12 acres. Tree plan.

80sDiesel · 09-04-2020 6:51pm

Nearly done with the last 6 odd acres for wildflowers. Hoping to seed the last bit of seed before the rain comes on Sunday.

Most of the trees are in tubes except for 20 odd alder. The alder in the tubes are in the majority in leaf but those without tubes are not yet. Tubes paying their way.

80sDiesel · 12-04-2020 11:19am

Have the list of most of the wildflower seeds sown:

Corofin
Purple loose strife
Self heal
Oxeye
Stichworth
Yarrow
Sorrel
Plantain
Lesser knapweed
Meadow buttercup
Birds-foot trefoil
Red clover
Red barista
Yellow rattle
Variety of native grasses

80sDiesel · 23-04-2020 11:00pm

Currently spending an hour or so every evemig taking care of docks. Using a tool I bought from the link below. Seems to work well.

The only joy is that I can see the wildflower seedlings coming up and taking a peep down the tree tubes to see most trees are in leaf.

https://lazydogtools.co.uk/

HillFarmer · 19-05-2020 3:26am

Really enjoy reading this thread, very similar interests to my own.

Any pics on the Wildflower meadows?

Would also be interested in your seed supplier, I didn't find a great selection when I planted a few years back.

victor8600 · 21-05-2020 1:09pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

Nearly done with the last 6 odd acres for wildflowers. Hoping to seed the last bit of seed before the rain comes on Sunday.

Could you please tell me (PM if the info is not for the public), where did you get wildflower seeds and how much did you pay per kg or the coverage area?

80sDiesel · 22-05-2020 11:19am

The best supplier is wildflowers.ie. All native seed. Don’t remember the prices but the site has all the calculations.

Not sure how successful the spring sown seeds will be. I should have used the chain Harrow more to get more of the thatch and the unseasonably dry May may have killed a lot of them off. Think germination is 6 weeks so will know more in the next week.
The Autumn sown are flying and the dry May may have helped them in slowing the competing grass growth.

The first re-introduced wildflower to flower is the meadow buttercup which now accompanies the cuckoo flowers which were already present.

A great video I watched recently on rewilding. A place called knepp wildland in West Sussex. 45 mins long but I learned a lot.

Enjoy
https://youtu.be/oQtpk6Gsawc

Rosahane · 22-05-2020 1:23pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

The best supplier is wildflowers.ie. All native seed. Don’t remember the prices but the site has all the calculations.

Not sure how successful the spring sown seeds will be. I should have used the chain Harrow more to get more of the thatch and the unseasonably dry May may have killed a lot of them off. Think germination is 6 weeks so will know more in the next week.
The Autumn sown are flying and the dry May may have helped them in slowing the competing grass growth.

A great video I watched recently on rewilding. A place called knepp wildland in West Sussex. 45 mins long but I learned a lot.

Enjoy
https://youtu.be/oQtpk6Gsawc

Her book is well worth reading.https://www.bookdepository.com/Wilding-Isabella-Tree/9781509805105?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base1&utm_source=IE&utm_content=Wilding&selectCurrency=EUR&w=AFFPAU96UH5SHDA8VC1X&pdg=pla-293946777986:cmp-9463711619:adg-98687126840:crv-420380901788:pos-:dev-c&gclid=CjwKCAjw8J32BRBCEiwApQEKgbz7HMGy1vy2Y3nf8PZ5-4ml4Zce5GQLu1mW8N7KL5mEYXtHBq_iFRoCs8oQAvD_BwE

HillFarmer · 29-05-2020 10:53am

80sDiesel wrote: »

The best supplier is wildflowers.ie. All native seed. Don’t remember the prices but the site has all the calculations.

Not sure how successful the spring sown seeds will be. I should have used the chain Harrow more to get more of the thatch and the unseasonably dry May may have killed a lot of them off. Think germination is 6 weeks so will know more in the next week.
The Autumn sown are flying and the dry May may have helped them in slowing the competing grass growth.

The first re-introduced wildflower to flower is the meadow buttercup which now accompanies the cuckoo flowers which were already present.

A great video I watched recently on rewilding. A place called knepp wildland in West Sussex. 45 mins long but I learned a lot.

