Masks

yosemitesam1 · 09-06-2020 05:46PM

railer201 wrote: »

Absence of proof isn't the same as proof of absence. There is strong evidence, proof to some that masks flattened the curve quickly and decisively in the Czech Republic, saving hundreds of lives in the process.

Deaths per million Czech Republic = 31 Total deaths = 328
Deaths per million Irish Republic = 341 Total deaths = 1683

At best there's anecdotal evidence but that is even questionable as it involves comparing data from different countries with massive differences in culture, testing, climate etc without even having any definite idea of what stage these countries were in the outbreak when compared.
If something's to be made mandatory there'd want to be proof.
There's so much proof to implement mandatory mask wearing that another poster had to ramble on about circumcision to fill out their post...

dfx- · 09-06-2020 05:58PM

No: other

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I've been using the surgical type masks 3 or 4 times before switching. Does this completely defeat the point of wearing one? They are only worn for the time it takes to do my shopping, 30 mins max, it comes off as soon as I'm outside and then it stays in the car in between uses. Obviously I don't touch the front of it and it sanitize my hands before and after putting it on and removing it.

I figure its not like I'm definitely being exposed to high levels of virus like a healthcare professional would so reusing them is most likely fine.

my lab is recommending that if you do want to wear them (not compulsory), that the maximum time without changing them is 2 hours of constant use. I would suppose it depends on what you're doing.

Seanergy · 09-06-2020 06:14PM

Yes: valved

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I've been using the surgical type masks 3 or 4 times before switching. Does this completely defeat the point of wearing one? They are only worn for the time it takes to do my shopping, 30 mins max, it comes off as soon as I'm outside and then it stays in the car in between uses. Obviously I don't touch the front of it and it sanitize my hands before and after putting it on and removing it.

I figure its not like I'm definitely being exposed to high levels of virus like a healthcare professional would so reusing them is most likely fine.

Of course it doesn't, sounds like you've got a system in place with your mask that works for you and you've weighing up risk, which is alot more than most.

I'm guessing if you were in a higher contact point to a supermarket you might dispose of your mask instead of reusing? A few brown bags or large envelopes might come in handy if you want to quarintine your masks for future use, creating a rotation system.

Arrival · 09-06-2020 06:21PM

railer201 wrote: »

Absence of proof isn't the same as proof of absence. There is strong evidence, proof to some that masks flattened the curve quickly and decisively in the Czech Republic, saving hundreds of lives in the process.

Deaths per million Czech Republic = 31 Total deaths = 328
Deaths per million Irish Republic = 341 Total deaths = 1683

Slovakia is a better example again as they've a similar size population, but are more densely populated. Their results are much better again than Czechias

railer201 · 09-06-2020 06:25PM

Yes: valved

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

At best there's anecdotal evidence but that is even questionable as it involves comparing data from different countries with massive differences in culture, testing, climate etc without even having any definite idea of what stage these countries were in the outbreak when compared.
If something's to be made mandatory there'd want to be proof.
There's so much proof to implement mandatory mask wearing that another poster had to ramble on about circumcision to fill out their post...

What would culture have to do with anything ?

How would the tests vary between countries and how would that affect either positive or negative outcomes ?

What impact does climate have on the spread of Covid-19 ?

What anecdotal evidence are you referring to ?

You're coming up with a lot of stuff - do you have any links to support what you're saying ?

railer201 · 09-06-2020 06:36PM

Yes: valved

Arrival wrote: »

Slovakia is a better example again as they've a similar size population, but are more densely populated. Their results are much better again than Czechias

5 deaths per million of pop. and 28 total - missed that. Not enough proof for some here though ! :rolleyes:

otnomart · 09-06-2020 07:31PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I've been using the surgical type masks 3 or 4 times before switching. Does this completely defeat the point of wearing one? They are only worn for the time it takes to do my shopping, 30 mins max, it comes off as soon as I'm outside and then it stays in the car in between uses. Obviously I don't touch the front of it and it sanitize my hands before and after putting it on and removing it.

I figure its not like I'm definitely being exposed to high levels of virus like a healthcare professional would so reusing them is most likely fine.

I am doing the same with my surgical masks. Most shopping trips are 30 minutes max. I store the mask in a open ziploc bag at home. Wash hands before and after.
As surgical ones only protect others, I am guessing that they function even after a few usages of 30 minutes each.

Dubl07 · 09-06-2020 07:35PM

Yes: other

weldoninhio wrote: »

And yet, without mandatory masks, the numbers continue to plummet. Facts, not feelings.

I wonder why the government is pondering sending masks to every household. Sense, not nonsense.

