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Masks

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Comments

  • #3002
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    How on earth did it spread so much if it was only symptomatic cases? It's very bizarre that the data has gone from way 40% of infections to "rare".


  • #3003
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,511 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    McGiver wrote: »
    3. Universal mandatory mask usage.

    Much shorter lockdown would be needed and with much better results.
    weldoninhio wrote: »
    3. No evidence that this would have made a screed of difference. Get over it.

    That statement is based on ignorance or denial or both, either way it is BS.

    Germany plans to make face masks mandatory at airports

    Face Masks Considerably Reduce
    COVID-19 Cases in Germany

    People need to stop referencing the WHO especially vague statements without any published data, they are finished as any sort of authority for this pandemic, they are in the background being ignored and have been for months.


  • #3004
    Seanergy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭Seanergy


    Yes: valved
    weldoninhio wrote: »
    If proper measures had been put into place a lot of those deaths could have been prevented.

    We are strangling the economy for no reason.

    Proper measures = masks worn.

    No, there is a reason the economy got strangled, lack of masks.

    First part, product was low and in high demand, State decided it was in best interest to protect supply for frontliners.

    State did not forsee(as neither did the WHO) the option of the public making their own facecoverigns early on(March) and also more importantly did not trust the public with low product news then so instead of brutal honesty and transparency fabricted red herrings to protect supply.

    Dr stay firm, CMO and Minster for Health are stuck in their own makings.

    Any chance, the reason they are stuck to mandate/act is down to legal/legislative reasons loophole due to no governmnet?


  • #3005
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    No: other
    Deleted User wrote: »
    How on earth did it spread so much if it was only symptomatic cases? It's very bizarre that the data has gone from way 40% of infections to "rare".
    One thing that is known about it is that it is cluster-driven so while it has one to exploit it is likely to spread very quickly. Environment is a big thing as well, enclosed crowded places the perfect spot. There is also the superspreader phenomenon but I don't think they have a clear understanding on that yet.


  • #3006
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Boggles wrote: »
    That statement is based on ignorance or denial or both, either way it is BS.

    Germany plans to make face masks mandatory at airports

    Face Masks Considerably Reduce
    COVID-19 Cases in Germany

    People need to stop referencing the WHO especially vague statements without any published data, they are finished as any sort of authority for this pandemic, they are in the background being ignored and have been for months.

    It's amazing how pre covid, science couldn't decide whether respiratory diseases were spread by droplets and/or aerosols, and were facemasks effective or not, despite years of research.
    But within a few weeks we can definitively say masks work and decide that covid is entirely droplet spread.
    Go figure...


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  • #3007
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Yes: valved
    Donate them to local hospices/care homes?


  • #3008
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    No: other
    Evilcamper wrote: »
    I work in a local charity and we have overestimated demand for surgical masks by about 7,000 in the local area for other charities and nursing homes. We are providing them at the cost price of 85 cents and I am just wondering where would be the best place to advertise them or who would be the best to contact so that they go to those services which are vital but have been overlooked by the HSE?
    Why not contact the HSE themselves and see what they say? NHI might be another avenue.


  • #3009
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,511 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    It's amazing how pre covid, science couldn't decide whether respiratory diseases were spread by droplets and/or aerosols, and were facemasks effective or not, despite years of research.

    Well no, Science was perfectly clear, backed up by previous pandemics.

    It was the "interruption" of that science that muddy the waters.

    i.e. down right lies.


  • #3010
    Sconsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    No: other
    Deleted User wrote: »
    How on earth did it spread so much if it was only symptomatic cases? It's very bizarre that the data has gone from way 40% of infections to "rare".

    I read this morning that people are at their most contagous when they are pre-symptomatic, so the day(s) before the symptoms kick-in.

    Anyone that is asymptomatic will never be pre-symtomatic. But the pre-symptomatic are contagous, and are not obviously sick at that stage.


