Covid19 Part XVIII-25,473 in ROI(1,736 deaths) 5,760 in NI (551 deaths)(30/06)Read OP

stephenjmcd · 22-06-2020 05:45PM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't think I would agree with that. By going to an airport you're mingling with a lot of people from here there and everywhere. Currently at the moment in Ireland if you're standing beside someone in a shopping centre the chances of them having Covid are minuscule, they aren't comparable to an airport setting as a potential site of infection . And you might share an aisle of a shop with someone, but you won't have to potentially sit in close proximity to them in a recycled air filled pressurised tube for a few hours. Maybe, that's all cool for you for you can't claim the levels of risk are similar.

You do realise you've to wear a mask as soon as you enter the airport, on the flight (except when eating or drinking) and then not taking it off until you get to your destination.

Modern aircraft have HEPA filtration systems that make cabin air as safe as a hospital operating theatre.

There also haven't been any clusters linked to aircraft in this country so the risk is very very minimal.

Its a personal choice but theres alot of mitigation.

Tim Robbins · 22-06-2020 05:46PM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

Are you suggesting that obese, diabetic, older people, people with cardiovascular disease etc who are being hospitalised and dying in massive numbers did not take precautions and asthmatics did? Your logic makes zero sense.

We don't have enough data. I know as soon as I heard the thing described like an asthma attack and pressure on the lungs I was freaked. What makes it harder is the element of the unknown. We hear a lot of "pre existing medical conditions" and sometimes not much more than that. Are they talking about someone who had terminal cancer or someone prone to belters of asthma attacks.

The other issue with asthma is that there is a broad range. Some people get it very mild. Some people very bad. Some get it and smoke which makes it worse. Others have it bad but use fitness to keep it at bay.

There are too many dimensions and not enough data in my view to feel safe.

Would really like the government to introduce something where there was a slot for elderly and a slot for people with medical conditions of all ages.

I went to a shop for the first time in four months on Sunday and was completely freaked. I stood outside and ask the shop assistant to help me out.

phater phagan · 22-06-2020 05:47PM

The whole point of the lockdown was to bring the cases down to a minimum. The ultimate objective is to reach Herd Immunity. Some countries - Sweden and Britain and USA - tried it too soon and it had disastrous results. The medics etc knew that, but that is what we are envisioning here eventually. Lockdown fatigue is becoming forceful an impetus to that end.

ACitizenErased · 22-06-2020 05:48PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

We don't have enough data. I know as soon as I heard the thing described like an asthma attack and pressure on the lungs I was freaked.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2213-2600%2820%2930167-3

Asthma accounted for less than 1% hospitalisations in Chinese cities whereas COPD accounted for 5-10%, diabetes for up to 24%... This fear mongering is ridiculous. You need to chill out.

Arghus · 22-06-2020 05:48PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

No issue here. Why not ?
If I want to book a holiday I will

Personally, I wouldn't be dying to go to go an airport filled with lots of people from different countries anytime soon, or sitting on a plane for a couple of hours - getting beautiful lungfuls of the same air everyone else is using, or hanging around busy tourist spots which I'm pretty sure will be the petri-dishes of any further spread of the virus.

stephenjmcd · 22-06-2020 05:51PM

Arghus wrote: »

Personally, I wouldn't be dying to go to go an airport filled with lots of people from different countries anytime soon, or sitting on a plane for a couple of hours - getting beautiful lungfuls of the same air everyone else is using, or hanging around busy tourist spots which I'm pretty sure will be the petri-dishes of any further spread of the virus.

See my other post with regard to HEPA filtration & face masks having to be worn. Not sure what extra hassle that is as you mention in an earlier post.

Its not near as bad as the "lungfuls of the same air" that you describe.

Like i said in my other post its a personal choice but if you look up the measures in place it couldn't be much safer

Eod100 · 22-06-2020 05:53PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

You do realise you've to wear a mask as soon as you enter the airport, on the flight (except when eating or drinking) and then not taking it off until you get to your destination.

Modern aircraft have HEPA filtration systems that make cabin air as safe as a hospital operating theatre.