Enjoy
https://youtu.be/oQtpk6Gsawc

Really enjoyed the video.
It's a great view and something for us farmers to aspire to as much as we can.

JJayoo · 30-05-2020 7:51pm

Is the lack off rain having any impact on your trees?

lostboy75 · 31-05-2020 8:33pm

Rosahane wrote: »

Her book is well worth reading.https://www.bookdepository.com/Wilding-Isabella-Tree/9781509805105?redirected=true&utm_medium=Google&utm_campaign=Base1&utm_source=IE&utm_content=Wilding&selectCurrency=EUR&w=AFFPAU96UH5SHDA8VC1X&pdg=pla-293946777986:cmp-9463711619:adg-98687126840:crv-420380901788:pos-:dev-c&gclid=CjwKCAjw8J32BRBCEiwApQEKgbz7HMGy1vy2Y3nf8PZ5-4ml4Zce5GQLu1mW8N7KL5mEYXtHBq_iFRoCs8oQAvD_BwE

Ordered a copy, thanks for the heads up.

80sDiesel · 01-06-2020 1:10pm

JJayoo wrote: »

Is the lack off rain having any impact on your trees?

The tubes would have have helped the trees establish quickly and develop good roots. Only the dozen or so not in tubes show signs of stress.

80sDiesel · 04-06-2020 7:28pm

Probably the most important flower in my meadows.. Known as Hay rattle or yellow rattle. It taps into the roots of grasses knocking back their vigor and thus helps other wildflowers to get established. It is why it is also called meadowmaker.

Would have existed in every unimproved pasture but since it is an annual ,an early cut for sileage/hay rids the fields of it forever
Can also see meadow buttercup, common sorrel and native grasses.

Thud · 05-06-2020 9:17am

80sDiesel wrote: »

Probably the most important flower in my meadows.. Known as Hay rattle or yellow rattle. It taps into the roots of grasses knocking back their vigor and thus helps other wildflowers to get established. It is why it is also called meadowmaker.

Would have existed in every unimproved pasture but since it is an annual ,an early cut for sileage/hay rids the fields of it forever
Can also see meadow buttercup, common sorrel and native grasses.

Not to be cheeky but it doesn’t look like it’s supressing grass there, how long does it take for the suppressing to take effect? Or do you need more of it to suppress that much grass?

80sDiesel · 05-06-2020 4:35pm

Thud wrote: »

Not to be cheeky but it doesn’t look like it’s supressing grass there, how long does it take for the suppressing to take effect? Or do you need more of it to suppress that much grass?

The tall grasses you see have not been tapped into. The grass you can’t see, have.

You could suppress the entire field but would take a lot of yellow rattle to do that. That been said , each year the number of yellow rattle plants will multiply as they shed their seed at the end of summer.
A natural meadow should have a nice balance between native grasses and wildflowers.

Rosahane · 06-06-2020 7:45am

80sDiesel wrote: »

The tall grasses you see have not been tapped into. The grass you can’t see, have.
You could suppress the entire field but would take a lot of yellow rattle to do that. That been said , each year the number of yellow rattle plants will multiply as they shed their seed at the end of summer.
A natural meadow should have a nice balance between native grasses and wildflowers.

If you want to see a great example of a natural wildflower meadow and your up that way the large field in front of Castletown House in Celbridge is a good one. It’s full of yellow rattle, Goats Toe and lots of other wildflowers including some orchids.

80sDiesel · 10-06-2020 3:48pm

This is a good vid on yellow rattle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFbhHHeSXvI&feature=share

Difficult to get a photo which accurately shows but one field where I have planted a small oak forest and neglected for 2 years is now a sea of red sheep sorrel. Will cut this year amd let the seed spread for winter forage for birds.

Water John · 10-06-2020 8:28pm

I have some land which ended up not being grazed this year until now. It's like mob grazing. There is one tall plant with seed heads, similar to your pic, and the cattle love it and eat the seed heads first before the grass.

Bill Hook · 11-06-2020 6:25pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

Probably the most important flower in my meadows.. Known as Hay rattle or yellow rattle. It taps into the roots of grasses knocking back their vigor and thus helps other wildflowers to get established. It is why it is also called meadowmaker.