Wibbs · 09-06-2020 08:31PM

Yes: other

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

At best there's anecdotal evidence but that is even questionable as it involves comparing data from different countries with massive differences in culture, testing, climate etc without even having any definite idea of what stage these countries were in the outbreak when compared.
If something's to be made mandatory there'd want to be proof.
There's so much proof to implement mandatory mask wearing that another poster had to ramble on about circumcision to fill out their post...

Avoiding points again and missing the cultural point by a country mile. Then again I'm not surprised. Many people are remarkably entrenched and lacking in objective insight on that point. It has fascinated me long before this virus.

Show me proof that hand washing works against respiratory viruses. Show me proof that social distancing of two metres works against respiratory viruses. Show me proof that coughing into the crook of your elbow works against respiratory viruses. The latter is a beaut. Actually so is the two metres measurement. Zero clinical evidence for it. Go on, find it. I and others can and have fired up enough studies into the efficacy of masks. Why not ten metres? I'm sure that would show a massive reduction. Certainly more than two metres would for I would hope obvious reasons. But again something that is literally a hankie held over your mouth and nose is apparently less efficacious than coughing into a sleeve as far as "respiratory hygiene" as they term it is concerned.

Actually the phrase "practice respiratory hygiene" as the HSE use. What the hell does that even mean? Gargling dettol? And again masks work as risk reducers for those infected and those around them, but are apparently useless anywhere else. Magic masks. Would they have worked in care homes, or does the magic stop there too?

It is my firm belief the major reason for the pushback against masks is almost entirely cultural. No matter what logic or evidence is produced fingers go into the ears. We're not Asians. Masks are not What We Do™. I hate not being able to see people's faces. I'd look stupid. It'll frighten people. It'll cause people to be lazy. The Authorities™ have said Be Grand©. That's it. Even when faced with the obviously contrary statements that they are necessary for the symptomatic and those around them, but of no benefit for the asymptomatic, or slightly symptomatic in the wider community in enclosed indoor spaces, people still cling to nope.

No? Don't believe me and think you have some other reason why they're a bad bet? OK. Many more wore and wear gloves than masks. For a respiratory virus that you can't contract through the skin. Why? The government didn't tell them to. There is zero evidence of risk reduction. Indeed quite a bit that suggests they increase risk(with flu by quite a bit as the flu virus falls apart on human skin in around 15 minutes but can last many hours on latex). It was simply down to to two overriding instincts: we are told surfaces may be contaminated, so touching is bad, so gloves give us confidence because we're not directly touching anything "icky", we feel like we're doing something prophylactic, and we feel far more confident to wear gloves as they're far less obvious and not culturally "odd".

McGiver · 10-06-2020 01:25AM

No: I don't care enough

weldoninhio wrote:

3. No evidence that this would have made a screed of difference. Get over it.

Reported for trolling

odyssey06 · 10-06-2020 08:13AM

Wibbs wrote: »

It is my firm belief the major reason for the pushback against masks is almost entirely cultural. No matter what logic or evidence is produced fingers go into the ears.

There's more mundane factors too.

Masks are fiddly and awkward. You're talking to someone in a loud public place and you're talking through the mask to a stranger - can be difficult.
If you have glasses, again awkward, need to fit the mask just right or steams up.

Gloves are cheaper and less awkward, interfere less with what you are doing.
People are used to wearing gloves in winter.

So I think masks have more of an 'awkwardness' factor that has to be overcome and needs a bigger shift for acceptance.

weldoninhio · 10-06-2020 08:23AM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Wibbs wrote: »

So avoiding the question? And it appears you are saying PPE has little value. Again, except in certain settings, cos magic.

On the one hand the anti mask types will claim that masks make people more lackadaisical and more likely to infect themselves and others through over confidence, on the other hand they make us all paranoid and fearful. Man these magic masks keep on giving.

As for "normality". That's entirely culturally based and biased and shifts over time, often in response to health and disease changes in a culture. Masks are perfectly acceptable in many Asian cultures, who tend to have shorter flu and cold seasons, whatever next.. and weathered this pox way better. But oh god no, we in Ireland a) can't be trusted to know how to wear one, b) they're anathema to our culture/make me look stupid etc. Entirely cultural and no matter what evidence is offered will be resisted. That's 90% of the "argument". Even if tomorrow it was claimed that wearing face masks caused Asian men's willies to stop working, because of their culture not wearing one would still be resisted. Like Americans who rightly will say no to FGM, but are happy to take scalpels to their male baby's mickeys in celebration, yet don't see the irony. Culture an' that. Like I said before in the thread, individuals may be bright, or stupid,or average, the mob is almost always thick and slow to move, except in panic, or when they're told to move. I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of the same propellerheads that were stockpiling bog roll at the start of this would also resist masks, but would be fine with wearing mouldy gloves. Well gloves aren't "foreign".