There also haven't been any clusters linked to aircraft in this country so the risk is very very minimal.

I know that line is used by the aircraft industry but I think it's a bit dubious. As in hospital theatre doesn't hold what could potentially be a few hundred people in it in close proximity for a few hours.

There's also been very reduced travel all this time, about 1% of usual levels. I guess travel from a region or contact with a positive case could account for any cases.

I'm not sure would they associate it with aircrafts or say public transport. It might be considered of unknown origin/community transmission if they couldn't narrow it down to being on a certain flight with someone.

ShyMets · 22-06-2020 05:55PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

We don't have enough data. I know as soon as I heard the thing described like an asthma attack and pressure on the lungs I was freaked.

I understand feelings. i'm mildly Asthmatic and a smoker. (Please don't judge:)) I have both a Releaver and Preventer inhaler.

I've been reading up a lot about Asthmatics and their risk to Covid. Much of what I've read over the last month has relaxed me greatly as Asthmatics to dont appear to be higher risk.

In saying that I'm still taking sensible precautions

stephenjmcd · 22-06-2020 05:56PM

Eod100 wrote: »

I know that line is used by the aircraft industry but I think it's a bit dubious. As in hospital theatre doesn't hold what could potentially be a few hundred people in it in close proximity for a few hours.

There's also been very reduced travel all this time, about 1% of usual levels. I guess travel from a region or contact with a positive case could account for any cases.

I'm not sure would they associate it with aircrafts or say public transport. It might be considered of unknown origin/community transmission if they couldn't narrow it down to being on a certain flight with someone.

You can do your own research on HEPA to see you for yourself if you dont want to take the airline industry on word. I've done mine and wouldn't have an issue getting on a flight. Looking forward to my next one.

it's fairly easy to notice if you've got a high amount of cases which just so happen to all have been on the same flight.

Icantthinkof1 · 22-06-2020 05:59PM

Tim Robbins wrote: »

We don't have enough data. I know as soon as I heard the thing described like an asthma attack and pressure on the lungs I was freaked.

I can completely relate to this. I envy people who have never experienced an asthma attack and the absolute feeling of terror that goes along with it.
As you said as well I would like if the HSE released data as you mentioned about what the underlying conditions were for those cases that required hospitalisations.
If I saw for myself that asthma was down the list that would reassure me somewhat
Also @ACitizenErased thank you for sharing those links I found them helpful

Eod100 · 22-06-2020 06:01PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

You can do your own research on HEPA to see you for yourself if you dont want to take the airline industry on word. I've done mine and wouldn't have an issue getting on a flight. Looking forward to my next one.

it's fairly easy to notice if you've got a high amount of cases which just so happen to all have been on the same flight.

I just think their description isn't really comparable. It might be the same equipment used but it's a bit of a stretch to say it's as safe as. Especially when operating theatre will be far closer to sterile environment, staff wearing gowns, PPE even with new restrictions for airline industry. Seems like apples and oranges.

I think when travel is at 1% of its usual flight levels and even then capacity on those flights lower than usual it's a bit early to know for sure.

I'm not saying I think it will be a massive risk just can personally see why OP would feel that way. Like I said in other post it comes down to personal responsibility and accepting the risk you're comfortable with.

22-06-2020 06:01PM

Eod100 wrote: »

I know that line is used by the aircraft industry but I think it's a bit dubious. As in hospital theatre doesn't hold what could potentially be a few hundred people in it in close proximity for a few hours.

There's also been very reduced travel all this time, about 1% of usual levels. I guess travel from a region or contact with a positive case could account for any cases.

I'm not sure would they associate it with aircrafts or say public transport. It might be considered of unknown origin/community transmission if they couldn't narrow it down to being on a certain flight with someone.

The HEPA filters on planes are as good as are used in top end operating theatres according to Luke O’Neill, listening to him on Newstalk. And he is pretty conservative in his views on masks etc....certainly not one for the release of all restrictions. Says that the air on planes is not any risk

Airports are pretty empty, people wear masks religiously now, and the destinations are far better value than Ireland (with more places open). So I’m more than happy to travel (and suck up the quarantine on the way home, which is easy as I am WFH). Heading off in mid July

Boggles · 22-06-2020 06:07PM

There is no published evidence the virus has weakened. Every University with an adequate infectious disease wing is monitoring it.