Would have existed in every unimproved pasture but since it is an annual ,an early cut for sileage/hay rids the fields of it forever
Can also see meadow buttercup, common sorrel and native grasses.

That looks lovely. Did you introduce the yellow rattle yourself or did it occur naturally?

80sDiesel · 11-06-2020 7:33pm

Bill Hook wrote: »

That looks lovely. Did you introduce the yellow rattle yourself or did it occur naturally?

Introduced. Unlike other annuals , the seed doesn’t remain viable after a season .

Bill Hook · 11-06-2020 7:54pm

80sDiesel wrote: »

Introduced. Unlike other annuals , the seed doesn’t remain viable after a season .

I collected some seed last year and put it in a few places. Some of it seems to have taken - I can see a few plants in flower at the moment - but it is fairly overwhelmed by the tall grass around it. The patch that seems most successful was bare (a bale of straw had been sitting on it for a few months) so I am thinking of attempting to replicate that this year by covering up a few patches at random and once the grass has died back scattering more seed. Did you do much ground preparation or did you scatter seed directly into the existing meadow?

80sDiesel · 11-06-2020 11:24pm

Bill Hook wrote: »

I collected some seed last year and put it in a few places. Some of it seems to have taken - I can see a few plants in flower at the moment - but it is fairly overwhelmed by the tall grass around it. The patch that seems most successful was bare (a bale of straw had been sitting on it for a few months) so I am thinking of attempting to replicate that this year by covering up a few patches at random and once the grass has died back scattering more seed. Did you do much ground preparation or did you scatter seed directly into the existing meadow?

When you don’t have much seed It’s best to spread it in clumps. That way , together,it will outcompete the nearby grasses. Then you can use that seed crop to create more clumps.

I made sure the meadow was short and chain harrowed it so that I would get some good soil to seed contact. And made sure I had some clumps of it together. Still have areas with tall grasses but with a August hay cut ( and extra tedding) and chain Harrow the seed should spread to those areas.

80sDiesel · 23-06-2020 12:39am

I hope everyone has enjoyed this thread and thanks for all contributions. The trees will grow and the wildflower meadows will hopefully flourish so nothing really to add for a number of years until the tree tubes are taken down and the meadows settle down into their old natural rhythm.

I am year 1 of another larger project (26 acres) of restoring an upland hay meadow pasture. I will start a thread of that in farming with the knowledge I gained and continue to gain on the 12 acres project.

What.Now · 25-07-2021 8:01pm

Would planting Yellow Rattle cause problems for neighbouring farmers?

Gloomtastic! · 25-07-2021 11:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117660385#Comment_117660385

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinanthus_minor

When you read phrases like ‘restrict grass growth’ I’m sure they’ll have something to complain about.

80sDiesel · 03-11-2021 7:48pm

Happy to report that the trees are thriving. Nearly all have grown out of their tree shelters and now are beginning to broaden. Guessing will take another year or so before some tree shelters can be taken off.

Wild flower meadows also doing great but takes 5 years so will see the results in a couple of years. What I have seen grow so far has been a true joy and already have seen a massive increase in insects. Ladybirds in particular.

One thing this has taught me is patience.

I have since used the knowledge that I have learned (and continue to) from the 12 acres to use on another 25 acres which i probably should start a thread on. That has enough native trees so that’s basically a meadow restoration.

80sDiesel · 03-11-2021 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661037#Comment_117661037

There is a reason why farmers now know nothing about yellow rattle.It’s an annual so once grazed by livestock it’s gone. Forever.

80sDiesel · 07-07-2022 5:30pm

..

.

Large bottle small glass · 07-07-2022 6:28pm

Looks, great well done on the project.

You might enjoy this or not 🙂

https://youtu.be/Qk-03oFgvyQ

80sDiesel · 07-07-2022 6:53pm

......

Furze99 · 07-07-2022 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119305493#Comment_119305493

Haven't read whole thread and only planted about half an acre here, over past 20 years or so. Some have done well, others less so - about 2/3rds of the ash is poor or dead.