  • #3011
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sconsey wrote: »
    I read this morning that people are at their most contagous when they are pre-symptomatic, so the day(s) before the symptoms kick-in.

    Anyone that is asymptomatic will never be pre-symtomatic. But the pre-symptomatic are contagous, and are not obviously sick at that stage.

    If that is the case, the WHO really messed up their wording because it makes it sound like you only spread while symptomatic.


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  • #3012
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    No: other
    Deleted User wrote: »
    If that is the case, the WHO really messed up their wording because it makes it sound like you only spread while symptomatic.
    At the time they didn't believe it was a major issue in transmission.


  • #3013
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Points 1 and 2 would have been enough, asymptomatic aren't spreaders so masks are no use for the healthy.
    That's a nonsense. Read more. Never mind that asymptomatic spreaders are an issue with flu outbreaks so it's not as if there isn't any precedent. Have another read this time of a USCDC report on flu. NB this part:

    Most experts believe that flu viruses spread mainly by tiny droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby. Less often, a person might get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose or possibly their eyes.

    Another respiratory virus and again Covid19 is magically different... The clue is in the bloody description: Respiratory virus.
    weldoninhio wrote: »
    1. We have a land border with another country.
    2. If we'd just done the bold we'd have 3/400 deaths maybe?
    3. No evidence that this would have made a screed of difference. Get over it.
    Not the land border bollocks again. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, Greece, Czech rep have land borders too, the latter two a few more than us and aren't islands. We were able to treat the island as a single entity during foot and mouth but this time that wasn't even tried. The care home situation was an almighty screwup by the Irish authorities. Wasn't the only one either. Again thank our lucky stars it wasn't a much deadlier virus. With the exception of Greece all the nations with lower numbers than us implemented masks. Mad coincidence no doubt for those who are against masks almost entirely because of the Idon'twannalooklikeaspa "argument".
    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    @wibbs, so what do you think now, believe WHO or don't? I'm kinda on Trump's side they've been a dangerous mess, thought our government were out of order upping our WHO funding in a knee jerk reaction to Trump pulling it.
    Trump is a dangerous moron and snake oil salesman. The WHO are an underfunded politically vulnerable, woefully underprepared entity. The two positions are separate. Again we were blessed this wasn't smallpox or the like.
    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    It's amazing how pre covid, science couldn't decide whether respiratory diseases were spread by droplets and/or aerosols, and were facemasks effective or not, despite years of research.
    But within a few weeks we can definitively say masks work and decide that covid is entirely droplet spread.
    Go figure...
    Nope. The years of research showed respiratory diseases were spread by droplets. Mostly directly or through contact with surfaces which were themselves contaminated by droplets. Again the clue is in the name. You can't catch flu or colds or covid19/SARS/MERS through your skin. It can only infect through mucus membranes found in the mouth, nose, possibly the eyes. Hand washing reduces the risk of passing surface contamination to the mucus membranes, distancing reduces the risk of inhaling viral laden droplets, but masks that reduce both the exhalation and inhalation of the same viral laden droplets at the source are of little benefit?

    Sometimes I really can't fathom the resistance to the novel and the dismissal of the Bloody Obvious™ and even the sheer unalloyed dumb on display with some. This is basic cop on logic here. Put it another way; if tomorrow a hand virus came out that infected a person through the skin of their palms and the WHO "advice" was to wear masks you'd think them beyond idiotic and would be happy to wear gloves, yet with a respiratory virus... Gloves which can be seen more in use than masks is not far off wearing a condom after you have sex to prevent pregnancy.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #3014
    Sconsey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    No: other
    Deleted User wrote: »
    If that is the case, the WHO really messed up their wording because it makes it sound like you only spread while symptomatic.

    It seems like news agencies are having a problem comprehending the message, the WHO seem very poor at communicating to the masses. This reddit discussion is interesting, looks like WHO have been fairly consistent in their message but the message is not interpreted very well.


