Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - Read OP for Mod Warnings

JRant · 29-05-2020 08:16AM

is_that_so wrote: »

Yes, we've all been home-schooled by Google, some not very well. Judgement on what transpired is really a long way off. A lot of what has been said in built around personal frustration, understandable given the likely length of this. Whether you want it to stay until summer's end or to wind it up now somebody must be to blame.

I believe a big factor in these discussions is around the mixed messages we are getting and the fact we have no clear targets to work towards other than arbitrary dates set out in the roadmap. Even the roadmap itself was wishy washy on the criteria for moving phases with NPHET holding the cards very close to their chest.
We still have over another week of the 5km restriction for no other reason than "because". We are told NPHET are using all the data available to make the best health decisions, fine, then tell us the medical or scientific reason for limiting travel to such an extent.

I'm not seeing a lot of science informing decisions to date, in fact the bank holiday weekends seem to have been a bigger factor than anything else when it came to making decisions. Tony & Co have been chastising people for months now about being bold boys and girls, particularly around bank holidays and telling us "we are not where would like to be". We'll see the same during today's briefing with Project Fear being ramped up to 11 again.

prunudo · 29-05-2020 08:19AM

Thing is about that Nphet list, its all doctors and health officials. Now that's not the fault of the members as the boards remit is health based.

But if the country ever finds itself in a similar situation again the group of experts shouldn't be all from one sector. Yes its a health issue but there should be member from other effected sectors to form opinion and advice for the government.

JRant · 29-05-2020 08:27AM

is_that_so wrote: »

So who would you have on it?

It should include experts in geriatric care / nursing homes, residential home representative, teaching experts (Primary, secondary, and Third level). It needs to be a multidisciplinary panel as we have virologist making decisions and closing schools / businesses without the first clue as to how open them back up again.

growleaves · 29-05-2020 08:28AM

Washington officials admit to counting gunshot victims as COVID-19 deaths

Washington epidemiologists have admitted that multiple victims of gunshot wounds who had also been diagnosed with coronavirus have been counted as COVID-19 deaths, although they say deaths from the virus are still likely being undercounted in the state.

road_high · 29-05-2020 08:33AM

Just heard Donohoe on Newstalk. He doesn’t inspire any confidence. Just bleeting the same message as the rest

growleaves · 29-05-2020 08:36AM

The latest CDC weekly report for deaths by flu, pneumonia and Covid shows that the total number of deaths from all causes in 2020 so far is slightly less (by one percent) than the total number of deaths up to this point, on average, in the years 2017-2019.

is_that_so · 29-05-2020 08:38AM

JRant wrote: »

I believe a big factor in these discussions is around the mixed messages we are getting and the fact we have no clear targets to work towards other than arbitrary dates set out in the roadmap. Even the roadmap itself was wishy washy on the criteria for moving phases with NPHET holding the cards very close to their chest.
We still have over another week of the 5km restriction for no other reason than "because". We are told NPHET are using all the data available to make the best health decisions, fine, then tell us the medical or scientific reason for limiting travel to such an extent.

I'm not seeing a lot of science informing decisions to date, in fact the bank holiday weekends seem to have been a bigger factor than anything else when it came to making decisions. Tony & Co have been chastising people for months now about being bold boys and girls, particularly around bank holidays and telling us "we are not where would like to be". We'll see the same during today's briefing with Project Fear being ramped up to 11 again.

I'd expect the CMO & NPHET to keep their cards close to their chests at all times. There are a lot of loose tongues around, even in those who do have expertise.
I have come to accept the extreme caution with which they are approaching this and even the arbitrary 5km makes sense. Most people will respect the limits so they can be more confident that any disease out there may not be travelling around the country. I don't even mind the admonitions, as a people we can be flexible with rules and we do like to "grab a mile" so a bit of finger wagging is often enough.

I think the decisions are science -based but very narrowly focused - on the hand washing, the distancing and limiting locations where it could spread. Sure there's a nervousness or a fear of further outbreaks but I think the point made on that is how difficult it would be to reverse tack.

In general I'm fine with the plan. At the time it was prudent and sensible. I see no reason why we can't go all the way through Phase 1 and probably most of the way through Phase 2. However, at that stage it needs to show that it does have inbuilt flexibility. I think it will remain the plan on paper but with very little in Phase 5 and not that much in Phase 4 IMO will happen as they have been planned.

With the current downward trend the CMO & NPHET will have a much harder time convincing people about ongoing measures.

is_that_so · 29-05-2020 08:45AM

JRant wrote: »

It should include experts in geriatric care / nursing homes, residential home representative, teaching experts (Primary, secondary, and Third level). It needs to be a multidisciplinary panel as we have virologist making decisions and closing schools / businesses without the first clue as to how open them back up again.