The lowering death rates in the States is due to the shielding of the vulnerable and a shift in demographics.

Florida

The Florida Department of Health reported 3,494 new cases of coronavirus on Sunday, bringing the state total to 97,291. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis has said that cases are "shifting in a radical direction" toward populations in their 20s and 30s.

DeSantis said Friday that the median age was 37 for newly diagnosed coronavirus infections over the last week. In the state, 62% of new cases for the week of June 7 are under 45 years old, he said.

Also it's not just "sneaky" China creatively hiding corona deaths, there is quite a few at it.

Bangladesh have 115,000 cases with only 1500 deaths? Like fúck they do.

owlbethere · 22-06-2020 06:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The HEPA filters on planes are as good as are used in top end operating theatres according to Luke O’Neill, listening to him on Newstalk. And he is pretty conservative in his views on masks etc....certainly not one for the release of all restrictions. Says that the air on planes is not any risk

Airports are pretty empty, people wear masks religiously now, and the destinations are far better value than Ireland (with more places open). So I’m more than happy to travel (and suck up the quarantine on the way home, which is easy as I am WFH). Heading off in mid July

Are these HEPA filters on new planes? I find shorter flights on smaller planes dreadful. Like flying to Europe with Ryanair or airlingus. I find the cabins are so hot and stuffy. I can't imagine the the air being circulated well on them smaller/older planes. Big planes for long haul are better.

Eod100 · 22-06-2020 06:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The HEPA filters on planes are as good as are used in top end operating theatres according to Luke O’Neill, listening to him on Newstalk. And he is pretty conservative in his views on masks etc....certainly not one for the release of all restrictions. Says that the air on planes is not any risk

Airports are pretty empty, people wear masks religiously now, and the destinations are far better value than Ireland (with more places open). So I’m more than happy to travel (and suck up the quarantine on the way home, which is easy as I am WFH). Heading off in mid July

Ah yeah, they're similar equipment. I just thought their assertion was that planes were as safe as operating theatre as a result was a stretch as completely different settings.

That's not to say I think planes are very risky, more the assertion has yet to be tested properly with scale of travel as before so seems more like a marketing thing rather than scientific.

Arghus · 22-06-2020 06:13PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

See my other post with regard to HEPA filtration & face masks having to be worn. Not sure what extra hassle that is as you mention in an earlier post.

Its not near as bad as the "lungfuls of the same air" that you describe.

Like i said in my other post its a personal choice but if you look up the measures in place it couldn't be much safer

It's not near as bad, perhaps, but it's still not perfectly safe either. Filtration systems or not there's still going to be a certain amount of air going around being exhaled and inhaled. It's not all instantly whisked away immediately into the filtration system, surely it has to circulate a little in the cabin - unless, of course, everyone is hooked up to some breathing apparatus.

They've put measure in place to make it safer, maybe, indeed, as safe as it can be, but that doesn't really make inherently safe, it just diminishes risk - it doesn't remove it.

And while there's no cases - if you say so, do we know for sure if there actually is literally no reported clusters linked to air-travel? - linked to air-travel, there is more than a lot linked to tourist destinations themselves. Skiing trips to Italy and Austria in February/March in particular. I, personally, would be a little reluctant to insert myself into a comparable situation like that again with haste. I'd be giving those potential locations a wide berth for a few months at least. Once people start moving around and crossing borders again in large numbers surely the chances of a resurgence of the spread of the virus goes up accordingly. Now, maybe that won't happen - maybe we'll are be incredibly fortunate. But I'd rather wait to see how that pans out - I can always go on holidays in six months or next year - than to just say fck it and hope for the best, without really knowing the full picture.

But, like you say, it's a personal choice and no-one, let's be honest, is really here to have their opinion changed on just about anything.

