter. Very desperate as in act immediately.

While I hope there is a vaccine, I don't know that we can afford to just wait around hoping its going to come.
Whether we like it or not, finances always dictate how we handle things.
If I won the euromillions, I'd be sitting on a beach sipping a pina colada. But I didn't win. Instead I'm working a 9 - 5 for an average salary hoping that I don't lose my job/salary/hours.

Probably for a lot longer than people think. The ECB can print if the will is there to print and an agreement can be reached on putting the costs involved into a long term low interest bond borne collectively across the eurozone. If cases pick up again across Europe in a widespread fashion in parallel to flu season that will may be fostered in short order.

As regards the economy as a whole, not all sectors are of equal importance and consideration. What needs to be protected are sectors that require huge capital investment and technical expertise to be set up and be viable. When the second wave comes there will be a lot of bars, cafes, retail, etc businesses hanging on by a thread that are wiped out. This is very upsetting for those involved (owners, staff and customers) but they are the types of businesses that have relatively low barriers to entry and can be started again when we move past this whole ****emare.

The screaming about the economy on this thread treats everything the same. That is incorrect.

Seanachai · 02-07-2020 12:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anybody wants the virus to rip though the population Texas style. I don't think anyone wants to go back to 500 cases a day either. I'm sure most well balanced people want us to find a vaccine.

However, the economy is crumbling all around us as we speak. There are plenty of companies already that have either gone completely bust, cut staff, reduced hours severely, reduced salaries etc. The Covid payments appear to be ending on 31st August. 40000+ construction workers are still receiving the Covid payment despite Construction sites been open for weeks now. Just yesterday, I posted about a cafe and another restaurant announcing they are closing permanently. Businesses are going to be going under on a daily basis now.

How long can we sustain this? I personally believe that the economic situation is going to start looking very desperate coming into winter. Very desperate as in act immediately.

While I hope there is a vaccine, I don't know that we can afford to just wait around hoping its going to come.
Whether we like it or not, finances always dictate how we handle things.
If I won the euromillions, I'd be sitting on a beach sipping a pina colada. But I didn't win. Instead I'm working a 9 - 5 for an average salary hoping that I don't lose my job/salary/hours.

We're deactivating a fair few user accounts for our customers in the last two weeks, I feel bad for those people. Maybe they'll move on to better things but I know how tough it can be between jobs especially if there's a bad recession.

hmmm · 02-07-2020 12:57PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

Tell me on what basis social distancing is still required in Ireland where our hospitals have plenty of capacity to deal with an increase in hospitalisations, daily numbers are now pretty much at zero and TH has said 6 weeks ago community transmission is dead?

The virus only transmits in the community where it is in the community and it is not currently in the community. The risk is from abroad.

It is in the community. The only reason it is not spreading widely is because we are suppressing it.

We don't have "plenty of capacity" to deal with a virus which spreads exponentially if given the chance.

We can drop the restrictions entirely, which would probably guarantee another long-term lockdown was required in a few weeks or months, or we can do 90% of what we would normally do with some restrictions and personal changes and hope to keep this going until we have a vaccine. Many businesses will be able to hang on if we have partial restrictions for a few months, but another lockdown or repeated cycles of opening and lockdowns would be a disaster.

facehugger99 · 02-07-2020 01:35PM

hmmm wrote: »

It is in the community. The only reason it is not spreading widely is because we are suppressing it.

We don't have "plenty of capacity" to deal with a virus which spreads exponentially if given the chance.

We can drop the restrictions entirely, which would probably guarantee another long-term lockdown was required in a few weeks or months, or we can do 90% of what we would normally do with some restrictions and personal changes and hope to keep this going until we have a vaccine. Many businesses will be able to hang on if we have partial restrictions for a few months, but another lockdown or repeated cycles of opening and lockdowns would be a disaster.

What planet are you on?

We are looking at a €30bn deficit this year alone.

That is not sustainable until a vaccine, which might never appear, is found.

90%? - Nearly half a million people still receiving the emergency payment. Massive swades of the tourism, hospitality, construction, business and education sectors which are either fully closed or only allowed to open with such draconian limitations that they cannot turn a profit.

You obviously haven't a clue what's going on in the real-world judging by the nonsense you post on this forum. Happy to sit in your fear-cave and wag your finger at everyone who wants to get back to some form of normality

MickeyLeari · 02-07-2020 01:36PM

I am not a fan of SF in the slightest but now they are looking for Michelle O’Neill’s head for attending a funeral and hugging a Down syndrome boy.

Barely a word (rightfully one my opinion)!a few weeks back in respect to the funeral of the Guard.

hmmm · 02-07-2020 01:59PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

You obviously haven't a clue what's going on in the real-world judging by the nonsense you post on this forum. Happy to sit in your fear-cave and wag your finger at everyone who wants to get back to some form of normality

The person living in the real-world is me.