Pretty sure it has most of those anyway if you look at the list. I'd disagree on residential home reps, far too likely to be a vested interest.

Naked Lepper · 29-05-2020 08:45AM

is playing football (amateur) coming back on 20th july for sure?
dont see why astro pitches not open sooner if all the leagues are restarting now

amadangomor · 29-05-2020 08:47AM

growleaves wrote: »

The latest CDC weekly report for deaths by flu, pneumonia and Covid shows that the total number of deaths from all causes in 2020 so far is slightly less (by one percent) than the total number of deaths up to this point, on average, in the years 2017-2019.

That document states that the total excess deaths in the US in 2020 ranges from 84,891 to 113,139.

Great for the memory of these people that died that you are downplaying their deaths to serve your own agenda.

is_that_so · 29-05-2020 08:48AM

prunudo wrote: »

Thing is about that Nphet list, its all doctors and health officials. Now that's not the fault of the members as the boards remit is health based.

But if the country ever finds itself in a similar situation again the group of experts shouldn't be all from one sector. Yes its a health issue but there should be member from other effected sectors to form opinion and advice for the government.

That's the idea of a NPHET. It's not a permanent fixture and the MoH forms and dissolves them as required.

Jackman25 · 29-05-2020 08:51AM

amadangomor wrote: »

That document states that the total excess deaths in the US in 2020 ranges from 84,891 to 113,139.

Great for the memory of these people that died that you are downplaying their deaths to serve your own agenda.

Oh FFS.

growleaves · 29-05-2020 08:53AM

That document states that the total excess deaths in the US in 2020 ranges from 84,891 to 113,139.

Yes because as has been stated a million times medical statistics are always inexact estimates.

Great for the memory of these people that died that you are downplaying their deaths to serve your own agenda.

Countless posters have been posting mortality statistics for the last ten weeks. We have a right to know how many people are dying if the counter-measures affect all of us. I'm not disrespecting the dead by posting links to scientific reports of statistical averages.

You're trying every tack now. Maybe you should stick to arguing that medical scientists have a right to rule, that seems like a good one.

Benimar · 29-05-2020 08:54AM

Naked Lepper wrote: »

is playing football (amateur) coming back on 20th july for sure?
dont see why astro pitches not open sooner if all the leagues are restarting now

The facilities can reopen from July 20th (assuming no spike in numbers).

What leagues are restarting now? Certainly no amateur ones.

Ginger n Lemon · 29-05-2020 09:06AM

Breakthrough! Front page of Irish times

"Given the scale of economic carnage and human misery coming over the hill, every arm of the State should be on a war footing to save small businesses. Instead, those in tourism and retail are left exposed on the front line as cannon fodder, as Ireland pursues an economically-reckless scientific experiment to throttle a virus that other European countries are learning to keep at bay."

Although he was slapped down, Michael O’Leary of Ryanair was correct this week to point out some inconsistency. It is a conscious decision to sacrifice the travel and hospitality industries. It could be justified for travel from complacent countries like the US. But why impose this on sensible Europe?

When the Republic was luxuriating in exaggerated self-praise in March for being an early mover on restrictions, people were not told they would be the last in Europe to ease up. It feels akin to a deception. It will also sacrifice retailers."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/small-businesses-are-cannon-fodder-in-zealous-anti-virus-experiment-1.4264850

Definitely can expect accelerating of lifting of restrictions. I d say announcement on 5th of June or even earlier.

is_that_so · 29-05-2020 09:10AM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Breakthrough! Front page of Irish times

"Given the scale of economic carnage and human misery coming over the hill, every arm of the State should be on a war footing to save small businesses. Instead, those in tourism and retail are left exposed on the front line as cannon fodder, as Ireland pursues an economically-reckless scientific experiment to throttle a virus that other European countries are learning to keep at bay."

Although he was slapped down, Michael O’Leary of Ryanair was correct this week to point out some inconsistency. It is a conscious decision to sacrifice the travel and hospitality industries. It could be justified for travel from complacent countries like the US. But why impose this on sensible Europe?

When the Republic was luxuriating in exaggerated self-praise in March for being an early mover on restrictions, people were not told they would be the last in Europe to ease up. It feels akin to a deception. It will also sacrifice retailers."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/small-businesses-are-cannon-fodder-in-zealous-anti-virus-experiment-1.4264850

Definitely can expect accelerating of lifting of restrictions. I d say announcement on 5th of June or even earlier.

That chap has been ranting loudly on that topic for quite some time. The language in it has been smashed out on a keyboard. An article should be crafted to persuade, not used a mallet to force submission to a point of view.