Micky 32 · 22-06-2020 06:16PM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't think I would agree with that. By going to an airport you're mingling with a lot of people from here there and everywhere. Currently at the moment in Ireland if you're standing beside someone in a shopping centre the chances of them having Covid are minuscule, they aren't comparable to an airport setting as a potential site of infection . And you might share an aisle of a shop with someone, but you won't have to potentially sit in close proximity to them in a recycled air filled pressurised tube for a few hours. Maybe, that's all cool for you for you can't claim the levels of risk are similar.

Airports now have a lot of protocols in place now including social distancing and travellers only in airports.

City Buses, the Luas, The Dart , trains and Bus Eireann touring through the country is no less of a risk than flying to an equally virus supressed country.

It’s obvious you haven’t a clue how the air works in a plane. It’s far cleaner being on a plane for 2 hours than on a bus for 2 hours

It’s funny how we haven’t heard stories of cabin crew and pilots all being struck down with the virus.

lukas8888 · 22-06-2020 06:22PM

Arghus wrote: »

It's not near as bad, perhaps, but it's still not perfectly safe either. Filtration systems or not there's still going to be a certain amount of air going around being exhaled and inhaled. It's not all instantly whisked away immediately into the filtration system, surely it has to circulate a little in the cabin - unless, of course, everyone is hooked up to some breathing apparatus.

They've put measure in place to make it safer, maybe, indeed, as safe as it can be, but that doesn't really make inherently safe, it just diminishes risk - it doesn't remove it.

And while there's no cases - if you say so, do we know for sure if there actually is literally no reported clusters linked to air-travel? - linked to air-travel, there is more than a lot linked to tourist destinations themselves. Skiing trips to Italy and Austria in February/March in particular. I, personally, would be a little reluctant to insert myself into a comparable situation like that again with haste. I'd be giving those potential locations a wide berth for a few months at least. Once people start moving around and crossing borders again in large numbers surely the chances of a resurgence of the spread of the virus goes up accordingly. Now, maybe that won't happen - maybe we'll are be incredibly fortunate. But I'd rather wait to see how that pans out - I can always go on holidays in six months or next year - than to just say fck it and hope for the best, without really knowing the full picture.

But, like you say, it's a personal choice and no-one, let's be honest, is really here to have their opinion changed on just about anything.

Can anyone come up with a logical explanation of how the assorted canary islands has had very few infections despite not locking down until mid March,
and was packed with thousands of tourists from all over Europe.

Away With The Fairies · 22-06-2020 06:23PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The HEPA filters on planes are as good as are used in top end operating theatres according to Luke O’Neill, listening to him on Newstalk. And he is pretty conservative in his views on masks etc....certainly not one for the release of all restrictions. Says that the air on planes is not any risk

Airports are pretty empty, people wear masks religiously now, and the destinations are far better value than Ireland (with more places open). So I’m more than happy to travel (and suck up the quarantine on the way home, which is easy as I am WFH). Heading off in mid July

If HEPA filters are really so good in hospitals, how come MRSA infections are so easily picked up in hospitals after surgery?

22-06-2020 06:24PM

Why don’t all those people so worried about the Irish economy, and lucky enough to be in a position to have a holiday actually stay home for holidays this year?

Drumpot · 22-06-2020 06:24PM

Arghus wrote: »

It's not near as bad, perhaps, but it's still not perfectly safe either. Filtration systems or not there's still going to be a certain amount of air going around being exhaled and inhaled. It's not all instantly whisked away immediately into the filtration system, surely it has to circulate a little in the cabin - unless, of course, everyone is hooked up to some breathing apparatus.

They've put measure in place to make it safer, maybe, indeed, as safe as it can be, but that doesn't really make inherently safe, it just diminishes risk - it doesn't remove it.

And while there's no cases - if you say so, do we know for sure if there actually is literally no reported clusters linked to air-travel? - linked to air-travel, there is more than a lot linked to tourist destinations themselves. Skiing trips to Italy and Austria in February/March in particular. I, personally, would be a little reluctant to insert myself into a comparable situation like that again with haste. I'd be giving those potential locations a wide berth for a few months at least. Once people start moving around and crossing borders again in large numbers surely the chances of a resurgence of the spread of the virus goes up accordingly. Now, maybe that won't happen - maybe we'll are be incredibly fortunate. But I'd rather wait to see how that pans out - I can always go on holidays in six months or next year - than to just say fck it and hope for the best, without really knowing the full picture.