Asian countries wear them because of the massive air pollution.

weldoninhio · 10-06-2020 08:25AM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

railer201 wrote: »

Absence of proof isn't the same as proof of absence. There is strong evidence, proof to some that masks speaking Czech flattened the curve quickly and decisively in the Czech Republic, saving hundreds of lives in the process.

Deaths per million Czech Republic = 31 Total deaths = 328
Deaths per million Irish Republic = 341 Total deaths = 1683

See, you can prove anything when you don't need actual evidence to back it up.

weldoninhio · 10-06-2020 08:27AM

No: I will wait for the HSE to recommend

Dubl07 wrote: »

I wonder why the government is pondering sending masks to every household. Sense, not nonsense.

I'd be willing to bet €50 to the winners charity that the govt won't be sending masks to every household. As they use facts, not feelings.

railer201 · 10-06-2020 08:48AM

Yes: valved

weldoninhio wrote: »

See, you can prove anything when you don't need actual evidence to back it up.

I think nearly everyone knows where to source that evidence at this stage. I take it you're capable of scrolling down to the relevant parts.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

ednwireland · 10-06-2020 09:04AM

No: other

leo on the radio there saying if you wash your hands put the mask on and if you touch or have a smoke or eat you wash your hands and put a new mask on.

those re-useing once use masks without cleaning them are risking infection from the mask.

the reason its too late now is because we are down to so few cases although i do think they should be mandatory on public transport (apaprently drivers dont wear them either)

McGiver · 10-06-2020 09:34AM

No: I don't care enough

odyssey06 wrote: »

There's more mundane factors too.

Masks are fiddly and awkward. You're talking to someone in a loud public place and you're talking through the mask to a stranger - can be difficult.
If you have glasses, again awkward, need to fit the mask just right or steams up.

Gloves are cheaper and less awkward, interfere less with what you are doing.
People are used to wearing gloves in winter.

So I think masks have more of an 'awkwardness' factor that has to be overcome and needs a bigger shift for acceptance.

You're right, but what Wibbs raised are very valid points and the core issues. The hassle vs less hassle with masks vs gloves just adds to it.

Boggles · 10-06-2020 09:41AM

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There's no proof to say that masks would make a significant difference to infection rates,

weldoninhio wrote: »

See, you can prove anything when you don't need actual evidence to back it up.

Jaysus, it's like talking with a couple of flat earthers.

There is absolute reams of evidence and has been for years, SARS, Flu, Covid 19.

The most recent released was last weeks from the Germans, A scientific evidenced based study on Covid 19.

Germany plans to make face masks mandatory at airports

Face Masks Considerably Reduce
COVID-19 Cases in Germany

Now should we listen to and do as the Germans are doing, or should we listen to people whose main opposition to masks is, they make me look like a wally and they fog up my glasses?

McGiver · 10-06-2020 09:43AM

No: I don't care enough

https://crushthecurve.ie/

Initiative by hundreds of leading Irish academics in the areas of virology, epidemiology, immunology, medicine etc.

This can be done, if we all work together on the island. Several countries have already largely halted the virus, including South Korea, New Zealand, Australia, Austria, Greece, China and Iceland, by continuing public health measures, including the use of masks, active fast contact tracing and testing, and sensible restrictions on travel. All are now planned for both parts of this island, but they must be enhanced and coordinated - with the aim of achieving ambitious suppression targets.

Actions Needed
Strongly advise people to wear masks in public, especially on public transport, and where there are other people around.

Boggles · 10-06-2020 09:47AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd be willing to bet €50 to the winners charity that the govt won't be sending masks to every household. As they use facts, not feelings.

The same bet amount for charity, but face coverings / masks will be mandatory on public transport.

Didn't you say you use public transport several times a day?

Wibbs · 10-06-2020 10:14AM

Yes: other

weldoninhio wrote: »

Asian countries wear them because of the massive air pollution.

Not quite, but then again I'm hardly bowled over with surprise at your simplistic perceptions and general ignorance.

Before the germ theory of disease gained hold illness was associated with "bad air" and not just in Eastern cultures. In Europe the same theory held sway. "Miasmas" or bad/night air was thought to be the cause of infection. The plague doctor's mask contained sweet smelling substances as a way to ward off such bad airs in the course of their duties. That was the purpose of the pointed beak like front on them. As germ theory took off this notion and the masks and nosegays dropped off in popularity in the West, but kept going in the East. In the 1918 pandemic and others of the 20th century Asian cultures went back to masks as part of that older cultural heritage and was ramped up in the wake of more recent outbreaks like SARS, bird and swine flu, so it became part and parcel of daily life. Asian cultures tend more to the communal and the individual's responsibility to protect the wider family and community, so masking up and isolating when sick was considered correct. Pollution is a tiny part of the reason, but again has the influence of bad air to it too.