JRant · 29-05-2020 09:10AM

is_that_so wrote: »

I'd expect the CMO & NPHET to keep their cards close to their chests at all times. There are a lot of loose tongues around, even in those who do have expertise.
I have come to accept the extreme caution with which they are approaching this and even the arbitrary 5km makes sense. Most people will respect the limits so they can be more confident that any disease out there may not be travelling around the country. I don't even mind the admonitions, as a people we can be flexible with rules and we do like to "grab a mile" so a bit of finger wagging is often enough.

I think the decisions are science -based but very narrowly focused - on the hand washing, the distancing and limiting locations where it could spread. Sure there's a nervousness or a fear of further outbreaks but I think the point made on that is how difficult it would be to reverse tack.

In general I'm fine with the plan. At the time it was prudent and sensible. I see no reason why we can't go all the way through Phase 1 and probably most of the way through Phase 2. However, at that stage it needs to show that it does have inbuilt flexibility. I think it will remain the plan on paper but with very little in Phase 5 and not that much in Phase 4 IMO will happen as they have been planned.

With the current downward trend the CMO & NPHET will have a much harder time convincing people about ongoing measures.

I'd completely disagree on keeping their cards close to their chests. They are asking people to ruin their own businesses, stunt children's education and a whole raft of other measures so the very least we should expect us complete transparency from them.

Ginger n Lemon · 29-05-2020 09:15AM

JRant wrote: »

I'd completely disagree on keeping their cards close to their chests. They are asking people to ruin their own businesses, stunt children's education and a whole raft of other measures so the very least we should expect us complete transparency from them.

I dont know if this has changed but first couple of RTE episodes reporting deaths, CMO always said "with underlying conditions".

Never actually said x died with cancer, x died with heart disease etc.

Because they always knew, the minute they start saying people with cancer are dying "off covid" they would lose average Joe on the street in terms of fear mongering. Especially when you consider that people with multiple underlying conditions have died also.

But i havent watched Tony ramble for sometime now so dont know if he became more honest there.

growleaves · 29-05-2020 09:17AM

is_that_so wrote: »

That chap has been ranting loudly on that topic for quite some time. The language in it has been smashed out on a keyboard. An article should be crafted to persuade, not used a mallet to force submission to a point of view.

Lol the founder of this site accused people who didn't want to go along with the highly questionable lockdown policy of being murderers. Ironic that you should post your objection here on boards. Yeah the use of words like "iron-clad", "draconian" and "over-caution" are beating us over the head with rhetorical force.

is_that_so · 29-05-2020 09:19AM

JRant wrote: »

I'd completely disagree on keeping their cards close to their chests. They are asking people to ruin their own businesses, stunt children's education and a whole raft of other measures so the very least we should expect us complete transparency from them.

Transparency is generally a good thing but our press have been woeful on this and the usual unnamed leak or off the record briefing pieces is the last thing you need in this situation. Business issues are subject to a lot of other variables, not least viability and how they are run and just how much stunting can 3 months do to a child's education? The chance of them being back in school was always a long shot.

is_that_so · 29-05-2020 09:25AM

growleaves wrote: »

Lol the founder of this site accused people who didn't want to go along with the highly questionable lockdown policy of being murderers. Ironic that you should post your objection here on boards. Yeah the use of words like "iron-clad", "draconian" and "over-caution" are beating us over the head with rhetorical force.

Why wouldn't I comment any more than you chose to comment on my commenting? A poster linked to the article, presumably for comment, and it's what we tend to do here. My view on it is that it is bad journalism. FoT, little as I like what he says most of the time, does good journalism

29-05-2020 09:28AM

I don't spend lots of time reading up on other countries in detail, but I assume Ireland now has the most restrictive lockdown in Europe? And probably for the last number of weeks as well.

Is any other country stuck to a 5KM travel limit?
Are other countries being forced to go 4 months without seeing family?

Our handling of this has been disgraceful.

Ginger n Lemon · 29-05-2020 09:30AM

OMG get these lying clowns out of the government NOW

"Meanwhile, it has been revealed a private hospital in Limerick which the Minister for Health said is 30% full in fact has no inpatients whatsoever.

The Bon Secours Limerick, one of the 19 private hospitals taken over by the HSE at the end of March in order to extend the public health system’s capacity in the face of Covid-19, has had no inpatients (overnight stays) since that deal was signed."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/joe-mchugh-schools-may-not-return-in-september-1002345.html

Bottom of the article.

Seriously - this is just getting beyond farcical now. EMPTY F*ING HOSPITALS

I wont focus on main headline ofcourse, parents could get quite upset.

growleaves · 29-05-2020 09:35AM

Why wouldn't I comment any more than you chose to comment on my commenting?