  • #3015
    silver2020
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭silver2020


    If they are standard surgical disposable masks, then at a cost price of 85c, you were ripped off.

    I can source N95 certified masks for under €1 and the standard surgical masks for about 20c each. Order quantities would need to be 50,000+ which is not huge for a medical facility or medical supply company. Prices have come back down to near normal and supplies are fluid.

    HSE can't take them as the quantity is tiny and they have to have a full audit trail. NHI are just an umbrella organisation.

    Maybe one of the disability organisations that transport service users a lot will buy them - but be prepared to take a loss.


  • #3016
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,511 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Trump is a dangerous moron and snake oil salesman. The WHO are an underfunded politically vulnerable, woefully underprepared entity. The two positions are separate. Again we were blessed this wasn't smallpox or the like.

    The WHO have some absolute wonderful brilliant brave professionals working for them, many many of them, but as always in these top bloated organisations, they are let down by the people at the top.

    They cluster fúcked the initial response to the Ebola breakout in 2013, an inquiry in the aftermath of it recommended a complete reform in leadership and structure.

    It didn't happen, Covid 19 was only declared a global pandemic on March 11th.


  • #3017
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,458 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    No: I don't care enough
    Threads merged


  • #3018
    granturismo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭granturismo


    No: other
    Evilcamper wrote: »
    ... where would be the best place to advertise them or who would be the best to contact so that they go to those services which are vital but have been overlooked by the HSE?

    At the end of March, I dropped off a boot load of PPE including surgical masks to the HSE and they said most of what they were receiving as donations would be going to nursing homes.

    If your charity is prepared to give the masks away, give them to the HSE. Or give them to a charity shop and agree to split the profits with that charity.


  • #3019
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,186 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    No: other
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Gloves which can be seen more in use than masks is not far off wearing a condom after you have sex to prevent pregnancy.

    But why should men need to wear condoms when they're not at risk of getting pregnant :pac:


  • #3020
    Evilcamper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Evilcamper


    Yes: surgical
    Yea thats seems to be the situation and I have told the committee to prepare for a loss but just got a message that they have been able to sell small amounts to local businesses (apparently the surgical masks are of higher quality than others, not that I can tell, definitely not N95 ones thos) for a bit higher, I am stumped at who's buying them if the 20c price is correct.


  • #3021
    Evilcamper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Evilcamper


    Yes: surgical
    Charity shop probably is the best idea in this regard.


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  • #3022
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Wibbs wrote: »

    Nope. The years of research showed respiratory diseases were spread by droplets. Mostly directly or through contact with surfaces which were themselves contaminated by droplets. Again the clue is in the name. You can't catch flu or colds or covid19/SARS/MERS through your skin. It can only infect through mucus membranes found in the mouth, nose, possibly the eyes. Hand washing reduces the risk of passing surface contamination to the mucus membranes, distancing reduces the risk of inhaling viral laden droplets, but masks that reduce both the exhalation and inhalation of the same viral laden droplets at the source are of little benefit?
    Where is the proof that aerosols are not a viable transmission route for covid?
    You pack a bus full of people with masks and poorly circulating air and you seriously think that aerosol transmission won't occur?
    It's very hard for studies to actually detect viruses in airborne droplets let alone prove anything, that certainty over the effectiveness of masks can be achieved in weeks is astounding. Wtf were the researchers at up until now...


  • #3023
    SusanC10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    Yes: homemade
    Looking for advice on Masks. There is my Husband and I plus 2 Kids.

    We have some single use ones. So far, I am the only person who has gone into shops, so I am the only one who has worn them.

    Now, at the end of the month, all going well, we will be able to finally visit my elderly mother and sister who has special needs, both with underlying health conditions. The advice is to wear Masks and gloves etc.
    We will be staying in a different house close by but will be visiting.

    So, should we just use the single use ones ? Or should I buy cloth Masks for all of us ? How long can both single use ones and cloth ones by used for each time - how many hours ? Should I wash the cloth ones after each use ?