You seem to think we can simply let this virus rip through the population. Not happening. We will have restrictions until we have a vaccine.

But keep posting your inane calls for reopening everything if it gives you something to do.

facehugger99 · 02-07-2020 02:10PM

hmmm wrote: »

We will have restrictions until we have a vaccine.

It's good you've exposed the dumbness of your argument into a bite-sized piece.

It's normally so buried beneath your usual obfuscations as to be difficult to decipher.

I have some news for you. There may never be a vaccine. While you're locked away in your fear-cave, on full pay I've no doubt, the rest of society will need to get on with things if we want to have anything to get on with.

Assetbacked · 02-07-2020 02:15PM

hmmm wrote: »

It is in the community. The only reason it is not spreading widely is because we are suppressing it.

We don't have "plenty of capacity" to deal with a virus which spreads exponentially if given the chance.

We can drop the restrictions entirely, which would probably guarantee another long-term lockdown was required in a few weeks or months, or we can do 90% of what we would normally do with some restrictions and personal changes and hope to keep this going until we have a vaccine. Many businesses will be able to hang on if we have partial restrictions for a few months, but another lockdown or repeated cycles of opening and lockdowns would be a disaster.

Where do I start with this nonsense claim, being constantly rehashed and completely lacking any basis in reality.

https://covid19ireland-geohive.hub.arcgis.com/

Holohan 6 weeks ago noting it was extinguished in the community; 6 weeks ago! The numbers have gotten even better since then! https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-community-transmission-5102798-May2020/

Either accept the facts or admit you just have your own personal fears about reopening (fair enough btw, I completely understand) but please do not make ignorant statements about the virus in Ireland.

MickeyLeari · 02-07-2020 02:58PM

Jaysus - https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0702/1150954-live-register-figures/

Over a million people continued to depend on the State for income support in June, according to the latest Live Register figures from the Central Statistics Office.

The CSO said that the seasonally adjusted Live Register figure in June was 213,700, down 14,200 from May.

The CSO stressed that the Live Register figures do not capture emergency income support schemes including the Covid-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment (PUP) or the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme (TWSS) introduced earlier this year to address the Covid-19 emergency.

In the last week of June, according to the CSO, a total of 438,933 people were receiving the PUP, while a further 382,018 people were being supported under the TWSS.

When the Live Register, the TWSS and the PUP are factored in, a total of 1,002,470 people were fully or partially dependent on the state for income support.

Dickie10 · 02-07-2020 03:02PM

as regards the pub i think now NPHET and government should come to their senses and see the madness the food thing is causing, and open all pubs that want to open from this Monday. Lets just say this out loud so we see just how crazy the situation is..... Gardai patroling pubs to make sure people are eating food and not staying more than an hour and a half in a pub. Just let that idea sink in there lads. a fortnight after a Garda was murdered on our streets. lets call this charade off now before anyone in the world cops it.

nelly17 · 02-07-2020 03:16PM

Dickie10 wrote: »

as regards the pub i think now NPHET and government should come to their senses and see the madness the food thing is causing, and open all pubs that want to open from this Monday. Lets just say this out loud so we see just how crazy the situation is..... Gardai patroling pubs to make sure people are eating food and not staying more than an hour and a half in a pub. Just let that idea sink in there lads. a fortnight after a Garda was murdered on our streets. lets call this charade off now before anyone in the world cops it.

I never got the food thing was that just for licencing or was there some scientific basis for it? Because I cant for the life of me see the relavence

Benimar · 02-07-2020 03:25PM

nelly17 wrote: »

I never got the food thing was that just for licencing or was there some scientific basis for it? Because I cant for the life of me see the relavence

It’s licensing.

Pubs don’t open until July 20th. Food establishments opened on June 29th.

If the establishment doesn’t serve food it’s acting as a pub and shouldn’t be open basically.

Publicans argued to be allowed open if they could act as restaurants. If they can’t they should be closed until Phase 4.

Hurrache · 02-07-2020 03:30PM

MickeyLeari wrote: »

I am not a fan of SF in the slightest but now they are looking for Michelle O’Neill’s head for ......hugging a Down syndrome boy.

FFS. And people whinge that realists about the virus are making the poor public scared.

hmmm · 02-07-2020 03:33PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

I have some news for you. There may never be a vaccine. While you're locked away in your fear-cave

You know, the only one who seems to locked in a "fear cave" here is yourself. You're thinking of an extreme worst-case scenario if you are worried about never getting a vaccine.