But I did note in the opening post that you say '350m high'. Is that 350 metres above sea level? If so, that's quite high - what impact has this had on choice of trees and how they've done?

HerrKapitan · 10-10-2022 4:05pm

I have just finished reading this from start to finish and wanted to say well done on the project.

Very inspirational.

If I had a few acres of agricultural land to do similar, would I need planning permission for a log cabin less than 25sqm?

The land is far from home, and it would be handy to sleep over on weekends.

getoutadodge · 13-10-2022 8:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114488#Comment_118114488

Sounds great. Its exactly the type of project I plan to do if I can get out of the city this year.

funkey_monkey · 16-10-2022 12:07am

Great read. I've put in some forestry myself - albeit on a smaller scale. Next stage is to get some Shropshire sheep to do the grazing around the trees.

Would love to see some more images of your work. If I remember correctly, the laneway in your initial post looked fantastic.

80sDiesel · 31-01-2023 6:59pm

Will get up photos in Spring when they are in leaf.

The alders are the fastest growing and have taken off some stakes but left the tunes in for now.

Probable needs another growing season for the trees to fill out. Slow process but since all trees are now reaching of the tubes I expect the next year or two will have the biggest impact as they take on girth rather than height.

Re the wildflower meadows I am hoping for a good flourish of flowers this year.

johnytwentyten · 16-02-2023 3:27pm

I want to plant some alders to soak up water in the bottom of a field i own, my long term plan is to turn this field in a meadow, currently over run with rushes, I've cut them and will be spraying them with mcpa in 6 weeks, my question is will this affect the alder trees, the window to plant them is getting short so I'm wondering if should just wait till next winter to plant them?

80sDiesel · 17-02-2023 5:15pm

Rabbits, hares and deer will eat at the bark of young alder so if you plant your alder saplings in tree shelters (tubes) it will protect them from them and your spraying. I left a couple of alders as testers without tubes and they are constantly getting knawed at.

gordon029 · 07-10-2023 8:09pm

Hi there I followed this thread with great interest and learnt lots.I am just about to start doing something similar on 10 acres of wet soil.How are all the existing planters on this thread getting on with their choice of trees and would they have any changes to make in their original plans.I couldn’t open the photos posted but they all sounded great.Any advice gratefully appreciated.Thank you for reading

Firblog · 11-10-2023 11:20am

There is now a grant available for planting small areas of native trees Native Tree Area Scheme - Teagasc | Agriculture and Food Development Authority

Water John · 11-10-2023 12:14pm

Firblog, that scheme has a lot of promise. Anyone with a few acres, esp bordering a stream. Up to 2Ha and over €2K/year, nice project.

Firblog · 11-10-2023 1:58pm

Only saw something online about it yesterday, it's been in my head for a while to do something like what the OP has done, so seems very lucky to have found out about this help that's available. Going to Teagasc meeting tonight about it, haven't a clue about anything to do with forestry/farming :D

80sDiesel · 30-01-2024 3:43pm

2024 Updates

I am hoping to remove the remaining stakes this autumn . The trees gain better strength without them. The tree shelters will have to remain in place for a number of more years. That surprises me as their lifetime is 5 years but the trees need more time to grow. I am guessing the growing area ( 350 metres above sea level) slows their growth.

Gloomtastic! · 30-01-2024 5:08pm

^ Brilliant. Well done you, major kudos! 👍

brianiac · 13-02-2024 12:38pm

Thanks for the fantastic thread.

I have a few acres that i had rented our for grazing for a number of years but have taken back under management. I have a notion for the 15 ac field to be a wildflower meadow. Can i get your thoughts on management please?

currently: Some dock/nettle/thistle that were regularly sprayed off by the farmer. Ryegrass predominantly. lightly (he says) fertilised over the past 6 years or so

notion is :

never fertilise

try not spray - will attempt to walk with the slashers and knock back weeds once the flower heads are finished

this year i will try get a cut of silage before end of may (is this realistic?), happy to for someone to do it and have the silage for themselves. Unsure if this is a runner. ie silage wont be god enough/quantity enough to justify someone doing it.