    Any advice appreciated.


  • #3024
    Arrival
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭Arrival


    SusanC10 wrote: »
    Looking for advice on Masks. There is my Husband and I plus 2 Kids.

    We have some single use ones. So far, I am the only person who has gone into shops, so I am the only one who has worn them.

    Now, at the end of the month, all going well, we will be able to finally visit my elderly mother and sister who has special needs, both with underlying health conditions. The advice is to wear Masks and gloves etc.
    We will be staying in a different house close by but will be visiting.

    So, should we just use the single use ones ? Or should I buy cloth Masks for all of us ? How long can both single use ones and cloth ones by used for each time - how many hours ? Should I wash the cloth ones after each use ?

    Any advice appreciated.

    If you can get a decent 3 layer cloth one it'd be grand to wear that I'd say, but of course to be extra careful considering who you're visiting I would definitely stay outside and more than 2m away from them at all times. If ye needed to go to the bathroom, they could leave the house doors open so ye can go straight in without touching anything and then ye could give a quick wipedown to anything in the bathroom ye would touch. May sound extreme to some but when you actually consider the complications the virus can cause for people with underlying health conditions it's just being responsible in a logical way


  • #3025
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    You pack a bus full of people with masks and poorly circulating air and you seriously think that aerosol transmission won't occur?
    Do you seriously believe that the same bus with the same number of people not wearing masks would be the same risk? If you do I really don't know what to say to you.

    Wearing masks is recommended as a risk reducer if dealing with confirmed infected cases, for both the infected and the healthy in both home and clinical settings. Why? Because - and you may need to sit down for this, big shock coming - they work as a risk reducer. So again we're back to the magic masks theory that somehow means they lose this efficacy everywhere else. So either you believe that PPE has little value anywhere, or PPE has magical properties depending on setting. Them's your only choices I'm afraid.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #3026
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Do you seriously believe that the same bus with the same number of people not wearing masks would be the same risk? If you do I really don't know what to say to you.

    Wearing masks is recommended as a risk reducer if dealing with confirmed infected cases, for both the infected and the healthy in both home and clinical settings. Why? Because - and you may need to sit down for this, big shock coming - they work as a risk reducer. So again we're back to the magic masks theory that somehow means they lose this efficacy everywhere else. So either you believe that PPE has little value anywhere, or PPE has magical properties depending on setting. Them's your only choices I'm afraid.

    There's no proof to say that masks would make a significant difference to infection rates, but it will feed into fear of getting covid and ultimately delay us getting back to normality


  • #3027
    railer201
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Yes: valved
    SusanC10 wrote: »
    Looking for advice on Masks. There is my Husband and I plus 2 Kids.

    We have some single use ones. So far, I am the only person who has gone into shops, so I am the only one who has worn them.

    Now, at the end of the month, all going well, we will be able to finally visit my elderly mother and sister who has special needs, both with underlying health conditions. The advice is to wear Masks and gloves etc.
    We will be staying in a different house close by but will be visiting.

    So, should we just use the single use ones ? Or should I buy cloth Masks for all of us ? How long can both single use ones and cloth ones by used for each time - how many hours ? Should I wash the cloth ones after each use ?

    Any advice appreciated.

    The handiest would be buy a box of 50 medical grade masks as available in the pharmacies, and many supermarkets. Allow for using two per person per day, hence with four people it's best to buy a box. I used these in a hospital environment last week, they are the same as what the medical staff are wearing, and they are light and comfortable to wear.

    I'd say up to four hours at a time with the single use - perhaps less with the re-usable cotton and that's assuming non-runny noses all round.

    You may use re-usable cotton face masks or coverings, but they will all require daily laundering. You may need at least one spare per person, to cover for either a change or laundering.

    Both types are runners, my own preference for long periods would be the pharmacy ones. Don't forget it's the 'blue' side to the front and there's a wire to bend over the bridge of the nose. Handle them by the ear loops only, and don't fiddle with them when in place. Make sure you pull them out fully to cover both nose and mouth - and perhaps most importantly wash hands thoroughly before donning the masks.