Just wondering because I have my suspicions as to your motives for looking for herd immunity and mass suffering. Will you take a vaccine if it is made available?

hmmm · 02-07-2020 03:36PM

nelly17 wrote: »

I never got the food thing was that just for licencing or was there some scientific basis for it? Because I cant for the life of me see the relavence

The phases are staggered so that if there is a spike in cases we can identify where the spikes are occurring. This phase was only supposed to allow restaurants to open (not pubs), but the vitners asked for pubs who served food to be included. The duration of exposure does seem to matter a lot when it comes to spread, so in a restaurant you are typically in and out relatively quickly, but people can spend hours in a pub - that's also why there is supposed to be a limit on time.

greensheep777 · 02-07-2020 03:42PM

Benimar wrote: »

Pubs don’t open until July 20th. Food establishments opened on June 29th.

If the establishment doesn’t serve food it’s acting as a pub and shouldn’t be open basically.

Did the government ever provide any scientific basis for why being in a restaurant is seemingly low risk, but being in a pub is not? Does the virus go around checking everyone's had a substantial meal?
If it's concerns about people getting drunk - both serve alcohol. Licensed premises have *always* been required to only serve people who are above legal age, and not already intoxicated.

hmmm · 02-07-2020 03:49PM

greensheep777 wrote: »

Did the government ever provide any scientific basis for why being in a restaurant is seemingly low risk, but being in a pub is not? Does the virus go around checking everyone's had a substantial meal?
If it's concerns about people getting drunk - both serve alcohol. Licensed premises have *always* been required to only serve people who are above legal age, and not already intoxicated.

There are multiple worldwide examples of pubs (and nightclubs etc) being the source of large-scale outbreaks It seems to be something to do with the type of environment - indoors, lots of people mixing, loud music so people having to speak loudly (projecting virus), perhaps alcohol and lowered social inhibitions.

Restaurants have also had spread (they are not "low risk" unfortunately), but not to the same extent as pub-type locations. I'm speculating - you're typically sat at a table with a small group, you're not there for very long, alcohol is accompanied with a meal so perhaps there's less mixing.

I don't think the quiet country pub with 4 or 5 people drinking is really a big deal. It's the pubs in cities and towns where there are large numbers which are the real risk.

In my opinion we will be lucky if we do have to go back on opening pubs. Publicans need to be very careful and very responsible because it won't take much to make the health people nervous.

quokula · 02-07-2020 03:50PM

greensheep777 wrote: »

Did the government ever provide any scientific basis for why being in a restaurant is seemingly low risk, but being in a pub is not? Does the virus go around checking everyone's had a substantial meal?
If it's concerns about people getting drunk - both serve alcohol. Licensed premises have *always* been required to only serve people who are above legal age, and not already intoxicated.

I'd have thought this was obvious no?

In restaurants you have people sitting with their own group, staying at a table, not interacting with any other customers and leaving as soon as they're done eating.

In pubs you have people getting drunk, mingling with strangers, potentially staying for hours. You can try to force people who attend pubs to behave they would in a restaurant, but that would be pretty difficult to enforce once people have had a few drinks and it puts staff in a difficult and potentially dangerous position. At least with the enforcement of a substantial meal you're laying out the expected behaviour really clearly before anyone can enter.

joeguevara · 02-07-2020 03:55PM

greensheep777 wrote: »

Did the government ever provide any scientific basis for why being in a restaurant is seemingly low risk, but being in a pub is not? Does the virus go around checking everyone's had a substantial meal?
If it's concerns about people getting drunk - both serve alcohol. Licensed premises have *always* been required to only serve people who are above legal age, and not already intoxicated.

Well how many restaurants have you ever heard of where people are so belligerent that they refuse to leave the premises unless they get another chicken Caesar salad, start a fight with someone they haven't seen before after eating 10 chicken chasseurs or, starting hugging someone they have never met after copious amounts of knickerbocker glories. That is the difference.

greensheep777 · 02-07-2020 05:15PM

quokula wrote: »

I'd have thought this was obvious no?

In restaurants you have people sitting with their own group, staying at a table, not interacting with any other customers and leaving as soon as they're done eating.

In pubs you have people getting drunk, mingling with strangers, potentially staying for hours. You can try to force people who attend pubs to behave they would in a restaurant, but that would be pretty difficult to enforce once people have had a few drinks and it puts staff in a difficult and potentially dangerous position. At least with the enforcement of a substantial meal you're laying out the expected behaviour really clearly before anyone can enter.

But these pubs are open because they are operating *as* restaurants. They're still pubs.