While i have come across suggestions to try take a hay cut in late july/early august, biodiversity ireland suggest last week august/early sept for hay. Again, happy for someone to take it if they pay for the work. q: will a farmer be interested in this?

purpose is to reduce fertility somewhat before...

Then seed yellow rattle in patches throughout.

wildflower seeding after this.

future management - no animals grazing. early cut of silage in may, hay in early September.

Did you spray the land off before seeding the wildflowers? was chain harrowing enough?

i got some wildflower seed from sandro as i converted the front lawn a number of years ago and i was very particular about initially spraying and then burning weed seeds. Took well but dont want to do on a 15ac field for obvious reasons.

I came across a uk website that suggested getting hay made from a wildflower meadow to spread on a project site as it will contain wildflower seeds that will get incorporated to the new site. Any experience of this?

Great projects and love to hear people doing these around the place.

80sDiesel · 15-02-2024 10:42am

Hi.

Remember the end goal is a species rich meadow with around 80% native grasses and the rest native flowers etc.

The 12 acres and another parcel I am starting this year were semi-improved upland meadows. So they had some fert applied but never to my knowledge reseeded.

If yours has ryegrass it is called improved grassland. I have only have knowledge and experience in enhancing semi improved meadows.

For improved meadows, I believe you would need to spray off the whole place and reseed with native grasses and flowers. If the farmer was regularly spraying for docks etc, the land may be very high in fertility so that is also an issue.

I would suggest trying the farmers main forum and inquiring how to go from ryegrass to native.

10-10-20 · 15-02-2024 10:53am

Great thread @80sDiesel ! So how many trees were planted in what acreage and what do you reckon was the success rate with them?

80sDiesel · 15-02-2024 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769939#Comment_121769939

I would say my success rate after installing the tubex guards was 80%. The loss was mainly attributed to the fact that I had a farmer graze sheep as I was also enhancing the meadows so needed them. The sheep would occasionally rub against the stake , knock it over and a hare,rabbit,deer would eat at the exposed bark and kill it. Then the odd one didn't grow probably due to frost etc. But without animals I would have gotten over 95%

I still may lose a tree or two each year until they are no longer reliant on the stakes and can withstand sheep rubbing their arses against the tubes.

But I planted enough so not too bothered.

minerleague · 16-02-2024 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121761528#Comment_121761528

You wont have wildflowers if you cut in May surely as they wont have gone to seed or is that just for this year?

brianiac · 16-02-2024 4:22pm

thanks for response.

The land has been fertilised regularly for the past couple for decades and i think its pretty fertile. My intention this year was to take a couple of cuts to reduce the fertility in the field before attempting to sow yellow rattle into it. I am hoping to cut as early in the year as i can get away with - and that a farmer might feel its worthwhile cutting and baling the grass.

So i actually converted my lawn to wildflowers a few 7 years ago. My own management wasnt great at times as we were renovating the house for a year and various paraphenalia were sitting on it etc but got the seed from Sandro in wildflowers.ie. I completely burned everything off with round up (boo hiss) and sequential flaming of anything that popped up for 5 months until march/april time and sowing happened. looked amazing year one, less riotous now but definitely have a wide range of wildflowers though some creep of grasses i'm intending on whacking. His management specifically talked about starting from a blank slate. And also he specifically directed me to cut and remove cuttings twice a year - once in april/early may and again in sept.

If late may i might agree with you but my understanding is that this early cut will remove grass (and wildflowers) reducing the grasses fertility/vitality and then the wildflowers will be better able respond to that haircut. Now i could be wrong. I have seen videos related to yellow rattle where they suggest only one cutting a year is required when established however they often describe allowing some livestock to graze for a period over the winter months. I believe this is so there isnt a dense hatch lying on the ground, any seed would be exposed to sunlight and the periodic removal of grass (which will have grown overwinter though wildlfowers typically not) to further reduce fertility.

minerleague · 19-02-2024 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776317#Comment_121776317

Would agree with last paragraph about letting light cattle or sheep in to graze off aftergrass before winter. This would be what would have happened years ago on traditional hay meadows. Don't know if your set up for that.

12 acres. Tree plan.

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