Arrival · 10-06-2020 12:57PM

Here's a great TedTalk with a USA public health Official. Ye should watch the full interview as it's very good, but at 29:20 he does exactly what we all wish our government would do; admits that they were in the wrong, and updates people with new information which they have learned

Anyone arguing against masks, considering the points raised by this man in this, is either outright retarded, trolling or simply okay with perpetuating dangerous misinformation and damaging the effort to implement a measure which can help the public health of our country. **** them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGUKiFwlN2Q

Seanergy · 10-06-2020 01:19PM

Yes: valved

ednwireland wrote: »

leo on the radio there saying if you wash your hands put the mask on and if you touch or have a smoke or eat you wash your hands and put a new mask on.

those re-useing once use masks without cleaning them are risking infection from the mask.

the reason its too late now is because we are down to so few cases although i do think they should be mandatory on public transport (apaprently drivers dont wear them either)

What programme was this please?

How's Leo suggesting people clean once use masks anyway?

We could be 4+weeks away from Mandatory at this rate.

It's never too late and now might be a particulary good time with the virus in low circualtion for people to adjust to wearing masks. Safer to to this now with virus in low circualtion than when the heavens open up.

Wibbs · 10-06-2020 01:25PM

Yes: other

Seanergy wrote: »

It's never too late and now might be a particulary good time with the virus in low circualtion for people to adjust to wearing masks. Safer to to this now with virus in low circualtion than when the heavens open up.

Good point and would also help reduce any impact of the annual cold and flu season. This years cold and flu season could have more social and economical impact than most because of the fear of a cover "second wave".

ednwireland · 10-06-2020 01:44PM

No: other

Seanergy wrote: »

What programme was this please?

How's Leo suggesting people clean once use masks anyway?

We could be 4+weeks away from Mandatory at this rate.

It's never too late and now might be a particulary good time with the virus in low circualtion for people to adjust to wearing masks. Safer to to this now with virus in low circualtion than when the heavens open up.

sorry that was my brain mixing things up !

Mr Varadkar told RTE 2FM on Wednesday: “We recommend people wear them on public transport or shops but it is not an alternative to hand washing and hygiene measures. Masks are not a magic shield – it is not an alternative to the measures.
“It is really important that people wear masks correctly so we’re going to step up the information campaign around that.

We are forever seeing people being interviewed wearing the mask around their neck – that is exactly what you do not do.

“You wash your hands, put on the mask which covers your nose and mouth, and if you need to take it off to eat or smoke, you take off the mask and you don’t put it back on again.

“You need to wash your hands and put on a new clean mask, so we have a job, work to do around the dos and don’ts of wearing a mask.
"If you don't do it correctly it is not beneficial, it is potentially harmful.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/information-campaign-on-face-masks-to-be-stepped-up-taoiseach-1004401.html

dundalkfc10 · 10-06-2020 01:59PM

Boggles wrote: »

The same bet amount for charity, but face coverings / masks will be mandatory on public transport.

Didn't you say you use public transport several times a day?

Will the govt be providing them. Im out enough money paying sky high rent, having work from home with 2 kids running around, to be worrying about another expense

Boggles · 10-06-2020 04:34PM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Will the govt be providing them. Im out enough money paying sky high rent, having work from home with 2 kids running around, to be worrying about another expense

Sure you must have saved a fortune on travel.

But make your own.

Seanergy · 10-06-2020 04:39PM

Yes: valved

ednwireland wrote: »

sorry that was my brain mixing things up !

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/information-campaign-on-face-masks-to-be-stepped-up-taoiseach-1004401.html

Zero Hassle, brain fog happens to most us, me incl, thanks for the link and ref. The article says the Government will step up its campaign to show the public how to wear face masks properly! Pure PR spew, GOV.IE website still promoting potentially harmful instructions.

GOV.IE

To take it off properly:
remove it from behind - do not touch the front of the mask

do not touch your eyes, nose, and mouth

clean your hands properly

put disposable masks in a bin straight away

ARTICLE:

We are forever seeing people being interviewed wearing the mask around their neck – that is exactly what you do not do.

I'm not going to show Stay Firm in his scrubs with his mask around his neck visiting the traveller's but I can't recall any other Irish person being interviewed with a wet tissue around their neck.

The word covering was used once in the article whilst the word mask was used for the title and 8 times throughtout the article. Mixed messaging fiasco keeps giving.

GOV.IE aren't alone, Minister for Health and HSE.IE also promoting risky potentially harmful instructions.

otnomart · 10-06-2020 05:09PM

Swiss develop first see-through surgical mask
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-develop-first-see-through-mask/45824518

ginoginelli · 10-06-2020 06:31PM

Yes: surgical

Another hit piece on masks from rte news and George lee there. Propagating erroneous and out of date information of date as per usual.

They are doing a fantastic job in convincing people NOT to wear them.

Masks

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