CruelSummer · 02-07-2020 05:21PM

Are any of the journalists attending the next press conference with the CMO going to hold NPHET and the HSE to account?
Here are a few questions that need answering:

1. Why is there still a delay getting results from Covid tests in this country when the numbers being tested have reduced dramatically and rapid results ensure our safety and protect against mass future outbreaks?
2. Why have there been no recommendations given to Airports - why don't we test all arrivals, screen, have an agreement with airlines operating here to provide rapid contact tracing details to the Dept of Health for all passengers. Greece is doing something similar to this and is working successfully to date.
3. Spain also does temperature checks and quick physical exam - this is a quick and effective way of screening symptomatic passengers. They also have an app for tourists, and forms that Ryanair must distribute to passengers. It all sounds much better than our pretend 2 week quarantine. They strictly enforce mask wearing indoors, and have patrols of beaches to ensure social distancing. I don't see how families going to say the islands there for a summer break would be any more exposed to Covid than here.
4. Why did Holohan want a blanket travel ban and launch a media campaign to promote it - which was in blatant disagreement with Leo Varadkar a few days previously. I shudder to think of the job losses and effect to our island should this come into effect.

hmmm · 02-07-2020 05:30PM

Netherlands has now completed it's re-opening plan. What is left is the general social distancing rules which will apply for the longer term (auto translated):

https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2020/06/24/per-1-juli-15-meter-blijft-norm

As of July 1: 1.5 meters remains the norm
News item | 06/24/2020 | 19:09

Once again we can take a step forward in the corona approach. We start a new chapter and move from an intelligent lockdown to rules room. General rules for inside and outside. These remain necessary, because the corona virus has certainly not disappeared.

Read the new rules as of July 1, 2020 in simple language .

We have started the way out of the corona crisis with the following basic rules, which are still in force:

Do you have any complaints? Stay at home and have yourself tested as soon as possible.
Keep 1.5 meters away from others.
Wash your hands often.
Work at home as much as possible.
Avoid busy places and travel outside rush hour as much as possible.
That approach works. The peak of infections is over, we have got the virus under control. We can conduct extensive testing and conduct intensive source and contact research. This enables us to make quick and targeted adjustments and to prevent the virus from spreading where the virus flares up.

Keeping your distance gives space to each other
It is now critical to remain alert and vigilant. Those who have complaints stay at home and have themselves tested . Because only then can we preserve the space we have earned together. From 1 July, the following general rules apply for indoors and outdoors. Rules that do justice to what we now know about the spread of the virus.

General rules for indoor activities
We keep 1.5 meters away from others.
Maximum 100 people per room with fixed seats (excluding staff).
No maximum number of people under the following conditions: fixed seats, reservation and health check in advance.
In shops, museums, libraries and other locations with flow of visitors, 1.5 meters away is the rule (locations themselves ensure compliance with this rule). There is no maximum number of people.
General rules for outdoor activities
We keep 1.5 meters away from others.
Maximum 250 persons (excluding staff).
The catering industry always works with a fixed seat.
No maximum number of people under the following conditions: fixed seats, a reservation and a health check in advance.
In zoos, amusement parks and other outdoor locations with flow of visitors, 1.5 meters away is the rule (locations themselves ensure compliance with this rule). There is no maximum number of people.
Transport
In public transport, wearing a non-medical mask is mandatory. All seats in bus, train, tram and metro are available. It remains important to avoid rush hour.
For other transport from A to B (such as taxis, passenger vans and coaches): a reservation and health check in advance and a non-medical mask are mandatory.
In the car (and other private transport) the following applies: a mask is recommended when several people travel in one car and they do not belong to the same household.
In other transport, the rule is provisional: keep 1.5 meters away.
Children and youth
Children up to and including 12 years do not have to keep 1.5 meters between themselves and adults. This also applies to childcare and primary education.
Young people up to the age of 18 do not have to keep a distance of 1.5 meters. This applies to all pupils (regardless of age) in secondary schools, who reopen fully after the summer holidays; the 1.5 meter between student and teaching staff remains in force.
As of the new academic year, more educational activities may again take place at MBO institutions, colleges and universities. Here students keep 1.5 meters away from others.
Exceptions
The rule is that everyone keeps 1.5 meters away. However, in some situations this is not possible and the 1.5 meter may be temporarily released. It's about:
people who belong to 1 household;
contact between those in need and their escorts;
people with contact professions (such as hairdressers, masseurs and driving instructors);
athletes (indoor and outdoor), actors and dancers.
Chants, loud singing or screaming in a group is not allowed.
For choirs and song ensembles, rehearsal and performance become possible again. Under what conditions, RIVM will provide advice on this in the very short term.
Discos and night clubs remain closed until September 1.
Finally
If the situation permits and the virus remains under control, discos and nightclubs can open in the long term. This will be reviewed around 1 September. In the meantime, work is being carried out worldwide on medicines and vaccines against the coronavirus. Ultimately, this should lead to the lifting of the general rules, such as keeping a distance of 1.5 meters. But as long as the virus is there, we will have to follow the general rules . Together we persevere. Because we can only keep corona under control, together.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IV - Read OP for Mod Warnings