  • #3028
    xhomelezz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,094 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    Yes: valved
    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    There's no proof to say that masks would make a significant difference to infection rates, but it will feed into fear of getting covid and ultimately delay us getting back to normality

    The level of ignorance and lack of ability to read and understand of some people is amazing. Just read through this thread and you might find plenty of interesting info mask related.


  • #3029
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,322 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Yes: other
    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    There's no proof to say that masks would make a significant difference to infection rates,
    So avoiding the question? And it appears you are saying PPE has little value. Again, except in certain settings, cos magic.
    but it will feed into fear of getting covid and ultimately delay us getting back to normality
    On the one hand the anti mask types will claim that masks make people more lackadaisical and more likely to infect themselves and others through over confidence, on the other hand they make us all paranoid and fearful. Man these magic masks keep on giving.

    As for "normality". That's entirely culturally based and biased and shifts over time, often in response to health and disease changes in a culture. Masks are perfectly acceptable in many Asian cultures, who tend to have shorter flu and cold seasons, whatever next.. and weathered this pox way better. But oh god no, we in Ireland a) can't be trusted to know how to wear one, b) they're anathema to our culture/make me look stupid etc. Entirely cultural and no matter what evidence is offered will be resisted. That's 90% of the "argument". Even if tomorrow it was claimed that wearing face masks caused Asian men's willies to stop working, because of their culture not wearing one would still be resisted. Like Americans who rightly will say no to FGM, but are happy to take scalpels to their male baby's mickeys in celebration, yet don't see the irony. Culture an' that. Like I said before in the thread, individuals may be bright, or stupid,or average, the mob is almost always thick and slow to move, except in panic, or when they're told to move. I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of the same propellerheads that were stockpiling bog roll at the start of this would also resist masks, but would be fine with wearing mouldy gloves. Well gloves aren't "foreign".

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #3030
    railer201
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭railer201


    Yes: valved
    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    There's no proof to say that masks would make a significant difference to infection rates, but it will feed into fear of getting covid and ultimately delay us getting back to normality

    Absence of proof isn't the same as proof of absence. There is strong evidence, proof to some that masks flattened the curve quickly and decisively in the Czech Republic, saving hundreds of lives in the process.

    Deaths per million Czech Republic = 31 Total deaths = 328
    Deaths per million Irish Republic = 341 Total deaths = 1683


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  • #3031
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,667 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Yes: homemade
    railer201 wrote: »
    The handiest would be buy a box of 50 medical grade masks as available in the pharmacies, and many supermarkets. Allow for using two per person per day, hence with four people it's best to buy a box. I used these in a hospital environment last week, they are the same as what the medical staff are wearing, and they are light and comfortable to wear.

    I'd say up to four hours at a time with the single use - perhaps less with the re-usable cotton and that's assuming non-runny noses all round.

    You may use re-usable cotton face masks or coverings, but they will all require daily laundering. You may need at least one spare per person, to cover for either a change or laundering.

    Both types are runners, my own preference for long periods would be the pharmacy ones. Don't forget it's the 'blue' side to the front and there's a wire to bend over the bridge of the nose. Handle them by the ear loops only, and don't fiddle with them when in place. Make sure you pull them out fully to cover both nose and mouth - and perhaps most importantly wash hands thoroughly before donning the masks.

    I've been using the surgical type masks 3 or 4 times before switching. Does this completely defeat the point of wearing one? They are only worn for the time it takes to do my shopping, 30 mins max, it comes off as soon as I'm outside and then it stays in the car in between uses. Obviously I don't touch the front of it and it sanitize my hands before and after putting it on and removing it.

    I figure its not like I'm definitely being exposed to high levels of virus like a healthcare professional would so reusing them is most likely fine.


This discussion has been closed.
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