I'm not saying your commenting here is illogical, I'm saying its ironic in light of the point you're making.

We're awash here in extreme rhetoric where people are being accused of murder, euthanasia, disrespecting the dead, being Nazis etc. for having the wrong policy opinion. Spreaders have been called "vermin".

All potentially harmful to support for the restrictions, if extreme rhetoric un-persuades.

facehugger99 · 29-05-2020 09:45AM

amadangomor wrote: »

This thread is an eye opener. Truest words spoken were the ones about opinions and arseholes.

We really are priviligaged to have the opinions of so may wise people here who have so much more of an insight into a deadly virus than the list of members of NPHET.

Dr Tony Holohan, chief medical officer at the Department of Health.

Prof Colm Bergin, infectious diseases consultant at St James’s Hospital and Professor of Medicine at Trinity College Dublin.

Paul Bolger, director of Department of Health resources division.

Dr Eibhlin Connolly, deputy chief medical officer at the Department of Health.

Tracey Conroy, assistant secretary in the acute hospitals division of the Department of Health.

Dr John Cuddihy, interim director of the Health Protection Surveillance Centre (HPSC).

Dr Cillian de Gascun, director of the National Virus Reference Laboratory in UCD.

Colm Desmond, assistant secretary for corporate legislation, mental health, drugs policy and food safety division in the Department of Health.

Dr Lorraine Doherty, national clinical director for health protection in the HPSC.

Dr Mary Favier, president of the Irish College of General Practitioners.

Dr Ronan Glynn, deputy chief medical officer in the Department of Health.

Fergal Goodman, assistant secretary in the primary care division in the Department of Health.

Dr Colm Henry, HSE chief clinical officer.

Dr Kevin Kelleher, HSE assistant national director of public health.

Marita Kinsella, director of the national patient safety office in the Department of Health.

David Leach, HSE deputy national director of communications.

Dr Kathleen Mac Lellan, assistant secretary in Department of Health social care division.

Dr Jeanette McCallion, Health Products Regulatory Authority (HPRA) medical assessor.

Tom McGuinness, assistant national director at HSE office of emergency planning.

Dr Siobhán Ní Bhrian, HSE lead for integrated care.

Prof Philip Nolan, chair of Irish Epidemiological Modelling Advisory Group and president of Maynooth University.

Kate O’Flaherty, head of health and wellbeing at Department of Health.

Dr Darina O’Flanagan, special adviser to NPHET at Department of Health.

Dr Siobhán O’Sullivan, chief bioethics officer at Department of Health.

Dr Michael Power, national clinical lead of HSE critical care programme and consultant in intensive care medicine at Beaumont Hospital.

Phelim Quinn, chief executive of Health Information and Quality Authority (Hiqa).

Dr Máirín Ryan, deputy chief executive and director of health technology assessment at Hiqa.

Dr Alan Smith, Department of Health deputy chief medical officer.

Dr Breda Smyth, HSE director of health and public health medicine.

David Walsh, HSE national director of community operations.

Deirdre Watters, head of communications at Department of Health.

Liam Woods, HSE national director of acute operations.

Lorraine Doherty, HPSC clinical director for health protection.

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

Micky 32 · 29-05-2020 10:04AM

Penfailed wrote: »

Are you for real? You think people want more death? To what end?

Give over, i guess you can’t tell a tongue in cheek post even though it’s a valid post in my experience.. just like the ‘for real” posts tellling people where they can and can’t travel to and posts telling people to stick to the moronic 5 km rule that you’re so good at despite the facts. Did you put a like on the good news post?

hmmm · 29-05-2020 10:04AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

It's an expert group to advise the government on health implications, your idea that this is somehow a bad thing is ridiculous.

I wouldn't want non-health experts or elected officials on a health advisory group.

ednwireland · 29-05-2020 10:05AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

this is what worries me the most

Idbatterim · 29-05-2020 10:07AM

Jesus, it's clear now more than ever, just how damaging it is to have the morons that run for the dail, that we do !

iamwhoiam · 29-05-2020 10:08AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

If ever there was an example of the dangers of group-think, the above list sums it up perfectly.

A load of single-issue bureaucrats clucking away at each other in a echo-chamber.

There's not one of them that have spent a day working in the real-economy in decades. They can concentrate on covering their arses, safe in the knowledge their gold-plated salaries and pensions will protect them from the coming sh;t-storm.

The rest of us will need to pick up the pieces of the absolute mess they've made of the economy.

I have posted this before , they are like a group of frightened hens in a hen house .All clucking together making each other afraid of the big bad fox . Group thinking is a real phenomena and quite a dangerous thing at times

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - Read OP for Mod Warnings