But, like you say, it's a personal choice and no-one, let's be honest, is really here to have their opinion changed on just about anything.

Agreed.

I’m quite happy to let other people prove that flying is safe and not really a significant factor in the spread. You always sacrifice the pawns first in chess :pac:

22-06-2020 06:24PM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

If HEPA filters are really so good in hospitals, how come MRSA infections are so easily picked up in hospitals after surgery?

Hand hygiene

Away With The Fairies · 22-06-2020 06:26PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hand hygiene

With a surgeon who has scrubbed their hands and dressed in operating gowns and who wears surgical gloves.

ACitizenErased · 22-06-2020 06:26PM

This thread is full of what-if'ers for the last few days

22-06-2020 06:27PM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

With a surgeon who has scrubbed their hands and dressed in operating gowns and who wears surgical gloves.

Strangely enough most of the time spent in hospital is not in theatre

Arghus · 22-06-2020 06:28PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

Airports now have a lot of protocols in place now including social distancing and travellers only in airports.

City Buses, the Luas, The Dart , trains and Bus Eireann touring through the country is no less of a risk than flying to an equally virus supressed country.

It’s obvious you haven’t a clue how the air works in a plane. It’s far cleaner being on a plane for 2 hours than on a bus for 2 hours

Guilty as charged, I do not have a professional background in airline air filtration systems. Are you an expert? I'm always keen to know more about subjects I'm discussing. Any resources you can supply would be greatly appreciated.

The plane ride itself is only part of it though. There's the airport before and after and the destination. If you're comparing it to a bus ride - I don't stand around in the bus station for hours and hours with total strangers from all over, both before and after I get my bus. Well, not usually anyway.

And plus, the role of people going on holidays in Febuary/March in contributing to the initial spread of the virus is well known. I myself know two people who got it on holidays in Austria. I would be more concerned about that aspect than the actual plane flight.

Pablo Escobar · 22-06-2020 06:31PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

It’s funny how we haven’t heard stories of cabin crew and pilots all being struck down with the virus.

There certainly have been reports of cabin crew getting the virus before air traffic basically stopped. But “struck down” is a bit of an exaggeration. Your average cabin crew member would not be at major risk from this. They might have a family member that may be though.

Plumbthedepths · 22-06-2020 06:32PM

ACitizenErased wrote: »

This thread is full of what-if'ers for the last few days

They seem to be seeking out the worst case scenario and attempting to out do one other on how scary things are.
What really amuses me is the number who encounter random coughers. I never stopped working throughout this, regularly in contact with many people have yet though to meet someone coughing everywhere and being 'greedy' . Wtf has greedy got to do with coughing?
I genuinely am shocked some of the posters here can get out of their beds each day. Honestly the terror they have subjected themselves sounds like a miserable existence.

eagle eye · 22-06-2020 06:34PM

Pablo Escobar wrote:

There certainly have been reports of cabin crew getting the virus before air traffic basically stopped. But â€œstruck downâ€ is a bit of an exaggeration. Your average cabin crew member would not be at major risk from this. They might have a family member that may be though.

Well the airline staff don't worry me as much as the idiots getting off the plane and coming into the country.
And let's be honest, anybody getting on a plane to go on holidays in the next while is an idiot.

Boggles · 22-06-2020 06:36PM

lukas8888 wrote: »

Can anyone come up with a logical explanation of how the assorted canary islands has had very few infections despite not locking down until mid March,
and was packed with thousands of tourists from all over Europe.

There is many reasons. They are islands, mandatory masks, Good weather all year round, people infinitely more likely to be outside, they used as experiment for tech, tracing and testing by the Spanish government. You couldn't get onto the islands without been tested.

But mainly to the disgust of other countries, once they found covid they locked people into their hotel rooms. :pac:

Covid19 Part XVIII-25,473 in ROI(1,736 deaths) 5,760 in NI (551 deaths)(30/06)Read OP

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